41 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserSaucy]

Just finished my first playthrough of this & overall i think it's a great game, it looks great, has some good characters, plenty to do, lots to read about the history and culture of fereldan and other country's, and a good story.....except with Morrigan in my view

SPOILERS RIGHT THE WAY THROUGH --------------








My problem with the Morrigan story is this.....She and Flemeth seem to have come up with the plan of performing the ritual on the eve of battle with the archdemon so her foetus would be possessed by the soul of the old god/archdemon, very early in the game & that is the premise for Flemeth saving you & alistair & for insisting Morrigan goes with you.

But how incredibly unlikely would it be that a grey warden of all people, would agree to a plan which would see their child possessed by an old god.....something which could be corrupted by the darkspawn and made into an arch demon, or which could cause untold havoc itself.  Especially considering it would be raised by Morrigan with her cold "survival of the fittest" approach to everything and contempt for things like love and compassion?

So her story starts off on a very unlikely and weak premise.  There is a circumstance which can arise which takes Morrigans story beyond the territory of the very unlikely & into the land of ridiculous.

That happens if you romance Morrigan through the game & your character shows her real affection.  Now if you refuse to go through with her ritual, she then basically asks you to have a word with one of the other wardens and persuade them to screw her so she can conceive her little monster.  If your character has had a relationship with Morrigan & has already refused to countenance her idea......doesnt it seem silly for her to then ask again, but this time asking the man she's in a relationship with to ask either his friend, or the man he reviles most in the world, the man who has tried to murder him and his companions again and again to screw her?

I think the whole Morrigan story is badly flawed.


Apart from that i only have a few minor issues like......why is your character forced into being a warden when it's not even neccesary for them to strike the final blow as someone else can do it?  Wouldnt a rebellious character be likely to tell duncan to shove his rite of conscription? that's what i wanted to do.

I didnt like the fact the game actually ended, rather than you being allowed to wander round and revisit places to see how they have changed, catch up with your companions, finish side quests.  Actually that's not such a minor issue & i hope that bioware change it for DAO 2.  If they dont it would seriously dent my enthusiasm for the game, bethesda goofed when they did the same thing with Fallout 3, although they did fix it in the broken steel dlc.

You should have a house & somewhere to store your things, and that should have been sorted in a free patch rather than DLC.

It's cumbersome in combat to cycle through people to administer health potions, for DA2 bioware should consider allowing the player to put potions in the companions inventory, which they can administer themselves as needed.

The difficulty levels.......are a bit mad, casual is a doddle, but many times in normal, i would run into a room & my whole party would be frozen or stunned instantly & then cut down before they could get in one attack!!  That's insanely frustrating.  The difficulty needs to walk a fine line between challenging & insane, as it was i played through on normal, but had to switch to casual on maybe a dozen occasions because i was repeatedly butchered within 10 seconds in certain confrontations....and not always with bossess, it happened with random encounters and regular enemy's too.  Normal on DAO is as tough as veteran on the mass effects, easily.

And do the mage hoods really need those silly tufts on the back?  My character was too fashion concious to let his companions wear one.


That may seem a longish list for a game i said was great, but if i wrote about all that was good in this game i would be typing until next week.  These are the only things that really bugged me, the Morrigan story in particular.

A quick question for anyone who's made it this far & has witch hunt.......does the story in that DLC differ depending on whether your character allowed her to perform the ritual on the eve of the final battle, or whether he refused her?

And how much game time is it? I've only gotten one piece of bioware dlc yet - lair of the shadow broker, thought it was good, but very short.

Modifié par KaiserSaucy, 01 décembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[Ferretinabun]

KaiserSaucy wrote...
But how incredibly unlikely would it be that a grey warden of all people, would agree to a plan which would see their child possessed by an old god.....something which could be corrupted by the darkspawn and made into an arch demon, or which could cause untold havoc itself.  Especially considering it would be raised by Morrigan with her cold "survival of the fittest" approach to everything and contempt for things like love and compassion?

Well perhaps not 'likely'. It's a gamble. But one Morrigan (and apparently Flemeth too) is willing to take. She has a chance to become the mother of a reborn God. For someone who craves power so much, that's like winning the lottery 100 times over. I think Morrigan'd do anything to make it happen, no matter the odds of success - snap up any chance, no matter how slim. Do you really think it'd be more plausible for her to figure her chances of convincing the Warden are probably low and therefore not bother? To just give up on the whole God-baby plan?

That happens if you romance Morrigan through the game & your character shows her real affection.  Now if you refuse to go through with her ritual, she then basically asks you to have a word with one of the other wardens and persuade them to screw her so she can conceive her little monster.  If your character has had a relationship with Morrigan & has already refused to countenance her idea......doesnt it seem silly for her to then ask again, but this time asking the man she's in a relationship with to ask either his friend, or the man he reviles most in the world, the man who has tried to murder him and his companions again and again to screw her?

Again, there's nothing Morrigan craves more than power, and this plan is a dream opportunity she's determined to see come to fruition. She'll sleep with anyone able to give her the baby, and will even sacrifice being with the warden she loves (if she does) to reach her goals. I don't see this as implausible as much as revealing about her character. And though, if you refused, the odds of you talking Alistair/Loghain into doing the deed are probably low, again it's a chance - and for Morrigan any chance is one worth taking.

Apart from that i only have a few minor issues like......why is your character forced into being a warden when it's not even neccesary for them to strike the final blow as someone else can do it?  Wouldnt a rebellious character be likely to tell duncan to shove his rite of conscription? that's what i wanted to do.

I can sympathise that there is no option to refuse to be a warden. But that'd be kinda game-breaking. And as Riordan explains there are 'compelling reasons to have as many wardens no hand as possible' - the more wardens, the greater the chance of killing the archdemon.

You should have a house & somewhere to store your things, and that should have been sorted in a free patch rather than DLC.

Yes, that's fair. It did feel like an oversight.

It's cumbersome in combat to cycle through people to administer health potions, for DA2 bioware should consider allowing the player to put potions in the companions inventory, which they can administer themselves as needed.

You can set your companions to heal themselves through the tactics screen. Just put Health - Less than 50 (for example) - Use least powerful health poultice.

The difficulty levels.......are a bit mad, casual is a doddle, but many times in normal, i would run into a room & my whole party would be frozen or stunned instantly & then cut down before they could get in one attack!!  That's insanely frustrating.  The difficulty needs to walk a fine line between challenging & insane, as it was i played through on normal, but had to switch to casual on maybe a dozen occasions because i was repeatedly butchered within 10 seconds in certain confrontations....and not always with bossess, it happened with random encounters and regular enemy's too.  Normal on DAO is as tough as veteran on the mass effects, easily.

Difficulty is something I actually have a fair bit of sympathy with game designers on. Difficulty of a game is determined by so many factors, including the experience of the player, which is totally beyond their control. There are people who have played the game many times and now find it easy even on nightmare.

And do the mage hoods really need those silly tufts on the back?  My character was too fashion concious to let his companions wear one.

YES! Totally with you on that one! In fact I never give any of my characters headgead as it always looks kinda goofy, but the mages drew an exceptionally short straw there. Can't stand any of the hoods.

A quick question for anyone who's made it this far & has witch hunt.......does the story in that DLC differ depending on whether your character allowed her to perform the ritual on the eve of the final battle, or whether he refused her?

Hardly. It alters her attitude on meeting you (slightly). But you don't actually see or feel any ramifications of her having the baby (or not) yet. It's kinda left as a dangling plot thread why she wanted it and what she's going to do with it, presumably for sequels to build on. Witch Hunt disappointed a lot of players by promising answers to these questions and failing to deliver.

And how much game time is it? I've only gotten one piece of bioware dlc yet - lair of the shadow broker, thought it was good, but very short.

1-2 hours. All the Dragon Age DLC seems short. Interesting, a fun ride (brilliant companions considering they're one-game temps) and surprisingly tongue-in-cheek. But not terribly long and not terribly challenging either.

[SFWhite]

The Morrigan story bugged me too, but for another reason: Flemeth saves us last two wardens from certain death, nurses us back to health, encourages us, gives us her daughter, tells us all her hopes are riding on us, etc., etc... then we're supposed to kill her just because Morrigan says so? If anyone's stood back and noticed, Morrigan is a rather unpleasant piece of work. Sure, she has good reason, what with growing up creepy and all, but... sheesh!



The only answer I would really like to give is to step out of it and let them fight. If you talk to Flemeth, you actually have that option, but if I'm not playing a mage, that leaves my party crippled... well, I assume... since Morrigan would probably pick up her reagents, pack up her nasty world view and hike off to elsewhere.



Honestly, not a single mage character I've played would miss her.

[KaiserSaucy]

Ferretinabun - cheers for your thoughts on this


Your point about Flemeth and Morrigan clutching at straws and taking any chance is a good one.  I suppose i felt that Morrigan had a very pragmatic world view & was quite blunt and honest about things, so not really the sort of character who would be so out there and completely illogical about things.  Although the point you made is probably where Bioware were coming from, but it still seems at odds with Morrigans character.

I can see why people would be let down with witch hunt given what you've said.  I only read the advertising bumf on biowares site & it pretty much promised it would provide answers to a lot of the questions about what happened to Morrigan.  Given that the central reason to her leaving was either having her god baby & wanting to raise it without interferance, or that she was angry with your character for denying her the chance to have that baby, it seems like a major cop out if witch hunt didnt revolve around that choice.  Surely where Morrigan is and what she's been doing would be radically different depending on whether she had the god baby or whether your character refused to allow the ritual with him or anyone else?

I dont think i'll bother with it in that case, the 2hrs playtime puts me off too.  Lair of the shadow broker was good, but i think it was over priced for what it is.  Although if it turns out to be something which gives shepherd certain benefits in ME3 and alters the story, i suppose that would be worth it.

About the difficulty settings, i know there are a lot of variables to take into account but even so, i think there is a big gulf between the different settings.  I may get used to it though, i found normal on the mass effects a decent challenge on my first playthrough, on my last playthrough i did it on hardcore.  I dont mind games that give you a real challenge, if something is too easy then it's no fun.  But i suppose it was the way my party died so often that wound me up, more than the fact they did die.  If i get a fighting chance and get killed that's ok, but when you get stunned instantly & wiped out in 10 seconds, before you can even fire off one spell.......that's hard to take because no amount of skill will prevent that or give you a fighting chance.

On the health potions......doh  I cant believe i didnt think to check in the tactics section!!  I didnt personalise tactics, just used the presets so i didnt notice it could be sorted out in there....should have explored the settings more, thanks for the info though, that should make things easier.

For the second reply:

I admit i didnt use Morrigan much as i was a mage.  Wynne, being a spirit healer, took care of healing & my character handled the offensive spells while my rogue and warrior would fight up close.

In a way your pushed into who you can use, you need a healer with you....so that's wynne.  You need a rogue, you need a warrior & if your a spellcaster, that means you dont really need Morrigan, unless you take out an unbalanced party ie 3 mages and a rogue. 

I started another game as a human noble rogue last night, i was surprised that the origins mission for that is so short compared to the mages origin.  I've only gone as far as ostagar and im already missing my spells though, so i might cave and just have another mage game, maybe as an elf to see if that alters things for the character.

Modifié par KaiserSaucy, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:49 .

[Kajan451]

My problem with the Morrigan story is this.....She and Flemeth seem to have come up with the plan of performing the ritual on the eve of battle with the archdemon so her foetus would be possessed by the soul of the old god/archdemon, very early in the game & that is the premise for Flemeth saving you & alistair & for insisting Morrigan goes with you.

But how incredibly unlikely would it be that a grey warden of all people, would agree to a plan which would see their child possessed by an old god

... And life? One night with a beautiful woman and you will live? Your friends and yourself will survive what was a deathsentence?

Its really that hard to understand that persons who actually consider everyone to be selfish and egoistic to want to save their lives?

And seriously... the first time i played through that game... my Warden gladly accepted it, not only because he romanced Morrigan, but also because it would make him life to see another day and protect his friend Alistair from death.

The child can always be tracked down. The two times i did this route, both of which i had an dalish elf who had never a choice but to join the wardens, it was clear to me that my character would never stop hunting Morrigan down. First time, because she was his lover, and the 2nd time... because she was a good friend.

And Seriously... in RL... Sex and death postopened and an uncertain future vs certain Death for me or my battlebrother? Is there really an argument to be had which one to choose?

Besides... i am kind of sure Flemeth knew Alistair and the Warden are new to the whole thing. They give it away a couple times. So why not assume that someone who isn't as indoctrinated on the whole thing as other warden to not want to die?

.....something which could be corrupted by the darkspawn and made into an arch demon, or which could cause untold havoc itself.

I'd say, wait till you played Awakenings, even though i think the Addon isn't that good, but the choice presented there is much harder in my opinion.

Morrigan is someone you might have become a friend or a lover with. She might be cold, but if you get to know her, she is a real friend and even after playing Witchhunt i am still convinced she remains loyal to the Warden.

The times i really did do the Ritual are also the times my Warden did it because he had faith in Morrigan. My question would rather be... why wouldn't a Warden perform that ritual... a Baby is so much easier to kill. Hunting Morrigan down before the baby is grown up... that gives you a good... 5 to 10 years... before that baby gets even an issue, being able to look after it self...

More than enough time to gather up other Wardens and track her down. She can then be interrogated, questioned and the baby taken into custody.. and rised by the wardens. If it turns out to be an Archdemon... you put it to the sword... if it really is that powerful... congratulations your Warden just has had his hand in giving the Warden one of their most powerful weapons against the Darkspawn.

So her story starts off on a very unlikely and weak premise.

Counting on other people putting their survival ahead of others? Thats a weak premise for someone with a cold, survival of the fittest outlook on the world?

into the land of ridiculous

Not as ridiculous as the existance of the Warden themselves. In a couple thousand years, not one Warden spilled their secret? Noone, except the Wardens know why they do what they do? Not one of them ever got drunk and told the whole thing in a tavern in his drunken dellusions?

Or as likely as a Warden being allowed to take royal blood into the wardens? Rite of Conscription or no... Alistair is after all of Royalblood, giving the Wardens a legitamate claim on the throne.

Not to speak about a couple other of the companions... like Ohgrim... who doesn't even seem to care you actually kill the wife he has been chasing for 2 years. He griefs and sobs... is even thrown out as warrior because he keeps making trouble because of his wife... and in the end... he just kills her and joins up with you for good.

Morrigan and Flemeth with their Survival of the Fittest point of view do have rather one of the more "logic" reasons for their joining. All they had to do is go with them and offer the ritual at the eve of battle. If the Warden does not pick it up... she can offer it to some other warden present. One of the Warden present might just go ahead with it... and if not?

What is it to Flemeth? She will just wait for the next blight and send her Apprentice to the Wardens again.... sooner or later one Warden will be among them who thinks he can always worry about this details later, after the blight has been stopped.

[Alamar2078]

As far as the difficulty levels go I feel your pain. My first builds were fairly horrid / gear was bad / Choice of companions was questionable / I chose my quests in an order that wasn't helpful / etc. I made every mistake you could make. Therefore I got frustrated with the game and after I slugged my way through I didn't play again for MONTHS.

If you were like me you will learn a LOT about what to do and not to do. The next playthrough on "normal" will be pretty easy for you and after that any other playthrough will be painfully boring at the same difficulty level because you know what works in the game and what doesn't, your character builds & gear will likely be better, and you'll know "around this corner I need to fight X so I need to prepare like this".

EDIT:  Don't ignore "Tactics" on squadmates [esp. for ranged characters / mages].  If you have problems with bosses ; mages ; etc. you can set up the tactics on your team to eliminate the threat pretty easily.  Forcefields, Crushing Prison, Mana Clash, Shield Bash, etc. saved & used at the proper times makes the game soooo much easier

Modifié par Alamar2078, 02 décembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Ferretinabun]

SFWhite - Good point, and that's the reason 'killing' Flemeth never sits well with me. She has saved your life, and never been anything more than helpful to you. You are taking it entirely on Morrigan's say-so what Flemeth's plans are. Plus you just KNOW she'll be pissed when she comes back from wherever she is...

[KaiserSaucy]

Kajan the reason it seems far fetched to me is that the character is a grey warden - someone who has been handed a death sentence, had to forgo any chance of a family - unless they want to see their children die of the blight before they hit 30, and are more or less expected to die alone fighting impossible odds in the deep roads. And all with one goal in mind - protecting everyone from the threat of the darkspawn. Given all the sacrifices made and the enormity of their responsibility it does seem odd to me that they would be expected to bring something into the world which could cost hundreds, thousands, or millions of lives in the future, versus one life in the here and now.

My playthrough i thought i could get loghain and keep alistair - didnt work out that way, alistair stormed off. So it didnt bother me at all sending in loghain for the final blow. And in line with what i said about weighing many many lives in the future against one life now, sending in alistair wouldnt phase me much either......sometimes he seems ok & other times his character is such a drip, especially with his puppy dog adoration of duncan.

That actually brings up another odd situation, if alistair has left & you just have loghain - a man who has tried to kill you all many times, then why would morrigan think you would care about ordering him to make the killing blow and therefore send him to his death? If Loghains with you, doing the ritual would spare him & the only benefit would be that you could strike the killing blow & get a little bit of extra glory & survive.

Im not sure i agree about the baby not being a threat for a number of years & therefore something that can be worried about after you've had your way with Morrigan. Remember it's no normal baby, the soul & essence of an old god would possess the baby. It would be reasonable to assume it would have terrific power straight away & possess an intelligence far beyond that of a child. And it also goes back to the driving reason behind the wardens and their sacrifice.....to protect the world from the threat of the darkspawn.

If you dont allow the ritual, that's one more old god killed & one less old god that can be corrupted and made into an arch demon. It's therefore one less blight that the world has to suffer through & means there would be just one old god left and therefore only one potential blight.

If you do allow the ritual the old god isnt killed, it transfers to your unborn child & therefore you are back to two potential blights & all the deaths from this blight & all the sacrifice made to remove the threat of this old god/archdemon could potentially be for nothing.

With Ohgrim....i suppose it's because he's with you, he see's that his wife turned her servants into ghouls just so they could trigger that traps and get her to the anvil, he sees how twisted it's search has made her & even say's that she wasnt the woman he knew.

Cheers Alamar, tbh i know i made mistakes in the order i did some missions & i ended up with spells i rarely used. Goofing with the health potions thing probably made things a fair bit tougher for me too. I also regretted choosing arcane warrior, having to stow my sword before spell casting really slowed down the rate i could get spells done. I think i'll go for spirit healer & blood mage in this one. Shapeshifter can be handy but you often dont really get the time to cast it before people are hacking at you and disrupting your spell casting. So your right, there's a fair bit i could do better this time around.

If anyone has played as a human mage and an elf mage......are the diologue options, reactions from people etc very different or not much different? Im wondering whether it's worth playing through as both elf and human mage?

SFwhite, now you mention it, it does seem a bit crazy just taking the word of someone like morrigan that flemeth is out to possess her.

I wonder what the whole deal is there? Maybe Flemeths plan was to send Morrigan off to get knocked up by the grey warden, conceive her god baby, then when morrigan returned...possess her & therefore give birth to the god child herself.

I've not decided whether to get awakenings yet, i'll have to read up on it. I only get dlc if i think it's going to be worthwhile and add to my enjoyment of the game, i prefer stuff that's fairly substantial too eg shivering isles for oblivion or point lookout & broken steel for fallout 3 - got both of those on one disc for a tenner, most worthwhile and best value dlc i've had.

I've just had a thought about the warden dying slowly from the blight - the urn of andraste's ash's cure anything.  Maybe bioware could give your character the option to take some of the ashes, remove the blight, and therefore give you the option to leave the wardens & just be a regular none potential archdemon slaying hero.

Would anyone else have preferred to be able to carry on wandering round after the main quest ending? maybe do some side missions, see how things have changed etc.?

And did anyone else wonder why, when you went back to the tower after the mages circle quest, even if quite some time had passed.  Why the place was still a total mess with blood all over the place and dead body's still lying round the place?  I remember oblivion doing something similar with the city where the first great gate got opened, no matter how much time passed, the ruins were still on fire despite the constant never ending rain, the place was never rebuilt, and the refugees stayed in their tents on the mountainside rather than either rebuilding or moving to another town.

Modifié par KaiserSaucy, 03 décembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[SFWhite]

Ferretinabun wrote...



SFWhite - Good point, and that's the reason 'killing' Flemeth never sits well with me. She has saved your life, and never been anything more than helpful to you. You are taking it entirely on Morrigan's say-so what Flemeth's plans are. Plus you just KNOW she'll be pissed when she comes back from wherever she is...

It's not a matter of being afraid of her, after all, she's just possessed by a demon (according to Morrigan). A really powerful demon maybe, but even then, I'm sure she/it would be no match for someone who's capable of killing a "god"... or else why would she need the Wardens to get rid of the archdemon?



However, demon-possessed or not, she's done us no harm... and we wouldn't even be alive if not for her. Killing her in return seems rather twisted "gratitude", arrived at through some sort of simple-minded faith that Morrigan's telling the truth, rather than manipulating you for her own purposes. To just accept Morrigan's story with no back-story past her say-so and some old fables is really thin. Especially since Flemeth acts more like Wynne, not demon-possessed, but rather spirit-possessed. In other words, not a demonic entity with evil intent, but a non-malicious spirit with unknown intent. One of the clues is that Flemeth is still herself, so something's different about the entity that's possessing her.



To add support to that, if you have Morrigan tell you Flemeth's story, you discover that Flemeth was aided at the first by "good" spirits from the Fade, not demons, and it was they who killed the evil lord and his minions. According to Morrigan, the demon didn't come until much later. And again, the assertion it actually is a demon comes from Morrigan.

KaiserSaucy wrote...



SFwhite, now you mention it, it does seem a bit crazy just taking the word of someone like morrigan that flemeth is out to possess her.



I wonder what the whole deal is there? Maybe Flemeths plan was to send Morrigan off to get knocked up by the grey warden, conceive her god baby, then when morrigan returned...possess her & therefore give birth to the god child herself.

There's nothing within the story that implies that Flemeth has any such motives. Not that it's not a logical conclusion, but it's not even hinted at within any of the dialog exchanges. It's an inventive extrapolation, though, and I like it. I just can't bring myself to use that as a justification for killing her while I'm standing right there looking the woman who saved my life in the eye. LOL

[KaiserSaucy]

Well the discovery of the Robes of possession in Flemeths hut does indicate that Morrigan was telling the truth after all. The description for the robes even said that with Flemeth alive they would have been used to sap Morrigan of her will & made it easier for Flemeth to possess her.



I think they cooked up the plan about the god baby together, but Morrigan was unaware of Flemeth planning to take over her body to extend her life.



I agree that they should have given some more back story to it though, or maybe letting you read Flemeths book so you could see her ritual of possession in black and white & therefore know it wasnt just some invention of Morrigans.

[ModerateOsprey]

^^ That would have made a great codex entry.

[KaiserSaucy]

ModerateOsprey.......it would have been interesting, especially as the first book was more of a diary of some of Flemeth's earlier years as well as containing the possession ritual. It would have given an interesting concrete insight into her character, the only other information you have to go on about Flemeth is the story about why she fled to the wilds, the accepted version & the version you can get from a conversation with Morrigan. When i got the book i went into my inventory expecting to be able to read it & felt a bit let down when i couldnt.



It would have solved the issue SFWhite brought up about being expected to kill Flemeth based on nothing other than Morrigans say so.



Alamar, you were right. Im finding this playthrough much easier on normal than i did the first time. I've tinkered with tactics & added the use of health potions, picked my spells better etc. Im going to try knocking it up a level & seeing how it goes.



This game im doing human mage again, as the game 'really' ends, i left a lot of side missions undone first time round & Alistair ended up a bitter old drunk, plus i missed the romance chances. So im gonna get more done in this one, think i'll romance Morrigan, make alistair king, refuse Morrigans ritual, and send Loghain in for the killing strike.



Time after that, romance Liliana, Kill Loghain, Leave Anora as queen, bang Morrigan senseless on the eve of battle & do her ritual, then take the killing strike myself. If your with Liliana & bed Morrigan on the eve of battle, does Morrigan get all spiteful and tell Liliana you slept with her? seems the sort of thing her character would do.



The Orzammar choice is difficult too. Harrowpoint or whateve his name is, seems more honest and was the old kings choice. The Prince seems messed up & totally ruthless & wasnt wanted by the old king, on the other hand he want's to reform the caste system, open Orzammar up more to the surface world, and take them forward rather than his rival who wants to stick with tradition, uphold the cruel caste system & close orzammar and the dwarves off from the outside world.



Even though the prince is ruthless in the longrun it seemed like there would be less suffering under him than the traditionalist, so i went with the prince.

[Kajan451]

Nothing other than Morrigans say so? Flemeth is the one who gives you her name. She calls herself Flemeth. She is the one people telling scary tales on the fireplace about her stealing children and all that.



There isn't so much as just Morrigans say so. Actually going there and putting an end to Flemeth is like going there to lift an ancient curse on the lands. Morrigans say so only confirms the truth of all the rumors about Flemeth. Daveth and Alistair both are scared about the Witch of the Wilds. Even if there was just a little truth to the rumors Flemeth wasn't a very nice person in the past centuries.



And she also deliberately just saves Alistair and the Warden, the only two Wardens she claims she could reach, but in truth they are also the most unexperianced Wardens. She even points out she is much more powerful than the Warden and Alistair at their rescue.. and there is little doubt, at least in my opinion, once you face her for battle.. that Flemeth could have easily saved Duncan and the other Wardens. Afterall it wasn't just Alistair and Duncan who were Fereldons Wardens. If you play the Dwarven Nobel Origin there are at least 4 more Wardens in Fereldon. When talked to Rhisomething... the 3rd Warden who later shows up and dies when he jumps on the Archdemon... he mentions there have been about a dozen Warden in Fereldon and they all die along with Duncan. Flemeth only saves the two most inexperianced. And since she seems to be able to sense the Future of people, Flemeth remarks on the uncertain future of the Warden when first met Along with Daventh and Jory, it seems she was quite possibly able to sense Darkspawn Taint.. and should know neither of the 3 next to Alistair are yet real Wardens. All it would need in advance would for Flemeth knowing enough of the Wardens to actually know that the youngest Member of the Orden does accompany Recruits. And already Flemeth "rescue" isn't all that selfless anymore.



She speaks in riddles but there is enough to what she say what makes it very clear that she is very powerful and could have quite possibly saved more, but opted to just save the Warden and Alistair. This plays nicely into her plan with the ritual.



When reading up on the Witch of the Wild and speaking about it uppon encountering Flemeth the first time, speaking to Morrigan later about her mother and such... it becomes quite obvious that Flemeth isn't a very nice person, but rather a powerful being with its own Agenda.



Its not just Morrigans say so... but actually a lot of people who are afraid of the Witch of the Wild, which Flemeth tells you... she is. Yes, you only have the word of a friend (you have to get her to like you more than just a little bit to get her to ask you to hunt down flemeth) and a bunch of legends and local scare about how dangerous the Witch of the Wild is to move uppon. Thats more than you have to act uppon when you decide Werewolfs or Elves.





And once you face off Flemeth she actually changes into a High Dragon, kind of proving she could have easily done more than just rescue only 2 wardens, if she had wanted that.



Future evidence on Morrigan not making stuff up, could be found in the Witch Hunt DLC, at its end Morrigan speaks about Flemeth. Making me assume Dragon Age 2 will be about Morrigans Child and Flemeth as one of the bad guys.

[KaiserSaucy]

Kajan - History is written by the victors





That's illustrated by the version you hear from Morrigan, when she tells you Flemeth was married to the bard, rather than having an affair with him. That the lord was someone who took a fancy to flemeth and offered to buy her from her husband, but that he took flemeth and had the bard killed.



So wouldnt it be natural for him to twist the story to show himself in the best light, that of the wronged husband rather than that of a ruthless tyrant with no honour?



And even taking into account that Flemeth is a witch, and has killed many men over the years - she admits to killing templars that came after her, but it's also clear that she has 'tried' to live in seclusion and keep herself to herself, even moving around the wilds to try and avoid attention. That doesnt automatically mean that Morrigan is telling the truth about Flemeth's method for extending her life or that Flemeth really is planning to possess Morrigan.



It could have been an attempt by Morrigan to wrest her mothers secrets from her & therefore increase her own power manyfold.



It turns out she was almost certainly telling you the truth about Flemeth wanting to possess her, but that's only discovered when you find the robes of possession.



Before that all you have to go on for killing Flemeth are Morrigans word & some old legends which may only have a grain of truth in the them & largely be fabricated.

[Janni-in-VA]

Just a few random thoughts, some of which have been touched on above.



If you had refused conscription into the Grey Wardens, in all likelihood your character would have died. It's a compelling reason to get you into the Wardens. The game hinges on your being a Warden and the choices you must make because of that.



The Taint, which creates both Archdemons and Wardens, is carried in the body. If you went along with Morrigan's ritual, the untainted soul of the old god is what takes up residence in the baby. It is NOT a possession; game canon seems to be that after one night there's not another soul in there yet. A possession either ousts or subjugates a person's soul. It is important to note, also, that in order for this baby to have enough trace of the taint to call the old god's soul, a magic ritual is necessary. We'll not debate the mechanics of that; it'll just give us a headache, and it's been done to death in several other threads. There is much we don't know about the nature of dragons and draconic intelligence, nevermind whether or not that corrupted dragon shape is actually an old god or not. We really have no way of knowing what that child will be like in the future. I suspect that Flemeth knows quite well what that child will be like, should you agree to the ritual, and I don't think it will be harmful. What's the point in surviving all those centuries if you're just going to unleash destruction on the world?



And speaking of Flemeth, killing her is not the only point in the game where you have to make a decision based solely on what people say. Every major decision in the game is based on what people have told you. You, as a character, have to weigh what you hear and take action accordingly without direct access to the facts. Lady of the Forest or Zanthrian? Templars or mages? Harrowmont or Bhelen? Dark Ritual or Ultimate Sacrifice? It's all of a piece.



The children of Grey Wardens are not tainted. They are perfectly healthy, normal children. The inestimable Mr. Gaider has confirmed this in another thread on this forum. They are, however, very difficult to get for a Grey Warden and ONLY possible if the other parent is untainted.



Since only a Grey Warden can strike the deathblow on the Archdemon, there's very good reason to conscript Loghain. Your character (not you as a player) doesn't know this conscription will cost her/him Alistair. Personally, I haven't yet been able to do it. He's died in every playthrough I've done, the traitor.



Bioware games aren't sandbox worlds such as we see in, say, Morrowind or Oblivion (Bethesda Softworks), and they aren't the only games to be done when the game ends. Having the game end after the last boss battle is a well-established convention in game design. I don't see that as a weakness. Arl Eamon does tell you to take care of any other business you have before you go to Denerim for the Landsmeet and the events leading up to the Battle of Denerim, so you do at least have a hint that you need to take care of business.



I discovered that, in spite of being a veteran gamer, I had to adjust my playing style for DA:O. There is a distinct learning curve, and you have to think more tactically. You can't just run in guns blazing, so to speak, and expect to come out of every battle alive. I learned that the hard way. I ate a lot of grass my first few playthroughs, and sand, and rock, and.... I had to learn which enemies to take out first, what spells worked best against which creatures, how to keep from getting surrounded, how to use choke points to my advantage, etc. May I just say that I think F5 and F9 are the best buttons ever? Having said all that, DA:O is the first game I've played on Hard. Yay me! \\o/



And, I don't mind the mage hoods nearly as much as I mind those coneheaded turban things. I don't like seeing helmets anyway; I put too much time into creating my characters. There are a couple of lovely mods at dragonage.nexus.com that hide the headgear in DA:O and Awakening, if anyone is interested. Search for "hack" since it's in the title of the mods.

[tonnactus]

KaiserSaucy wrote...


That actually brings up another odd situation, if alistair has left & you just have loghain - a man who has tried to kill you all many times, then why would morrigan think you would care about ordering him to make the killing blow and therefore send him to his death?

That is actually all anwered in the dialog with her. She ask you how you could be sure that loghain would survive the fight that he could make this blow and you are not forced to do that.
Pay a little more attention to the game dialog.

[Rikudou Sennin]

to me this is just a barrels of laughs.... no offense on Morrigan's behalf but i do agree.

[SFWhite]

Wow, Kajan451, Great logic! I really appreciate your reasoning, it eases my mind. LOL As far as folk tales go, they're often nothing but bugaboo and bunkum, but the logic of what Flemeth was actually capable of should've been more obvious to me. She could've turned the battle for the King and other Wardens if she'd wanted to, couldn't she? I see now that choosing to let all of them die while saving only a couple of neophytes was far from the selfless act of a "good" entity.

I did notice that she seemed able to read the future, since she commented that Ser Jory was irrelavent, so of course it's logical that she probably knew the outcome of the Darkspawn battle.

KaiserSaucy, I actually didn't notice the name of the robes I found in the chest with Flemeth's book, though I did note that they could only be worn by Morrigan.

Your thinking in your later post mirrored mine when I came here looking for answers. To me, it seemed Flemeth did what she had to just to survive, and that she wasn't on any quest to rule the world. She just wanted the world to leave her alone.

So, now I can choose to think Flemeth planned to take over Morrigan's body and raise the god-child... for whatever reason the demon that possessd her might have had... or I can choose to view her as the misanthrope who's lived way too long to think much of men past what she can get from them if she absolutely needs something only to be had from them, as I first saw her.

But, thinking of her as evil is more fun.  LOL

I came to this forum to find an answer to the question of killing Flemeth, if it could be logically justified, and you guys have certainly given me that. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

So, I'm off to kill someone I've decided needs killing. LOL

Modifié par SFWhite, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Esbatty]

This is a great thread, I'll contribute later, but damn if there isn't some solid back and forth. Kudos. I shall return!

[Addai]

KaiserSaucy wrote...
 
My problem with the Morrigan story is this.....She and Flemeth seem to have come up with the plan of performing the ritual on the eve of battle with the archdemon so her foetus would be possessed by the soul of the old god/archdemon, very early in the game & that is the premise for Flemeth saving you & alistair & for insisting Morrigan goes with you.

But how incredibly unlikely would it be that a grey warden of all people, would agree to a plan which would see their child possessed by an old god.....something which could be corrupted by the darkspawn and made into an arch demon, or which could cause untold havoc itself.  Especially considering it would be raised by Morrigan with her cold "survival of the fittest" approach to everything and contempt for things like love and compassion?

So her story starts off on a very unlikely and weak premise.  There is a circumstance which can arise which takes Morrigans story beyond the territory of the very unlikely & into the land of ridiculous.

That happens if you romance Morrigan through the game & your character shows her real affection.  Now if you refuse to go through with her ritual, she then basically asks you to have a word with one of the other wardens and persuade them to screw her so she can conceive her little monster.  If your character has had a relationship with Morrigan & has already refused to countenance her idea......doesnt it seem silly for her to then ask again, but this time asking the man she's in a relationship with to ask either his friend, or the man he reviles most in the world, the man who has tried to murder him and his companions again and again to screw her?

I think the whole Morrigan story is badly flawed.

 .

I don't think the Morrigan story is that bad.  1st of all there is the trope of the powerhungry wizard.   I think the old god bby fits into that except rather then being out to steal an artifcact of power like a villain in dungeons and dragons might try to do, the object is to try to manufacture a super majic one using the old god baby as the power source and conduit.

Now the bit about her wanting to ask Alistair after you refuse her is a bit weird, but I think its a bit of the saying "It never hurts to ask" or in sales, "Always ask for the sale".   While the probability of you saying yes is low, there is still a small chance and that beats no chance.

[Addai]

  
My problem with the Morrigan story is this.....She and Flemeth seem to have come up with the plan of performing the ritual on the eve of battle with the archdemon so her foetus would be possessed by the soul of the old god/archdemon, very early in the game & that is the premise for Flemeth saving you & alistair & for insisting Morrigan goes with you.

But how incredibly unlikely would it be that a grey warden of all people, would agree to a plan which would see their child possessed by an old god.....something which could be corrupted by the darkspawn and made into an arch demon, or which could cause untold havoc itself.  Especially considering it would be raised by Morrigan with her cold "survival of the fittest" approach to everything and contempt for things like love and compassion?

So her story starts off on a very unlikely and weak premise.  There is a circumstance which can arise which takes Morrigans story beyond the territory of the very unlikely & into the land of ridiculous.

That happens if you romance Morrigan through the game & your character shows her real affection.  Now if you refuse to go through with her ritual, she then basically asks you to have a word with one of the other wardens and persuade them to screw her so she can conceive her little monster.  If your character has had a relationship with Morrigan & has already refused to countenance her idea......doesnt it seem silly for her to then ask again, but this time asking the man she's in a relationship with to ask either his friend, or the man he reviles most in the world, the man who has tried to murder him and his companions again and again to screw her?

I think the whole Morrigan story is badly flawed.

 

(husband)

I don't think the Morrigan story is that bad.  1st of all there is the trope of the powerhungry wizard.   I think the old god bby fits into that except rather than trying to steal or find an "artifcact of power" like a villain in Dungeons and Dragons might try to do, the goal is to try to manufacture a super majic one using the old god / god baby as the power source and conduit and vessle.

Now the bit about her wanting to ask Alistair after you refuse her is a bit weird, but I think its a bit of the saying "It never hurts to ask" or in sales, "Always ask for the sale".   While the probability of you saying yes is low, there is still a small chance and that beats no chance.[/quote]

Modifié par Addai67, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Maria13]

SFWhite wrote...

Wow, Kajan451, Great logic! I really appreciate your reasoning, it eases my mind. LOL As far as folk tales go, they're often nothing but bugaboo and bunkum, but the logic of what Flemeth was actually capable of should've been more obvious to me. She could've turned the battle for the King and other Wardens if she'd wanted to, couldn't she? I see now that choosing to let all of them die while saving only a couple of neophytes was far from the selfless act of a "good" entity.

I did notice that she seemed able to read the future, since she commented that Ser Jory was irrelavent, so of course it's logical that she probably knew the outcome of the Darkspawn battle.

KaiserSaucy, I actually didn't notice the name of the robes I found in the chest with Flemeth's book, though I did note that they could only be worn by Morrigan.

Your thinking in your later post mirrored mine when I came here looking for answers. To me, it seemed Flemeth did what she had to just to survive, and that she wasn't on any quest to rule the world. She just wanted the world to leave her alone.

So, now I can choose to think Flemeth planned to take over Morrigan's body and raise the god-child... for whatever reason the demon that possessd her might have had... or I can choose to view her as the misanthrope who's lived way too long to think much of men past what she can get from them if she absolutely needs something only to be had from them, as I first saw her.

But, thinking of her as evil is more fun.  LOL

I came to this forum to find an answer to the question of killing Flemeth, if it could be logically justified, and you guys have certainly given me that. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

So, I'm off to kill someone I've decided needs killing. LOL

I think you can see the difference between Morrigan's nearsightedness and Flemeth's far-sightedness shortly after you wake up in the hut.  Morrigan says something along the lines of "Why she saved you two and not the King, I don't know" but in saving the warden and Alistair she has saved the future king or at least kingmakers so it is not only that they are the most malleable of the wardens but they have the potential to become the most powerful individuals in the kingdom...

[Master Shiori]

Maria13 wrote...

SFWhite wrote...

Wow, Kajan451, Great logic! I really appreciate your reasoning, it eases my mind. LOL As far as folk tales go, they're often nothing but bugaboo and bunkum, but the logic of what Flemeth was actually capable of should've been more obvious to me. She could've turned the battle for the King and other Wardens if she'd wanted to, couldn't she? I see now that choosing to let all of them die while saving only a couple of neophytes was far from the selfless act of a "good" entity.

I did notice that she seemed able to read the future, since she commented that Ser Jory was irrelavent, so of course it's logical that she probably knew the outcome of the Darkspawn battle.

KaiserSaucy, I actually didn't notice the name of the robes I found in the chest with Flemeth's book, though I did note that they could only be worn by Morrigan.

Your thinking in your later post mirrored mine when I came here looking for answers. To me, it seemed Flemeth did what she had to just to survive, and that she wasn't on any quest to rule the world. She just wanted the world to leave her alone.

So, now I can choose to think Flemeth planned to take over Morrigan's body and raise the god-child... for whatever reason the demon that possessd her might have had... or I can choose to view her as the misanthrope who's lived way too long to think much of men past what she can get from them if she absolutely needs something only to be had from them, as I first saw her.

But, thinking of her as evil is more fun.  LOL

I came to this forum to find an answer to the question of killing Flemeth, if it could be logically justified, and you guys have certainly given me that. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

So, I'm off to kill someone I've decided needs killing. LOL

I think you can see the difference between Morrigan's nearsightedness and Flemeth's far-sightedness shortly after you wake up in the hut.  Morrigan says something along the lines of "Why she saved you two and not the King, I don't know" but in saving the warden and Alistair she has saved the future king or at least kingmakers so it is not only that they are the most malleable of the wardens but they have the potential to become the most powerful individuals in the kingdom...

But how was Morrigan supposed to know that? It's not like she has a crystal ball to scry the future with.

Flemeth may be able to see the future (or so it's said) but she hardly shares that knowledge with others, unless it suits her plans.

[Maria13]

I am not saying that Morrigan is supposed to know that, what I meant to say was that Morrigan is limited and Flemeth is not, so if you have to side with one of the two, side with Flemeth.

[Kajan451]

KaiserSaucy wrote...

Kajan - History is written by the victors

At the point where you are going to make the decision of Killing Flemeth or not (i mean you can always opt out once you spoke with Flemeth)... there is no victor to "change" History of Flemeth.

People are afraid Flemeth THE witch of the wild. Morrigan is your friend, at the point where she asks you to go and help her... and i do not see much reason not to believe a friends words. I mean, quite frankly... if you do not trust Morrigan, why did you befriend her?

KaiserSaucy wrote...

That's illustrated by the version you hear from Morrigan, when she tells you Flemeth was married to the bard, rather than having an affair with him. That the lord was someone who took a fancy to flemeth and offered to buy her from her husband, but that he took flemeth and had the bard killed.

So and what exactly does that detail change? It doesn't change anything, just minor, unimportant details. The bard dies in both stories. If the Bard was Married to Flemeth or not, is unimportant. He still gets killed by the Lord.

And all the reasoning won't change the fact that people are scared of Flemeth. There is no reason to be scared of a friendly herbselling woman who just wants to remain somewhere in the wilds and not be bothered.  Point is... Flemeth has an unnaturally long lifespan. Something that can only mean two things:

1) She isn't human, but some sort of other being
2) She is a bloodmage. Even the Elf with the Werewolfs has used Bloodmagic to create the Werewolves. In Awakening the baroness does extend her life with Bloodmagic...  Bloodmagic is the only thing in that whole universe to extend someones life.


Flemeth is ancient. She has lived for a long, long time... and no matter how much you try to reason it or claim you didn't have the information before hand.. your Character knows she is unnatural. You hear the stories about Flemeth stealing children, haunting the area. You have two characters, who are not Morrigan, who are scared of Flemeths name... Alistair even feels uncomfortable around her (after the rescue for example)... Morrigan already remarks on Flemeth being a harsh teacher once the Warden wakes up and talks to her (before going out to Flemeth you can ask Morrigan a lot of stuff).. When speaking to Flemeth she admits to be the Witch of the Wild, she Admits to killing people... she admits to be very old and powerful...

I don't really see how all that is not going to lend credability to what Morrigan says when she says: "Its true, she possesses people to extend her life".... you KNOW Flemeth is very, very old. She tells you.

KaiserSaucy wrote...

And even taking into account that Flemeth is a witch, and has killed many men over the years - she admits to killing templars that came after her, but it's also clear that she has 'tried' to live in seclusion and keep herself to herself, even moving around the wilds to try and avoid attention. That doesnt automatically mean that Morrigan is telling the truth about Flemeth's method for extending her life or that Flemeth really is planning to possess Morrigan.

It doesn't matter if Morrigan is telling the truth. Flemeth has plagued the lands for a century or more at least, struck fear in people with just the mention of her name. Thats what you know even without Morrigan telling you a word.

And you could for example read up on her codex entry.... which isn't told by Morrigan, but is a "things your charakter knows" Type of deal... history of Fereldan or whatever... if you Read Flemeth Codex entry you will read about how Flemeth turned into an Abdomination and killed the Lord by giving birth to a horrible monster... and how she movies to the Wilds and began to steal men from the barbarians to create an army of monsters attacking some other tribe and being defeated by conoar... or something like that. That she was thought to be dead, but rumors still going about about Flemeth who keeps stealing men in the Wilds.

Sorry... thats not really about "The victor" writes history... or are you actually suggesting that Flemeth might be a nice person but the world is just unjust and every available source about her is kind of pointing out how evil she is.. but in reality she is a nice person and the rest of the world just being mean and wrong?


Is it that hard to simply assume that if a lot of people warn you about a person they might be right, no matter the nice words this person uses to convince you she is really a nice person?

Flemeth placates you whenever she has the chance, she speaks in riddles, eludes your questions where ever they could be unpleasant... like when she tell you that she wasn't a nice girl and has had her troubles with the world but wouldn't tell you what she did, because that would be between the world and her?

There is just so much evidence on Flemeth not being a nice, selfless person... i really don't get why Morrigans Word, who kind of confirms everything you have heard about Flemeth so far, wouldn't be good enough anymore.... all of the sudden. Its not like Morrigan has ever done anything to earn an ounce of mistrust. She has always been straight, outspoken and honest to the point of telling you stuff you do not want to hear.

Morrigan never lied to Warden, she never cheated on him.. didn't set a trap for him... she is one of the more loyal companions... and a real sucker for compliments. Like a beaten puppy. You say something nice to her and she almost cries. You suggest you are friends and she almost cries... 

Sorry... but the best argument for why Flemeth is a bad person is Morrigan herself. Morrigan behaves from the very first moment you meet her like a beaten puppy. Like a Child that grows up with someone who has been doing nothing but being mean, harm and spiteful, beating her whenever they got the chance. And the one to rise Morrigan, the one who made Morrigan in who she is... having no friends, knowing no love and being in denial that anyone could actually like her.... THAT is all Flemeths doing.

Morrigan didn't choose the life she was living, she grew up as a child being "found" by Flemeth. Having only Flemeth and all that....

Morrigan tries to make a joke about the stew on the fire... and Flemeth is like "yeah if i survive" and what is Morrigans reaction? She almost starts to cry over loosing the only person to care for her. And when the Warden gets to know her there are several chances you can tell her she is your friend... and she is all heartbroken and can't believe anyone actually liking her.

Thats all Flemeths work... and just by the way Morrigan behaves.. Flemeth is a real piece of work... to have risen a child like Morrigan.