387 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I'd say most customers are indifferent one way or another, and of the minority who post on message boards, people are divided.  But that's pure speculation, granted, DA:O/ME1-2 sold in the millions, and we have - at best - thousands of posters, here and elsewhere.  That doesn't mean it isn't necessarily representative, that's how polling works, but it also means we ought not to take the numbers we see on the forum too seriously.

ziggehunderslash wrote...

If you had the full text then it could have read like a death threat, and would have been contradicted by the voice over, the intent of which was more accurately potrayed by the wheel.

Indeed. 

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 That doesn't mean it isn't necessarily representative, that's how polling works, but it also means we ought not to take the numbers we see on the forum too seriously.

Nah, we're people with a vested interest, and the dynamic of this forum and the nature of forums generally dictates the kind of people who post and continue to post. You'd need a random sample, and we're a ways off.

[upsettingshorts]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Nah, we're people with a vested interest, and the dynamic of this forum and the nature of forums generally dictates the kind of people who post and continue to post. You'd need a random sample, and we're a ways off.

I was referring to "internet forum feedback" in general, not just BSN.  We're more like a focus group here, I think.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Drasanil]

Yellow Words wrote...

Some of the fanbase you see on some forums.. I bet most of their fanbase don't visit this forum on a regular basis. 

Then they're not really a fanbase, yes? More like a largely apathetic player group, kind of like people who don't vote, Bioware could suddenly change DA 2 to DA Furries and they probably still wouldn't care either way

[upsettingshorts]

Drasanil wrote...
Then they're not really a fanbase, yes?

Sure they are.   To use a clumsy political example:  We're members of the party, debating issues that come up in primary elections, and trying to determine which candidate or position best represents our views.  The election will ultimately be decided by a much larger group of less involved, possibly less influential people who ultimately count for more.

The way a customer votes is with his or her wallet.  By definition, someone who buys a Bioware game is a voter.  But their reasons might be broad and may or may not be similar or as esoteric as those more involved in giving feedback to the party.

If a political party only considers the narrow interests of their most core members, they might be in big trouble when election time comes. 

/end clumsy metaphor

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Nah, we're people with a vested interest, and the dynamic of this forum and the nature of forums generally dictates the kind of people who post and continue to post. You'd need a random sample, and we're a ways off.

I was referring to "internet forum feedback" in general, not just BSN.  We're more like a focus group here, I think.

It's one of my personal points of pedantry, I worked in market research for years. I get a sort of mental tic whenever adverts say things like "9 out of 10 people prefer it". I DEMAND METHODOLOGY.

[Addai]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Er, OT: I think the paraphrase system undeniably can be improved, but at the same time I think it has the potential to be much better than the old system. I don't like it when I come across one of those cases where the paraphrase doesn't accurately represent what my character will say, but at the same time when it gets it right I find the conversations become seamless, more involving and very fluid and enjoyable.

There I just have to take people's word for it that that's true, since I don't react that way at all.  But some people enjoy being a passenger in a car, and some people have to be the driver or they're antsy the entire time (*visions of my mom teaching me how to drive*).  This system makes me feel like a passenger, even if I still get to pick which highway we're taking.  It's not just that you can only choose a paraphrase, it's also the voice acting that adds a layer of distance.

I accept I'm a minority, however.  I also don't watch American Idol and tossed Harry Potter aside after half an hour.  It's just sad that DAO proved it could be done well but even as of Awakening the devs were talking about the DAO dialogue system as "broken."

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

There I just have to take people's word for it that that's true, since I don't react that way at all.  But some people enjoy being a passenger in a car, and some people have to be the driver or they're antsy the entire time (*visions of my mom teaching me how to drive*).  This system makes me feel like a passenger, even if I still get to pick which highway we're taking.  It's not just that you can only choose a paraphrase, it's also the voice acting that adds a layer of distance.

See, I've always felt like a passenger in cRPGs. Even before the paraphrased dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist were introduced, it was inevitable that I would eventually prefer them. The distance has, to me, always been implied - even in Baldur's Gate. If games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age 2 make that distance explicit via such features, it can only enhance my gameplay experience.

That doesn't mean I don't get the other approach though, it's just never been for me.

LiamN7 wrote...

Not buying a game can be a vote also.

Sure, but unlike in an election where candidates are paired off, I imagine its harder to evaluate.  I'm not saying it's impossible to do so, just that's kinda why the metaphor is clumsy.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:30 .

[Piecake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Drasanil wrote...
Then they're not really a fanbase, yes?

Sure they are.   To use a clumsy political example:  We're members of the party, debating issues that come up in primary elections, and trying to determine which candidate or position best represents our views.  The election will ultimately be decided by a much larger group of less involved, possibly less influential people who ultimately count for more.

The way a customer votes is with his or her wallet.  By definition, someone who buys a Bioware game is a voter.  But their reasons might be broad and may or may not be similar or as esoteric as those more involved in giving feedback to the party.

If a political party only considers the narrow interests of their most core members, they might be in big trouble when election time comes. 

/end clumsy metaphor

I find that analogy quite disturbing, and it almost makes me not want to post on here anymore just so I'm not affiliated with an extreme fringe

[upsettingshorts]

Piecake wrote...

I find that analogy quite disturbing, and it almost makes me not want to post on here anymore just so I'm not affiliated with an extreme fringe

There are party insiders who are moderates, relax .  In any case, we don't actually have the same influence they do, if we did, we'd be writing big checks with John Epler's name on it, or attending $4000 plate dinners in Edmonton - just so they'd support our position in the legislature development meetings!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Drasanil wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

Some of the fanbase you see on some forums.. I bet most of their fanbase don't visit this forum on a regular basis. 

Then they're not really a fanbase, yes? More like a largely apathetic player group, kind of like people who don't vote, Bioware could suddenly change DA 2 to DA Furries and they probably still wouldn't care either way

Why wouldn't they be part of the fanbase? I'm a fan of a lot of bands and artist but I don't spend hours on their pages or forums. 

And I wont even respond to the 'apathetic' comment as I find it irrelevant. 

[Drasanil]

Yellow Words wrote...

Why wouldn't they be part of the fanbase? I'm a fan of a lot of bands and artist but I don't spend hours on their pages or forums.

 

They're potential consumers, but not really fans, fans normally care enough to have an opinion and voice it. So with regards to those bands/artists you consider yourself  fan of, I'd have to disagree with you, it's doesn't require hours of forums use or what not  but fans normally don't just go "yeah I guess I'll buy it".

And I wont even respond to the 'apathetic' comment as I find it irrelevant. 

It's quite relevant actually, to reference Upsettingshort's voter analogy, it's like trying to appeal to voters who flip a coin to decide whether or not they actually vote and then flip another to decide who they vote for. In other words, it's pointless beause they simply aren't as reliable as your base. There's a reason political parties normally try to fire up their base while trying not to look unappealing to undecided voters, as opposed to the other way around. 

Modifié par Drasanil, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[Kurzan]

Good, but nothing we didn't already know.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

See, I've always felt like a passenger in cRPGs. Even before the paraphrased dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist were introduced, it was inevitable that I would eventually prefer them. The distance has, to me, always been implied - even in Baldur's Gate. If games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age 2 make that distance explicit via such features, it can only enhance my gameplay experience.

I haven't played a lot of other games, so my entry to playing any video game at all was through MUSH which is text-based.  It was actually a revelation for me to play first Bethsoft games and then DAO and get a similar, what I consider a literate and imaginative, experience from a toon game.  Which is why I can spend hours and hours playing them, but if I watch more than a half hour of TV I start wanting to do the dishes or read (much to the marital unit's dismay).  I will even read or do something else while watching a TV show or movie, unless it's really good.  Sitting back and passively watching a screen is like torture.

A video game that seeks to approximate a movie or TV show is thus moving in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.  So I probably just need to accept that I'm the square peg and move on.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Drasanil wrote...

They're potential consumers, but not really fans, fans normally care enough to have an opinion and voice it. So with regards to those bands/artists you consider yourself  fan of, I'd have to disagree with you, it's doesn't require hours of forums use or what not  but fans normally don't just go "yeah I guess I'll buy it". 

I see it in another way: Sure they might buy it without much consideration or research. If it is a brand/product/artist/company they are familiar with and they have built up a trust for during the years. 

Drasanil wrote...


It's quite relevant actually, to reference Upsettingshort's voter analogy, it's like trying to appeal to voters who flip a coin to decide whether or not they actually vote and then flip another to decide who they vote for. In other words, it's pointless beause they simply aren't as reliable as your base. There's a reason political parties normally try to fire up their base while trying not to look unappealing to undecided voters, as opposed to the other way around. 

But not all people, who aren't on the forums, just flip a coin about buying the game. If they have built up a trust for BioWare they might feel like they don't need to spend time on forums or voice their opinions. Or there could just be a lot of happy fans out there who are happy buying a game because there is a BioWare brand on the box. 

[Vylan Antagonist]

Addai67 wrote...
A video game that seeks to approximate a movie or TV show is thus moving in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.  So I probably just need to accept that I'm the square peg and move on.

They've been saying for years that games are becoming big business. Well, the only thing that's changed is the tense. Games are big business. Big name releases require considerable investment. The bigger the investment, the more likely that you are going to exceed the investors' risk tolerance.

The movie industry is a little more mature in this regard: Successful directors are sometimes given substantial leeway to make 'vanity' projects. I don't see that really happening currently in the game industry, even with the Sid Meier's and Will Wrights. I'm not sure that the Activisions and EAs can really afford it.

So games with big budget development costs frequently must appeal to the broadest base possible. The costs of current gen development are just too high not to.

That doesn't mean those other games aren't out there; They just aren't going to come from EA or Activision. For those 'square peg' games, you have to accept that they aren't going to look like $40 million. They are indy games, and they are absolutely made for people like you, the square pegs. Some take off, catching a larger fancy somehow, but they can still afford to take the kind of chances that the major publishers simply can't.

A decent example of a more old school RPG that was recently released would be Knights of the Chalice. Graphically, it's primitive, but the gameplay is remarkably familiar for fans of the SSI Gold Box games. A recent full conversion game worth investigating is Nehrim. It's an excellent example of precisely how good a fan-driven work can really be.

[upsettingshorts]

Did writers/directors/actors get to make vanity projects during the height of the studio system? I mean, we're in the post-Golden Age of Hollywood now... it's a bit different than when films were relatively new and trying to establish themselves as part of the public consciousness. I mean, there's a sense of the auter in game development - there are definitely recognizable names out there - but you're right in that I don't think there are too many examples of a "vanity project."

[Alet]

Drasanil wrote...

They're potential consumers, but not really fans, fans normally care enough to have an opinion and voice it. So with regards to those bands/artists you consider yourself  fan of, I'd have to disagree with you, it's doesn't require hours of forums use or what not  but fans normally don't just go "yeah I guess I'll buy it".

See, I would consider myself a pretty big fan of DA:O, but I didn't participate in the forums at any time.  But I paid money for it, bought most of the DLCs as they came out, got the Mac version so I can run it on my laptop (with hilariously bad performance, but I knew that would happen), I've played through it with several different characters and have like, another half dozen or so playthroughs that I'm looking forward to getting to.  But I only got onto these forums in the past week or so, and really I don't know that I would be bothering to post anything if I didn't have a vested interest in procrastinating for my finals.

There are core fans and fringe fans, sure, but not sharing your enthusiasm with the internet isn't the same as not being enthusiastic.  And honestly?  As far as the monetary success of the company goes (which is necessary so the devs get paid so they can buy food and shelter so they might live to work on more games), there isn't a bit of difference between someone who buys it and plays it once or someone who buys it and plays it every day for a year.  That's not a bad thing.

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Did writers/directors/actors get to make vanity projects during the height of the studio system? I mean, we're in the post-Golden Age of Hollywood now... it's a bit different than when films were relatively new and trying to establish themselves as part of the public consciousness. I mean, there's a sense of the auter in game development - there are definitely recognizable names out there - but you're right in that I don't think there are too many examples of a "vanity project."

Games have never been widely regarded as art. Perhaps the name of the medium does it no favours.

Film and music struggle with the definition because they encompass both a soulless entertainment factory and genuine artists, but gaming seems to have firmly positioned itself as an entertainment industry. That's not to say there isn't strong art involved in it's production, writing and graphics being the most obvious, but pretty much anything in
it's contruction could be considered so, but there are few games that have come across as serious expressionism rather than multiple hours of fun. And when they have (Alan Wake? Not played it myself) they tend to look misplaced and a little silly.

I'm not sure entirely sure who's fault this is. Financially I guess it's harder to take risks because people expect a certain level of polish to games (indie aside this is, but that's a distinct conversation) which you can largely circumnavigate with film and definitely with music, but also I think the market for it is smaller because it's just not something people are used to. We're creatures of habit and I think we're locked into a vicious circle, where the hesitation to take risks leads to a lack of interest in the risks being taken.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Drasanil wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

Why wouldn't they be part of the fanbase? I'm a fan of a lot of bands and artist but I don't spend hours on their pages or forums.

 

They're potential consumers, but not really fans, fans normally care enough to have an opinion and voice it. So with regards to those bands/artists you consider yourself  fan of, I'd have to disagree with you, it's doesn't require hours of forums use or what not  but fans normally don't just go "yeah I guess I'll buy it".

And I wont even respond to the 'apathetic' comment as I find it irrelevant. 

It's quite relevant actually, to reference Upsettingshort's voter analogy, it's like trying to appeal to voters who flip a coin to decide whether or not they actually vote and then flip another to decide who they vote for. In other words, it's pointless beause they simply aren't as reliable as your base. There's a reason political parties normally try to fire up their base while trying not to look unappealing to undecided voters, as opposed to the other way around. 

Think of forums like a sports call in show.

I'm a huge fan of UofK but have never once called into a sports show on radio....

I dont have apathy about the team or about UofK sports, just about the call in show. Some people prefer different mediums of communication.

I'm sure you've heard the sampling of radio chatter, hardcore or vocal fans dont always mean better!

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

I haven't played a lot of other games, so my entry to playing any video game at all was through MUSH which is text-based.  It was actually a revelation for me to play first Bethsoft games and then DAO and get a similar, what I consider a literate and imaginative, experience from a toon game.  Which is why I can spend hours and hours playing them, but if I watch more than a half hour of TV I start wanting to do the dishes or read (much to the marital unit's dismay).  I will even read or do something else while watching a TV show or movie, unless it's really good.  Sitting back and passively watching a screen is like torture.

A video game that seeks to approximate a movie or TV show is thus moving in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.  So I probably just need to accept that I'm the square peg and move on.

I take a different approach.  I don't think a video game's narrative can ever hope to compare to live up to a novel because the video game is essentially limited to just dialogue(not saying that you think it does/can).  It either doesnt have or poorly does description, narration, exposition, introspection, fansy-shmansy literary techniques, and what-not. 

It does, however have access to a visual and audio medium, and I think it should take advantage of that by having visuals work as its description (obviously) and audio/voices to convey the feelings/emotions/reactions(the whole he nervously replied, she screamed in agony, what-have-you) of the character.  I know some people want to provide that reaction themselves, but I cant.  I know what my characters feelings/tone should have been based on the other characters reaction, so Id rather just have it explicity conveyed and not have this disconnect. 

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

I take a different approach.  I don't think a video game's narrative can ever hope to compare to live up to a novel because the video game is essentially limited to just dialogue(not saying that you think it does/can).  It either doesnt have or poorly does description, narration, exposition, introspection, fansy-shmansy literary techniques, and what-not. 

It does, however have access to a visual and audio medium, and I think it should take advantage of that by having visuals work as its description (obviously) and audio/voices to convey the feelings/emotions/reactions(the whole he nervously replied, she screamed in agony, what-have-you) of the character.  I know some people want to provide that reaction themselves, but I cant.  I know what my characters feelings/tone should have been based on the other characters reaction, so Id rather just have it explicity conveyed and not have this disconnect. 

Video game occupy a strange position, having neither the descriptions of novels nor the acting of films. As an interactive medium it has advantages neither has, but it's the rare game that explores them.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Video game occupy a strange position, having neither the descriptions of novels nor the acting of films. As an interactive medium it has advantages neither has, but it's the rare game that expores them.

/immediately runs off to rewatch the LA Noire trailer

[Zeleen]

I am soooo waiting for this !!! she gave a great interview..