251 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

Andrastee wrote...

Since that's been cleared up, maybe this is a good place for me to reiterate that the rivalry system is probably the thing I am most looking forward to in DA2. I would have loved to have that kind of option with Morrigan in the first game. (You can sort of almost have it with Sten, and I like that relationship a lot.)

This. So, so, so looking forward to this.

And Dragon Age 2 in general, really.

[David Gaider]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...
David I am guessing you can't divulge much information on it but... Well with this bing essentially a different relationship and not just a dead end does this mean things like companion quests, companion specific gifts, etc. That there could be perhaps rivalry versions of those? I am not sure exactly how well it would work narratively but I am sure some stuff could be thought up.

What's generally going to happen when it comes to companion dialogue/quests is there's either going to be variations within them based on your friendship/rivalry status or they will have unique dialogues for each.

A gift, for instance, could be taken very differently depending on whether a companion is a friend or rival. You give a warrior a sword, for instance, and a friend might react by being grateful. A rival might react by saying, "What? Why do you think I need this? Keep it." There might be different rewards depending on which path you're on, but the idea is that they're both legitimate paths with the potential to reach an end destination (ie. a strong relationship with that companion).

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

Awesome. I am even more looking forward too it (and already was to begin with).

[jesuno]

David Gaider wrote...

What's generally going to happen when it comes to companion dialogue/quests is there's either going to be variations within them based on your friendship/rivalry status or they will have unique dialogues for each.

A gift, for instance, could be taken very differently depending on whether a companion is a friend or rival. You give a warrior a sword, for instance, and a friend might react by being grateful. A rival might react by saying, "What? Why do you think I need this? Keep it." There might be different rewards depending on which path you're on, but the idea is that they're both legitimate paths with the potential to reach an end destination (ie. a strong relationship with that companion).

So, characters will no longer get mad and storm off or attack you, but undermine your efforts from within? Does this extend to combat, ie less responsive when issued a command.

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

What's generally going to happen when it comes to companion dialogue/quests is there's either going to be variations within them based on your friendship/rivalry status or they will have unique dialogues for each.

A gift, for instance, could be taken very differently depending on whether a companion is a friend or rival. You give a warrior a sword, for instance, and a friend might react by being grateful. A rival might react by saying, "What? Why do you think I need this? Keep it." There might be different rewards depending on which path you're on, but the idea is that they're both legitimate paths with the potential to reach an end destination (ie. a strong relationship with that companion).

Is there a category for "friendly rivalry"? That is, despite filosophical disagreement, keep in good graces?

[nightcobra]

jesuno wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

What's generally going to happen when it comes to companion dialogue/quests is there's either going to be variations within them based on your friendship/rivalry status or they will have unique dialogues for each.

A gift, for instance, could be taken very differently depending on whether a companion is a friend or rival. You give a warrior a sword, for instance, and a friend might react by being grateful. A rival might react by saying, "What? Why do you think I need this? Keep it." There might be different rewards depending on which path you're on, but the idea is that they're both legitimate paths with the potential to reach an end destination (ie. a strong relationship with that companion).

So, characters will no longer get mad and storm off or attack you, but undermine your efforts from within? Does this extend to combat, ie less responsive when issued a command.

they could attack you i think, depends on what you do.

[David Gaider]

jesuno wrote...
So, characters will no longer get mad and storm off or attack you, but undermine your efforts from within? Does this extend to combat, ie less responsive when issued a command.

Rivalry can indeed get to a point where you and the companion have it out once and for all-- and then they either leave or you both come to an understanding.

As far as combat goes, no-- a rival will attempt to out-do you, and thus work harder at combat than they normally would. Rivalry gameplay bonuses generally make the companion themselves better in combat... whereas friendship gameplay bonuses generally help the entire party or the PC in particular.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

Thanks for the responses. Now I can bookmark this thread to throw at people later!

[David Gaider]

Xewaka wrote...
Is there a category for "friendly rivalry"? That is, despite filosophical disagreement, keep in good graces?

Rivalry is generally assumed to be "I respect you, but we have our differences". If they didn't feel they were still your friend, or at least owed you, why would they be helping you? This isn't, after all, the situation with the Warden where there's an overriding mission to save the world.

That said, the exact character of a rivalry relationship depends both on the individual companion and the way you interact with them.

[Blastback]

Dang, more I hear about the Friendship/Rivalry system the more excited about it I get.

[jesuno]

David Gaider wrote...

jesuno wrote...
So, characters will no longer get mad and storm off or attack you, but undermine your efforts from within? Does this extend to combat, ie less responsive when issued a command.

Rivalry can indeed get to a point where you and the companion have it out once and for all-- and then they either leave or you both come to an understanding.

As far as combat goes, no-- a rival will attempt to out-do you, and thus work harder at combat than they normally would. Rivalry gameplay bonuses generally make the companion themselves better in combat... whereas friendship gameplay bonuses generally help the party or the PC in combat.

That sounds incredible. One of my favorite moments in Origins was having a one on one with Sten in Haven. But unlike the others that you had to fight, having him grovel at your feet and be told "Get back in line" was the icing on the cake.
"I might be an impoveshied gender that is not supposed to fight, but I knocked you the  **** out." - direct quote from my wife

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

damocles23 wrote...

Friendship/Rivarly system? Why does it look so cool?

Because if you as the player genuinely disagree with the way your companions approach things, and it leads to a conflict, the system no longer forces or encourages you into pandering to them in order to earn their approval and unlock further conversations and gameplay bonuses.

Incidentally this is probably why the reviewer calls it "ditching" the system -- at least that's what their wording would imply. Could be argued from certain standpoint this is right conclusion, given you're now being rewarded in some way no matter what you do.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 décembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Brockololly]

So is there still a visible numerical approval shift to either friendly or rival that you can see? Like having the "Morrigan Disapproves -10" type thing or some sort of tangible metric to clearly see where you stand with the companion? I like the numerical aspect of the approval system in Origins as opposed to something more nebulous like the paragon/renegade bars in Mass Effect.

[RedRoo]

If I can pose a question as a bit of an example:

My Warden disagreed with a lot of Sten's ideology, and often found him occupying the lower strata of the approval meter. But when it came time for his personal quest, he leaped and bounded through the meter and they eventually became good friends. How would this kind of situation work with the new system? If I began to climb the rivalry path with Sten (as seems would be appropriate), would completing the personal quest solidify him in the rivalry path further? Or would it flip over to friendship at that point, despite me still disagreeing with his philosophy?

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
Incidentally this is probably why the reviewer calls it "ditching" the system -- at least that's what their wording would imply. Could be argued from certain standpoint this is right conclusion, given you're now being rewarded in some way no matter what you do.

Well, we did indeed "ditch" the old system-- it would be wrong to imply that we didn't replace it with anything, however. I suppose some might look upon friendship/rivalry as lacking the "win" scenario I mentioned... no matter what, if you have a companion with you long enough you're bound to develop some kind of relationship with them.

Me, I don't think that's a bad thing. I want the player to develop relationships, and I consider it bad design that a character like Morrigan could have been left behind in DAO by so many simply because she disapproved of their actions. An antagonistic friendship is a facet of many inter-character relationships in fiction, and we wanted to see how it might work out.

I don't think it's perfect in every way-- us writers have already discussed things we'd like to modify with it in the future-- but I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...

A gift, for instance, could be taken very differently depending on whether a companion is a friend or rival. You give a warrior a sword, for instance, and a friend might react by being grateful. A rival might react by saying, "What? Why do you think I need this? Keep it.".

Could you respond with a snarky remark like "I have 70 more kills than you and miss the competition."?

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
So is there still a visible numerical approval shift to either friendly or rival that you can see? Like having the "Morrigan Disapproves -10" type thing or some sort of tangible metric to clearly see where you stand with the companion? I like the numerical aspect of the approval system in Origins as opposed to something more nebulous like the paragon/renegade bars in Mass Effect.

There's still a numerical shift, yes, as well as a meter on each follower that shows you how far you've shifted into either the friendship or rivalry part of the spectrum.

Insofar as feedback goes, you still see "Morrigan Friendship +10"... but the opposite is "Morrigan Rivalry +10" instead of "Morrigan Friendship -10" or "Morrigan Disapproves -10". We didn't want the rivalry feedback to show negative numbers as it was felt that would indicate a bad thing or a loss... whereas it's intended as just a different facet of the progression.

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

I am assuming though that it still detracts from the Friendship side though? It isn't like to take an example in Mass Effect where one could be high in both Paragon and Renegade (not that I disliked that. I liked having a mix just an example).

[RyuAzai]

This shifts, that go either +10 friendship or +10 rivalry work against each other right?



Example if I raised Isabela +10 friendship, but then gained +5 Rivalry, would I really just have +5 Friendship?

[Snoteye]

Does this mean you can't lose friendship/rivalry points?

leonia42 wrote...

The rivalry between Gary and Ash wasn't hostile. Just saying.

They're also ten years old. But after Gaider's responses I'm not that worried.

[catabuca]

If handled right this could be a really excellent development of party dynamics. It's much more realistic than the old system, imo (although, of course none of us have seen it in action yet).

I thought Alpha Protocol's system was pretty interesting, where you got different bonuses depending on whether a person liked you or hated you. The game set the idea up early on that you don't always necessarily want to make everyone your friend. I found it far more beneficial to make Darcy hate me, for example.

[Marionetten]

Are rivalry romances possible or are they strictly tied to friendships?

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Me, I don't think that's a bad thing. I want the player to develop relationships, and I consider it bad design that a character like Morrigan could have been left behind in DAO by so many simply because she disapproved of their actions. An antagonistic friendship is a facet of many inter-character relationships in fiction, and we wanted to see how it might work out.

I tend to focus on the story (that includes the relationships with characters) so yes, since this new approach fleshes out the situation where the player and the companion don't get along, i think i'm going to enjoy this.  

That's personal take on it though, at the same time can see if someone was coming to the game with mindset of "you have to make some effort to get a reward" -- like say, having to butter up the NPC to get the bonus -- then they could be disappointed. Still, as you say, i doubt it's possible to make everyone happy so i'll just enjoy the idea some aspect of the game happens to go my preferred way for a change

[upsettingshorts]

catabuca wrote...

I found it far more beneficial to make Darcy hate me, for example.

You would do that, Mikey.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 décembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[David Gaider]

RedRoo wrote...
If I can pose a question as a bit of an example:
My Warden disagreed with a lot of Sten's ideology, and often found him occupying the lower strata of the approval meter. But when it came time for his personal quest, he leaped and bounded through the meter and they eventually became good friends. How would this kind of situation work with the new system? If I began to climb the rivalry path with Sten (as seems would be appropriate), would completing the personal quest solidify him in the rivalry path further? Or would it flip over to friendship at that point, despite me still disagreeing with his philosophy?

It would really depend on how you completed their personal quests. Each follower has multiple quests... and it is indeed possible to complete their quests and get major bonuses for rivalry instead of friendship. The fundamental thing to remember here is that friendship/rivalry is not based on how much the companion likes you. It's based on how aligned you are on the issues that are important to that follower.

Let's say you have a rivalry with Sten. You recover his sword, but choose to spare the man who stole it. Sten hates that, and after giving him back his sword the two of you have a huge argument about the value of life vs. the dictates of the Qun-- perhaps you make some excellent points which make him back off and think, leading to more dialogue later, but that's still a progression along the rivalry path.

It's also possible, however, that despite having edged along rivalry earlier that you agree with Sten and let him execute the thief. He thanks you for understanding, and while he didn't like you much before he's beginning to see you in a new light. You gain friendship points and possibly enough to shift you over onto the friendship path.

You'll note something important there-- "rivalry" may indeed be "we disagree, but for really good reasons". As I've mentioned elsewhere, rivalry is the only path where you can lead a follower to eventually change... not completely, that would be unrealistic, but perhaps change their mind about something very important.