387 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Reading a line of dialogue with no emotional inflection and predicting the result is to me, no more prone to error than reading a paraphrase of dialogue when the emotional intent either implied (ME1-2) or explicit (DA:2). There is going to be some error either way

Doesn't that suggest that they should maybe try something different?

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Doesn't that suggest that they should maybe try something different?

Potentially, but I'm not a fan of the most frequently suggested compromises.  Such as a toggle (kitten, plate glass window and all that) or the inclusion of the full line with inflection that is chosen before the protagonist says it (annoyingly repetitious in my view, also options would take longer to evaluate and break the flow of conversations).

Here's where the priority thing kicks in again:  To me, I'd rather ensure that the emotional intent of the line is predicted with accuracy than the precise wording or particular action that intent triggers.  The consequence of the choice is what's important to me, and in addition witnessing my character conversing on the same level as everyone around him is a key factor in personal immersion.  My whole "all text" or "all voice" thing, I mean.   

In that way I'm basically the opposite of Addai's description above, in that when I'm playing a game with a silent protagonist, I begin to have the same thoughts about walking away and doing laundry - because to me it's no better than talking head theater.  Internal consistency is extremely important to me. 

Books, and full text, can be read at the reader's own pace and it never feels odd to impose your own cadence on the dialogue within the text. I don't view films, or visual media, in the same way.  If I'm witnessing a conversation take place, I do not want to drag out the gap between lines - that's one of the other reasons why the paraphrase works for me, it allows me to evaluate quickly - though not without the possibility of error - but I view the tradeoff as acceptable, given my instances of genuine head-scratcher errors is extremely low, and the fun I get out of being part of a well simulated conversation is very high.

I mean, we could go back and forth all night on the subject of trying to come up with a dialogue system that would please everybody but I'm not confident we'd be successful.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The best suggestion I've heard so far is the appearance of the full-text when hovering over an option when the subtitles are turned on.

That's a toggle that already exists, so no kitten problem there, and the text already exists in the subtitle files, so this solution doesn't require any content actually be added to the game.

With regard to the emotional intent, I found in Mass Effect that the emotional intent wasn't just hard to predict, but there was almost never an option that was delivered in a way I would like. So seeing the emotional content there wouldn't have helped - it just would have broken the dialogue system sooner.

That's why I prefer the silent PC. No VO prevents the VO from breaking my character concept.

[upsettingshorts]

That makes me think, I think in cRPGs we arrive at character concepts very differently. I sort of start with an idea, a very simple one, like: "doesn't take himself or life too seriously." And then my character is built through the options given to me by the game from that idea.

So when I go get Dog out of the larder, I might not have imagined that he'd sass Nan with the line given, but since that was the sass line, that's what my character goes with.  In many ways I played DA:O similarly to Mass Effect, in that I had an idea of which direction I'd be pointing the dialogue wheel, as it were, only it was a tree system and the options weren't labeled in the same way.  I still intended to choose from a more or less predetermined path, and that's always been my approach.

It's hard to explain, but I don't really build characters without parts actually supplied by the game. The notion that it - your character - simply isn't in conflict with the game and built from without isn't my approach to cRPGs. So in your Mass Effect example, that wasn't really the issue for me. In that sense, the silent protagonist doesn't add anything for me - it can only detract from my experience.

My issues with ME1-2 are with the dichotomy of Paragon/Renegade and the inconsistency I feel exists within those options. It isn't - to me - a problem with the paraphrase system voiced protagonist, or dialogue wheel itself, but the nature of the other system and the writing behind it.  It's a little in conflict with my approach, I admit, but I think it's a result of the necessity of playing the game one way or another to unlock additional options that leads to that issue.  I can't decide "this Shepard is going to be a coldly expedient problem solver" and then mix and match my Paragon options that don't violate that notion, and ignore the Renegade options that are angry or psychopathic - the system doesn't allow for it without cheating.  Therefore I cheat liberally and my experience is back to the style I prefer.  

I don't expect DA:2 to have the same issues because it doesn't have the same restriction, though it may end up having ones of its own, I can't know until I've played it - probably not until after I've replayed it a few times.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The best suggestion I've heard so far is the appearance of the full-text when hovering over an option when the subtitles are turned on.
That's a toggle that already exists, so no kitten problem there, and the text already exists in the subtitle files, so this solution doesn't require any content actually be added to the game.

All that being said, I wouldn't hate this. I could fall back on the "but, but development resources could go elsewhere" argument, but I strongly dislike those as they lead to nowhere. If it was implemented it wouldn't bother me a bit, I just wouldn't use it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Shinian2 wrote...

She kinda reminds me of Felicia Day  

<_<

[KalDurenik]

sure it was a good interview but sadly it just showed everything that is "wrong" in my eyes with the game :'(. And how in the world did ANYONE mess up that gay rogues dialogue? Some might remember "SIGH" from a certain Bioware game. But oh well the wheel make me feel disconnected from the character and more like im watching a movie where i can select choices.

I dont see why they cant make the game responsive and still tactical without all the ninja moves?

Modifié par KalDurenik, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Snoteye]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The best suggestion I've heard so far is the appearance of the full-text when hovering over an option when the subtitles are turned on. That's a toggle that already exists, so no kitten problem there, and the text already exists in the subtitle files, so this solution doesn't require any content actually be added to the game.

I'm not convinced this is a good idea.

If you can't toggle that behaviour (hidden full-text) then it will annoy the people who don't want it, however well the interface handles it (and butterfly of optimism that I am, a smooth interface for something like that is hard to imagine). The people that do want it will be happy for being heard but personally I'd rather be without unless the interface handled it exceptionally well (see above).

If you can toggle it... what's the point? They could just make it a paraphrase-only or full-text toggle instead, that would please both parties and eliminate the need for a special purpose interface (they might need two different ones but could simply reuse tried and tested approaches). It won't get in the way for those that don't want it and those that do won't have to do anything to reveal hidden text.

Keying the behaviour to the subtitle toggle feels like giving that toggle more responsibility than it should have. I imagine I'd enable subtitles even if I were a native English speaker because sometimes the audio is bad or there's background noise or you're not paying attention or whatever, but either way I don't need them in order to decode situations and that's precisely why I want full-text dialogues. If I didn't play with subtitles I'd still want full-text dialogues.

There should be a toggle to toggle the behaviour of the subtitle toggle between toggling subtitles with full-text dialogue or only subtitles, leaving the full-text toggling to a separate full-text toggle.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

With regard to the emotional intent, I found in Mass Effect that the emotional intent wasn't just hard to predict, but there was almost never an option that was delivered in a way I would like.

[Shoot Conrad]

Modifié par Snoteye, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Xewaka]

Snoteye wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The best suggestion I've heard so far is the appearance of the full-text when hovering over an option when the subtitles are turned on. That's a toggle that already exists, so no kitten problem there, and the text already exists in the subtitle files, so this solution doesn't require any content actually be added to the game.

I'm not convinced this is a good idea.

If you can't toggle that behaviour (hidden full-text) then it will annoy the people who don't want it, however well the interface handles it (and butterfly of optimism that I am, a smooth interface for something like that is hard to imagine). The people that do want it will be happy for being heard but personally I'd rather be without unless the interface handled it exceptionally well (see above).

If you can toggle it... what's the point? They could just make it a paraphrase-only or full-text toggle instead, that would please both parties and eliminate the need for a special purpose interface (they might need two different ones but could simply reuse tried and tested approaches). It won't get in the way for those that don't want it and those that do won't have to do anything to reveal hidden text.

Keying the behaviour to the subtitle toggle feels like giving that toggle more responsibility than it should have. I imagine I'd enable subtitles even if I were a native English speaker because sometimes the audio is bad or there's background noise or you're not paying attention or whatever, but either way I don't need them in order to decode situations and that's precisely why I want full-text dialogues. If I didn't play with subtitles I'd still want full-text dialogues.

There should be a toggle to toggle the behaviour of the subtitle toggle between toggling subtitles with full-text dialogue or only subtitles, leaving the full-text toggling to a separate full-text toggle.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

With regard to the emotional intent, I found in Mass Effect that the emotional intent wasn't just hard to predict, but there was almost never an option that was delivered in a way I would like.

[Shoot Conrad]

I'd like to point out an additional concern that usually is ignored on the wheel: Localizations. A short paraphrase is usually harder and more easily misinterpreted by a translator than a full phrase. If you think you had it bad on ME, try with paraphrases that are triple guessed (i.e. You have to guess what the transaltor guessed the paraphrase would say). It's maddening.
I ended up ignoring the paraphrase completely because it had zero information for my choice.

[Maria Caliban]

KalDurenik wrote...

I dont see why they cant make the game responsive and still tactical without all the ninja moves?

They could. They don't want to.

Xewaka wrote...


I'd like to point out an additional concern that usually is ignored on the wheel: Localizations. A short paraphrase is usually harder and more easily misinterpreted by a translator than a full phrase. If you think you had it bad on ME, try with paraphrases that are triple guessed (i.e. You have to guess what the transaltor guessed the paraphrase would say). It's maddening.

I ended up ignoring the paraphrase completely because it had zero information for my choice.

This is a great concern. Why not start a new thread about it in 5-7 hours?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[twincast]

Well, she comes across as very likeable, but even her overflowing enthusiasm can't make me like changes I vehemently dislike.

[SphereofSilence]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I also hated the heavy and massive armors. Having high gothic platemail does not convey the feeling of a 'rough' nation 'one bad day away from reverting to barbarism.'

Yeah. In my mind, medium armors such as scale armor, splint armor and chainmail are the most the elite would carry, anything beyond that ought to be reserved for the king

[TRSniper4]

Hmmm... I definitely feel better about the game now. I think at this point, the only things I'm disappointed with are:

1. The new hurlock appearance

2. It will be shorter than DA:O, apparently.

3. I heard rumors that we're not getting a codex, or at least getting one with less entries(?)



I've seen the other kind of changes so often in other RPGs that I'm almost used to it. Besides, Heather is cute .

[Vylan Antagonist]

It's a nice change that this interview didn't get me sloshed playing the DA2 PR Drinking Game. She did still get in the usual pokes at the previous game (shuffling combat), which continues to hit me the wrong way. The previous game was a sales success and earned a following, so I guess I just don't see the necessity to slag it in order to emphasize what Bioware wants to tout as improvements. It isn't an approach generally followed in any other product lines:

"Yes, while the previous model of Prius was tremendously successful, ugh, the acceleration was awful, like shuffle, shuffle, vroom and the interior was terribly bland and washed out looking. I mean, yuck!"

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

TRSniper4 wrote...

3. I heard rumors that we're not getting a codex, or at least getting one with less entries(?) 

I don't know about number of entries, but I believe that Bioware has said we're getting a Codex - and the entries are actually getting bloody titles this time as opposed to a numbered, random selection of options resembling an advent calendar.

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

The previous game was a sales success and earned a following, so I guess I just don't see the necessity to slag it in order to emphasize what Bioware wants to tout as improvements.

It was a financial and critical success, but that doesn't mean it didn't have issues - they're drawing attention to them because they've made an effort to address them in the sequel.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It was a financial and critical success, but that doesn't mean it didn't have issues - they're drawing attention to them because they've made an effort to address them in the sequel.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

It seems reasonable to you because you agree with their summary of the old combat system. I don't, and as should be evident from the people that are also leery of the combat revamp, neither do at least a portion of their old fanbase. It isn't necessary to bag on the old game to emphasize improvements in the sequel, and in fact doing so may slightly alienate some of their old audience, so why do it?

[upsettingshorts]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

It seems reasonable to you because you agree with their summary of the old combat system. I don't, and as should be evident from the people that are also leery of the combat revamp, neither do at least a portion of their old fanbase. It isn't necessary to bag on the old game to emphasize improvements in the sequel, and in fact doing so may slightly alienate some of their old audience, so why do it?

Because maybe it represents their views on the old system as opposed to say, mine or yours?  Marketing is mostly nonsense, but any bits of it I can gleam that sound like honesty, I value - and their evaluation of DA:O's combat system sounds like something they actually believe - in contrast to the silly "think like a General" stuff.  I could be wrong of course, that's just the impression I get.

[Shepard Lives]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The best suggestion I've heard so far is the appearance of the full-text when hovering over an option when the subtitles are turned on.

Quoted for truth. I've advocated this idea ever since the dialogue wheel was announced.

That's why I prefer the silent PC. No VO prevents the VO from breaking my character concept.

This kind of surprised me, actually. I'd have thought you to be more along the lines of "either everyone is voiced or no one is".

Modifié par shepard_lives, 02 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Because maybe it represents their views on the old system as opposed to say, mine or yours?  Marketing is mostly nonsense, but any bits of it I can gleam that sound like honesty, I value - and their evaluation of DA:O's combat system sounds like something they actually believe - in contrast to the silly "think like a General" stuff.  I could be wrong of course, that's just the impression I get.

Even if that was true, which is purely speculation, obviously, again, there's no need. There's a reason Tide doesn't slag their old detergent when selling a new brand. There's a reason that even Coke didn't slag New Coke when they phased it out and removed the prefix from classic Coke. Some people liked new coke. Some people liked the old Tide (or whatever). By denigrating those old products, you are in turn criticizing the tastes of some of your market, which is just a terrible idea. Heck, to this day, I'm pretty sure Ford has not criticized the Pinto.


The 'shuffle, shuffle, poke' style of combat is still well regarded by many. It was featured in many of Bioware's most successful games. They should be able to sell their newest game without mocking it.

[upsettingshorts]

Fair enough.

[Addai]

Thandal NLyman wrote...

@Addai; I guess unless you actually experienced your PC punching-out an NPC simply because you chose the dialogue option: "This conversation is over.", you wouldn't understand the need for some indication of the tone and emotional content of the options. I don't view an emoticon (and I agree, that's what it is) and a phrase that gives an idea of the dialogue to follow as "dumbing-down."

The only reason to see it that way is if, instead, you think the entire conversation (with editorial explanation for tone and demeanor) should be provided in advance of your making a selection. Otherwise, (as with email and IM) the opportunities to be mistakenly perceived as "flirty", or "hostile", or "indifferent", are legion!

Well I'm not saying that the emoticons dumb down Mass Effect's system or aren't an improvement on that.  I'm saying that the dialogue wheel with a paraphrase dumbs down Dragon Age.  At least insofar as it requires player engagement in the diaolgue.  Pointing at a general response indicator is more mindless than having to read and analyze written text and choose the one that best represents what you want your character to say.  How is this not obvious?  It's even touted as such, e.g. the one dev interview that talked about "reading and analyzing" responses as a negative in DAO.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Pointing at a general response indicator is more mindless than having to read and analyze written text and choose the one that best represents what you want your character to say.  How is this not obvious?

Because people have different approaches and expectations - it might be "dumber" to you, but it sure as hell isn't "dumber" to me - and every single time someone even implies that someone must be less intelligent, or put less thought  into something in order to possibly approve of a feature, I lose a little bit of my sanity.

Addai67 wrote...

It's even touted as such, e.g. the one dev interview that talked about "reading and analyzing" responses as a negative in DAO.

I couldn't care less what their marketing says.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Pointing at a general response indicator is more mindless than having to read and analyze written text and choose the one that best represents what you want your character to say.  How is this not obvious?

Because people have different approaches and expectations - it might be "dumber" to you, but it sure as hell isn't "dumber" to me - and every single time someone even implies that someone must be less intelligent, or put less thought  into something in order to possibly approve of a feature, I lose a little bit of my sanity.

I understand that you prefer it, but that doesn't change the fact that the system itself is more mindless.  That is not to say that you or anyone else is less intelligent.  Don't put words in my mouth.  But the system is obviously intended to make selecting dialogue options less cognitive and more "point and shoot."

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

the fact that the system itself is more mindless.

Addai67 wrote

That is not to say that you or anyone else is less intelligent.  Don't put words in my mouth.

And how would you expect me to interpret this?  Despite the fact I prefer the paraphrased dialogue wheel, I can read.

Addai67 wrote...

But the system is obviously intended to make selecting dialogue options less cognitive and more "point and shoot."

Why do I even bother explaining, at length, the benefits of the system at all?  By all means, continue with your biased, simplistic interpretation if it makes you feel better. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my leave before I put my fist through my monitor.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Addai]

And why do you expect me to like the system because you do, or to call the sky orange? "Point and shoot" is an advantage to some people, I recognize that. I just don't like it myself and consider it a big step down from Origins.

I'm sure the writing will still be as good as Origins, but if I'm less engaged in what is going on, I'm not going to enjoy it as much. That's just the way it works. Enjoy the fact that your preferred system is now the way BioWare is going to make all its games. That should make you happy. And excuse me if I don't feel sorry for you having to defend the change.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:48 .