41 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Kajan451 wrote...

Sorry... but the best argument for why Flemeth is a bad person is Morrigan herself. Morrigan behaves from the very first moment you meet her like a beaten puppy. Like a Child that grows up with someone who has been doing nothing but being mean, harm and spiteful, beating her whenever they got the chance. And the one to rise Morrigan, the one who made Morrigan in who she is... having no friends, knowing no love and being in denial that anyone could actually like her.... THAT is all Flemeths doing.

Morrigans nightmare in the fade only confirms that.

[Brockololly]

SFWhite wrote...

It's not a matter of being afraid of her, after all, she's just possessed by a demon (according to Morrigan). A really powerful demon maybe, but even then, I'm sure she/it would be no match for someone who's capable of killing a "god"... or else why would she need the Wardens to get rid of the archdemon?

Eh, Flemeth is no simple abomination- demon posessed or no. In WItch Hunt Morrigan tells you as much that Flemeth is no blood mage, no abomination and not even human; that Flemeth's goals go far beyond immortality. And even if you "kill" Flemeth in Origins, you're not really killing her, just postponing her return.

SFWhite wrote...

There's nothing within the story that implies that Flemeth has any such motives. Not that it's not a logical conclusion, but it's not even hinted at within any of the dialog exchanges. It's an inventive extrapolation, though, and I like it. I just can't bring myself to use that as a justification for killing her while I'm standing right there looking the woman who saved my life in the eye. LOL

For most of my characters it comes down to being able to converse openly with Morrigan and once friendly or romancing her, see that she's a genuine person underneath her ****iness. WIth Flemeth however, you NEVER get a clear cut answer from her. So while she saved you, she didn't do it out of the warmth of her good natured spirit, she saved the Warden and Alistair to use you and pull your strings like the puppet master Flemeth is. For all you know, Flemeth messed around with you while you were out after Ostagar.

There are the stories of how she once raised an army of mages- and if the one trailer of DA2 is anything to go by, it would seem she may be up to something of that sort again.

It comes down to whether you can trust Flemeth or Morrigan more really. For any flaws Morrigan may have, you at least now who you're dealing with on a personal level- her plans may be a mystery, but if your Warden becomes friends or romances her, her feelings she portrays to the Warden are genuine. Flemeth is a shapeshifter that doesn't even show you her true form, (if she has one) let alone act honestly with the Warden.

Addai67 wrote...
Now the bit about her wanting to ask Alistair
after you refuse her is a bit weird, but I think its a bit of the
saying "It never hurts to ask" or in sales, "Always ask for the sale".  
While the probability of you saying yes is low, there is still a small
chance and that beats no chance.

Yeah, even if you romanced Morrigan and turn her down, she still asks about another Warden because the Dark Ritual is just that important to her. You can call her out on that in that case, and she'll say something to the effect that even if there were a thousand Wardens there she'd want to do it with the romancing Warden. Its not just that she wants the Old God baby either- if you're friendly or romancing her, she wants to do it so that the Warden doesn't have to die. Because for all you know, you'll be the only Warden to make it to the Archdemon in which case you'd have to take the final blow.

And the manner in which Morrigan asks the whole DR thing isn't necessarily her first plan. As Gaider mentioned a while back, the Archdemon attacking Denerim and the subsequent mustering of the army at Redcliffe so quickly took her by surprise. Morrigan thought they would be waiting for the other Orlesian Wardens to join them before they went to face the Archdemon. In which case, she'd conceivably have plenty of other Wardens to do the DR with, should the Warden turn her down. But that didn't happen, so Morrigan was simply trying to make the best of a bad situation from her POV.

[KaiserSaucy]

Kajan - what im saying is that just because there are story's about Flemeth saying she runs through the woods eating children or takes perverse delight in murdering people and causing untold misery for the sake of it, doesnt mean they are the facts.



eg. lets take King Arthur, the modern tale comes from a romantic victorian writer stumbling across some details about the historical character & deciding to weave a story around those few details. Suddenly Arthur is in the middle ages, he and his knights wear shining suits of armor and he became King by pulling a magic sword from a stone, a sword which was bestowed by a supernatural entity which lived in a lake.



The limited facts we have are that Arthur lived in the 9th century AD, that he was a warlord & that was where his power and respect came from, not a magic sword in a stone. He and his men probably dressed in chainmail shirts & furs, and he fought back against the saxon threat, there was no round table, there was no camalot, no shining suits of armor, or lady of the lake, or Merlin the wizard raining down spells on his enemy's.



People naturally embellish story's & over time story's change, they move locations, names change, etc. So just because story's are told, it doesnt mean that they are true, it doesnt even mean they are loosely based on facts, they could be total fabrication.



Im not saying Flemeth is a good person. Im just saying that legends are not the most factually accurate things in the world. Also you say thing's like who Flemeth was married to & how the bard die are just details that change nothing.......well someone dying from an illness or being murdered in cold blood is a fairly major detail & it would change thing's. Someone being married and running away with another man is a very different situation to someone offering to buy that woman off her husband & then when they had the woman, murdering her husband to avoid paying him & keeping the woman locked up in a tower, also changes things. If it would reasonably effect the character & their reactions or motivation then it is important to the story & important to the makeup of their character.



Shanni - i didnt mean to imply the baby would be born as an archdemon, but there is something in the game which suggests the darkspawn may be drawn to the old gods & if they are, then they could go after the baby & corrupt it.



About Grey wardens having children......there is either dialogue or a jornal entry in the game which say's grey wardens cant have family's. I just took it literally and assumed it was the ritual Morrigan conducts that made it possible this time.



With there being other choices in the game that are done with little to go on, that's true there are a few, but this is one of the more glaring ones. With some others it may seem there is nothing to go on but then you might find a codex entry that sheds some more light on it, or with one of your examples, the lady of the forest, a different approach to the problem can give you more to base your decision on. With that quest she told me about the curst etc, and that it was the dalish mage who put the curse on them. I went and spoke to him & after a bit of questioning and persuasion he admits he was responsible & admits that the story about his children was true & that it was his motivation for the curse. The Flemeth thing wasnt really a big issue for me, it did just seem odd that you couldnt maybe check the book & see the details of it to give your decision a bit more weight.



And with whether or not the old god is really possessing the baby.....it depends on your take, mine was that it was inhabiting a life & eventually a body which is not it's own, so to me it's possession. It doesnt matter what we call it, it's taking up residence in what it the wardens child, it could have the wisdom and power of an old god, it will be raised by a pretty bitter & cold woman with a right wing viewpoint and a skewed view of the world, that just seems like a recipe for trouble to me.



With the ending issue, it may be the most usual thing to do, but that doesnt mean it's the best or the most satisfying.



Come on, what's better....finishing the main story and having the game continue not just so you can finish off and side quests etc. but also so you can go and see what happened to Lothering and how people are rebuilding, or to go back to the circle, Orzammar, Redcliffe, Denerim, and SEE the effects of the blight & of the wardens actions, as well as being able to catch up with your companions and see how things are going for them?



OR



the game ends & a few boxes of text pop up giving you a short epilogue of certain choices and how they worked out?



which of those two is more involving and rewarding?





you make some good points but you wont shift me on my gripe with the ending

[Kajan451]

KaiserSaucy wrote...

Kajan - what im saying is that just because there are story's about Flemeth saying she runs through the woods eating children or takes perverse delight in murdering people and causing untold misery for the sake of it, doesnt mean they are the facts.

You are the one who keeps arguing about how you have no information about "Flemeth" being a person who does deserve to die, except for Morrigan. I keep pointing out to you several sources where people are actually being scared of Flemeth, being damaged by her... along with History Entries into your History book.

While King Arthur is a nice example.. let me take another one...

Adolf Hitler. You know, he was supposedly a great guy at parties, telling many jokes. From what i know, as german, he was supposed to be a great teller of jew jokes at his time. Very charismatic person. Even had a woman fall in love with him, despite his... lets call it inability.

So you actually kind of make the case of us being supposed to doubt the history entries, and assuming that Hitler was a nice guy, just because we can't know for sure? Victor writing history and all. And mind you, as German person i kind of know where the real history does differ from the Point of View i am presented with so very often.. but no matter what.. it doesn't turn Hitler into a nice person, no matter the fact that he kind of built all highways and advanced technology quite a bit, technology which has saved the life of thousands of people.

You can of course doubt Hitler was a bad person. Thats up to you... but i consider it kind of paranoid to simply assume your history books are inaccurate to the point at which they would turn Hitler into anything else than one of the biggest bastards in world history.

You said ... all you have is Morrigans Say so... i say you have History Entries, other Peoples reactions and Flemeth own actions as well to base your decision uppon. If you go kill Flemeth or not... thats entirely up to you, but when it comes to Flemeth.. you actually have a lot more information than you do with the whole Connor or Werewolf thing.

And personally i do like that Flemeth isn't your 60ths Badguy with a mustach and a black hat.... though now that i think about it... she does laugh quite overlordish...

KaiserSaucy wrote...

eg. lets take King Arthur, the modern tale comes from a romantic victorian writer stumbling across some details about the historical character & deciding to weave a story around those few details. Suddenly Arthur is in the middle ages, he and his knights wear shining suits of armor and he became King by pulling a magic sword from a stone, a sword which was bestowed by a supernatural entity which lived in a lake.

While its not that important... King Arthur is the Mix of gaelic Folklore and a Warband leader. Both by the name Fionn.... the Folklore hero being Fionn MacCumhail better known as Finn MacCool and a pict warband leader called Finn who raided the roman part behind the hadrians wall. At least thats afaik the latetest buzz i heard about... but its pretty much like Jesus... people keep searching to lay proof to legend.

KaiserSaucy wrote...

The Flemeth thing wasnt really a big issue for me, it did just seem odd that you couldnt maybe check the book & see the details of it to give your decision a bit more weight.

You can talk to Flemeth before you face off against her and ask her stuff. I don't remember what you can ask her in detail... but its not like you zone in and have to kill her. You can even opt to let Flemeth life, she even suggest it and says Flemeth will "watch" for some time... to see how Morrigan develops and such. She will give you the book on her own to take it to Morrigan and you can then lie to Morrigan (or not)-

KaiserSaucy wrote...

will be raised by a pretty bitter & cold woman

At this point i kind of think you never ever really bothered to get to know Morrigan as charakter.

KaiserSaucy wrote...

Come on, what's better....finishing the main story and having the game continue [...]

OR

the game ends & a few boxes of text pop up

Boxes. For me its the boxes. Reason:

1) I'd hate Devs wasting coding and designing time on Updated areas which have no relevanz and could be very well be done with a few lines of text
2) The timeframe in which you could move, if the game would continue.. would be like a week after the battle anyway... there is nothing to see in terms of changes.

KaiserSaucy wrote...

which of those two is more involving and rewarding?

Well to me the boxes are more rewardning. Knowing Harramond will fail after a couple years, falling ill to what is suspected poison... is nothing that could be told by "revisiting" areas.

Or for example in Awakening, if you bothered to find all the silverite ore... having the box tell you how the new Silver Armor will turn the Soldiers of the Keep into the Silver Order which will be one of the best and welltrained Armies of Fereldon in the centuries to come.

Thats nothing that could be told by revisiting the area. I mean how do you plan to show Alistair being a bad King, if you didn't harden him, right after the battle by revisiting Denerim? They would have to code Courtscenes... showing Alistair sneak out or something.

No, i take a box over the rest.

The game, for me, would have been overall more rewarding if my decisions actually would have effected anything. Each and every time, its always the same. Its my Companions who defend the Gate... its my party who does kill the Archdemon... It so is unimportant if i have mages or templars as call in troups, which i kind of almost never needed, unless i played on Nightmare. And a few boxes at the end.

In this point Dragon Age is just as disappointing as MassEffect... especially since they went about Dragon Age with the same "you have to make meaningful decisions" type of thing.

Thats the only thing which bothered me.. especially about Awakening... having a score of 100 with Alistair and he acts to my Warden as if i am a stranger. Or Ohgrim who would be indifferent with my warden again, despite being superbuddies in Origins. Or meeting that Elf Chick and she gives a damn, doesn't even remark on my damn Dalish Elf.. getting the King to give the Dalish land to settle on... it so didn't bother anyone what decisions i made. At no point. All it changed was a few lines of dialog and the box at the end. That was unrewarding to me.

Going back, walking through the same "boring" areas i have been going through after i "fixed" their lives, hearing the same "lines".... doesn't make the game better. Its finite anyway... and i am kind of completist before going to the Landsmeet anyway... so whats the point... not like you are in a hurry or anything. In my last play through i kind of traveled countless times back and forth... it seems totally unimportant. Nothing gets overrun and i never got a forced Ending like "You lazy bum, the Darkspawn won because you had to go rescue that grannys cat from that tree" No... i could rescue every single cat from every damn tree in the whole land and would still be in time for the Landsmeet and to face the Archdemon.

I really enjoyed the Dragonage story... it just bothers me that your decision mean so little in the game. But seeing how your decisions effect the world, by getting some small "boxes"... well that more worthwhile exploring all the options in the game as does running through the same areas as during the game, getting a few generic lines from the NPCs...

or wasting Development Ressources on coding quality "epiloge" material, which could have rather put into the game, coding a big Quest into the game, rather than reworking the existing ones to show some effects which happend like 1 week after your battle.

[SFWhite]

Brockololly wrote...

SFWhite wrote...

It's not a matter of being afraid of her, after all, she's just possessed by a demon (according to Morrigan). A really powerful demon maybe, but even then, I'm sure she/it would be no match for someone who's capable of killing a "god"... or else why would she need the Wardens to get rid of the archdemon?

Eh, Flemeth is no simple abomination- demon posessed or no. In WItch Hunt Morrigan tells you as much that Flemeth is no blood mage, no abomination and not even human; that Flemeth's goals go far beyond immortality. And even if you "kill" Flemeth in Origins, you're not really killing her, just postponing her return.

SFWhite wrote...

There's nothing within the story that implies that Flemeth has any such motives. Not that it's not a logical conclusion, but it's not even hinted at within any of the dialog exchanges. It's an inventive extrapolation, though, and I like it. I just can't bring myself to use that as a justification for killing her while I'm standing right there looking the woman who saved my life in the eye. LOL

For most of my characters it comes down to being able to converse openly with Morrigan and once friendly or romancing her, see that she's a genuine person underneath her ****iness. WIth Flemeth however, you NEVER get a clear cut answer from her. So while she saved you, she didn't do it out of the warmth of her good natured spirit, she saved the Warden and Alistair to use you and pull your strings like the puppet master Flemeth is. For all you know, Flemeth messed around with you while you were out after Ostagar.

There are the stories of how she once raised an army of mages- and if the one trailer of DA2 is anything to go by, it would seem she may be up to something of that sort again.

It comes down to whether you can trust Flemeth or Morrigan more really. For any flaws Morrigan may have, you at least now who you're dealing with on a personal level- her plans may be a mystery, but if your Warden becomes friends or romances her, her feelings she portrays to the Warden are genuine. Flemeth is a shapeshifter that doesn't even show you her true form, (if she has one) let alone act honestly with the Warden.

It's obvious you've researched a lot more than I have. I was going from the viewpoint of no foreknowledge, just as anyone playing the game for the first time might come on the situation. I haven't yet done Witch Hunt, so any info gained from it is unknown to me at present... and of course would be unknown to anyone who's only at the beginning, playing Origins. Further, since Morrigan and her story are absent from Awakening, no light's shed there either. I've actually played all the way through both Origins and Awakenings, though I haven't done all the extra mini-stories yet (if they aren't included as Premium Content in the main games).

Still, folk tales can be full of unfounded fears and full-blown fabrications, so I put very little trust in them... at least in real life... unless there are concrete, provable facts in evidence to back up their assertions. (And nothing past Morrigan's assertions and some folk tales are presented within the main storyline up to the time you have to make your choice to kill Flemeth or not.)

As an example concerning folk-tales: There was a huge old Victorian house on our block when I was a kid. It was a dreary weathered dark gray, not having been painted in years. Around it were ancient old trees, and shrubs that were so old they had become trees themselves, many of the plants half-dead. No grass grew in the yard because of the dense leafy ovegrowth. Around the property ran a ramshackle fence which was at one time apparently grand. The entire property gave the appearance of being desolate and foreboding. We kids loved to be scared of the place and told all sorts of spooky stories about it to frighten each other.

The truth was that a sweet old lady lived in that big house all alone with only a nurse and housekeeper. She was physically unable to get around much, so she spent all her time inside the house. She also couldn't afford someone to keep up her yard and house, so it had fallen into disrepair after her husband died.

The fear was in our minds, we had no actual reasons to be afraid. The unknown wrapped in appearances is what we were afraid of. There was no evil there other than the underserved evil we imagined to be there. But almost any kid in our small town could tell you some grizzly tale about that house... none of them true.

The point is, in a fantasy game, while I do expect to suspend reality, I don't expect to suspend logic. For the story to hang true for me, it must have a logical flow of facts presented to me in some way that makes them definite game-story truths... either through a Codex entry (for this game) or experienced directly by my character during game-play. When the flow of logic is broken, my enjoyment of the game lessens.

By the way, the Codex entry for Flemeth is no help, since it only repeats the "official" stories told by the Chasind, not even the one Morrigan tells you. In other words, the thin back-story for Flemeth is almost useless, as far as making her into some truly evil entity. Yes, she killed people, but we're the "Good Guys" and we kill lots and lots of people. What did those guards in the Mage Tower Basement (at the first of the game) do to deserve being killed? They were doing their job and we were the intruders, so who were the actual "Bad Guys" in that scenario?

Modifié par SFWhite, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Kajan451]

SFWhite wrote...

Yes, she killed people, but we're the "Good Guys" and we kill lots and lots of people. What did those guards in the Mage Tower Basement (at the first of the game) do to deserve being killed? They were doing their job and we were the intruders, so who were the actual "Bad Guys" in that scenario?

Guards? Don't recall any situation like that...

Anyway... you mean the Codex Entry about Flemeth being an Abomination that has created an Army of Abominations to attack Ameranthine doesn't make Flemeth into a bad person?

[SFWhite]

Kajan451 wrote...

SFWhite wrote...

Yes, she killed people, but we're the "Good Guys" and we kill lots and lots of people. What did those guards in the Mage Tower Basement (at the first of the game) do to deserve being killed? They were doing their job and we were the intruders, so who were the actual "Bad Guys" in that scenario?

Guards? Don't recall any situation like that...

Anyway... you mean the Codex Entry about Flemeth being an Abomination that has created an Army of Abominations to attack Ameranthine doesn't make Flemeth into a bad person?

At the very first of the game as a mage character, when you help Jowan... or, actually, even if you tell Irving and work against Jowan... you are required to go into the tower's basement and help Jowan destroy his phylactery. There are guards all over the basement and, right from the first, you have to kill the guards to continue. The only way out of it would be to tell Jowan you won't help him, I guess, since you do have that option, but I never chose that option. (hmmm... Why haven't I? Maybe I'll make another character and see what happens if I tell Jowan I won't help him.)

Did you not help Jowan? Or have you not played a mage?

I just read the Codex entry for Flemeth again last night, and all it does is repeat the commonly told folk tales. If I choose to believe the Codex, then I'll have to accept that Morrigan is lying. It can't be both ways. Even in a fantasy, there can only be one such truth, so... which is it?

Edit--
I spoke to my son, he's played through the game quite a few times as all the different classes and races... AND also played as both a good character and an evil character, all males. He agrees with you that Flemeth is evil and needs to be killed.

He told me similar stuff to what you were saying about Flemeth, and guessed I was probably unaware of it because my only complete play-through was with a female good-aligned character. Apparently you get a lot more info out of Morrigan if you romance her. In addition, there seems to be more of the story you can only discover if you play an evil character.

From what he'd gotten out of it, Flemeth isn't actually possessed by a demon, in fact she's not possessed at all, she's actually one of the Old Ones, the seven ancient gods spoken about that the Darkspawn are obsessed with finding and waking up. However, unlike the other Old Ones who've been awakened by the Darkspawn, she hasn't been corrupted by the Darkspawn taint... (plus, I guess, she never chose to "sleep", I forgot to ask him about that).

If that's the case, contrary to what Morrigan said when she asked you to kill Flemeth, wouldn't killing her actually really kill her? If not, and Morrigan's right about Flemeth eventually coming back, does killing any archdemon actually kill it (if Flemeth is one of their kin and she can return)?

Modifié par SFWhite, 09 décembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Sand_Dragon91]

After reading all this I feel pretty bad.



Since I play a female, I can't help Morrigan have a baby. But I have no issues pleading with Alistair to make babies with her. Pretty messed up, considering he's my lover and all that. LOL.

[SFWhite]

Sand_Dragon91 wrote...

After reading all this I feel pretty bad.

Since I play a female, I can't help Morrigan have a baby. But I have no issues pleading with Alistair to make babies with her. Pretty messed up, considering he's my lover and all that. LOL.

There's NO WAY to play a female character and not become Alistair's love-interest. I know, because I tried. It gets to the point where he insists, and it's an accept him or else sort of thing. Refusing him then gets you very big negatives with him.

Honestly, I seriously thought about asking Alistair to sleep with Morrigan, too. Then I considered the fact that Morrigan and Alistair hate each other, so asking him would probably just get me big negatives with him at the same time he's refusing to have anything to do with her and her twisted request.

Not the most pure of ulterior motives on my part, but such truths seldom are that pure.  LOL  (Plus, stepping out of the role of my character and thinking as the player of some future Dragon Age offering that includes the addition of a god-child to the plot sounded interesting.) So, if I'd thought there would've been any chance that Alistair would agree, I would've asked him.

But think about what Morrigan's asking. She wants to do to an innocent baby exactly what she finds so abhorent when she discovers Flemeth wants to do it to her. That baby would be a future person, every bit as valid as anyone else, if it had a chance to become itself. Who that baby is would be destroyed at the time of possession by the Old God just as surely as Morrigan would be destroyed if Flemeth possessed her body.

[Stoomkal]

Those are not human guards, SFWhite.



They seem like "constructs" to me, they are not even given real names. Clearly I remember them as unmoving statues, that come alive and attack you.



Remember?



Sorry to correct such a minor point.

[SFWhite]

Stoomkal wrote...

Those are not human guards, SFWhite.

They seem like "constructs" to me, they are not even given real names. Clearly I remember them as unmoving statues, that come alive and attack you.

Remember?

Sorry to correct such a minor point.

Really? They bleed when you kill them, so I thought... hmmm... I do know the magic users are ghosts, but thought the soldiers were people. Hey, that must be why there's that puff of magical-looking smoke near them before the soldiers start to attack us!

If they are "magical constructs" then that would explain why Irving doesn't seem to mind sending you into the basement with Jowan and Lily, since Irving certainly knows the basement is guarded.

No need to apologize, any insight is always appreciated. Thanks. Ater all, I'm well aware I can be amazingly dense at times. LOL

[Kajan451]

Those Sentinels are Magic Constructs/Guardians. At the very least if you play the Witchhunt Addon you will face them again, and they will be effected by a tear in the veil and start attacking you again, because the Security System runs amok.

SFWhite wrote...

If that's the case, contrary to what Morrigan said when she asked you to kill Flemeth, wouldn't killing her actually really kill her? If not, and Morrigan's right about Flemeth eventually coming back, does killing any archdemon actually kill it (if Flemeth is one of their kin and she can return)?

They explain that bit to you. You can't kill the Archdemon because his essence travels to any other Darkspawn nearby, which is why they need the wardens. They taint themselves to create a legit target for the Archdemons Soul. Because the Warden does still have a soul and is no soulless husk Both spirits are kind of "destroyed"...


... of course, and i don't think thats anywhere in the game lore... i like to think the Wardens do not kill themselves but rather imprison the old gods with their own souls. Forcing the Old go to be imprisoned for a couple centuries...

I like to change it to this version in my head, simply because that way the whole Darkspawn thing is infinite. They can't truely beat the Darkspawn.. because eventually the Old Gods break free of the Warden souls and return to haunt the people.

I somehow dislike the idea of the wardens really killing gods. To me a god isn't to be killed by a mere mortal, no matter how cool that mortal is.

Modifié par Kajan451, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[SFWhite]

Kajan451 wrote...

Those Sentinels are Magic Constructs/Guardians. At the very least if you play the Witchhunt Addon you will face them again, and they will be effected by a tear in the veil and start attacking you again, because the Security System runs amok.

Boy, it looks like I really need to play Witch Hunt, doesn't it?  LOL

SFWhite wrote...

If that's the case, contrary to what Morrigan said when she asked you to kill Flemeth, wouldn't killing her actually really kill her? If not, and Morrigan's right about Flemeth eventually coming back, does killing any archdemon actually kill it (if Flemeth is one of their kin and she can return)?

They explain that bit to you. You can't kill the Archdemon because his essence travels to any other Darkspawn nearby, which is why they need the wardens. They taint themselves to create a legit target for the Archdemons Soul. Because the Warden does still have a soul and is no soulless husk Both spirits are kind of "destroyed"...

But... in Awakening it's shown that the Darkspawn aren't actually soulless. Rather they were just, well... enthralled(?) by the power of the taint... (rather like what the Star Trek Borgs do to those they subjugate). What's-his-face-problem finds a way to overcome that, allowing his brothers to individualize and begin to think for themselves.

... of course, and i don't think thats anywhere in the game lore... i like to think the Wardens do not kill themselves but rather imprison the old gods with their own souls. Forcing the Old go to be imprisoned for a couple centuries...

I like to change it to this version in my head, simply because that way the whole Darkspawn thing is infinite. They can't truely beat the Darkspawn.. because eventually the Old Gods break free of the Warden souls and return to haunt the people.

I somehow dislike the idea of the wardens really killing gods. To me a god isn't to be killed by a mere mortal, no matter how cool that mortal is.

LOL  Agreed.

But if there's truly only one god over all who made everything, The Maker, then all the lower entities, including the Old Gods are actually his constructs. Therefore, it might really be possible to kill such an entity, if The Maker allowed for it.

If mankind is ever to be redeemed in the eyes of The Maker and the Golden City cleansed and reclaimed, it seems eradicating them would not only be possible, but necessary. Since it was mankind who caused the problem, then it would have to be mankind who corrected it... at least if you buy into the Chantry version of the storyline... and the quest for Andraste's Ashes pretty well proves that some of it must true.

In Titan's Quest, you actually kill the last of the old, old gods, the Titans, who created the Olympian gods (who created man). So, killing a god, even a major one isn't unheard of in games.

Modifié par SFWhite, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:05 .

[SFWhite]

**UPDATE**
I just finished Witch Hunt, and it was very revelatory... and perplexing. It seems Flemeth is who my son said she was, one of the Old Ones, or at least akin to them in some way, and never at all human. So, why did she take Morrigan to raise? One, but not the only possibility was that she wanted Morrigan to birth the god-child for some reason.

I do believe that Morrigan's motives weren't self-serving, since she would've plainly said so if they were. Apparently, if you deny Morrigan at the final hour before you kill the archdemon, she doesn't go to some other warden, she remains childless, her plans to have the god-child are foiled.

But, even with that, she and I (and my dog) still remained friends til the end. I liked that. I wonder where she went when she stepped through that mirror? Past Ferelden and past the Fade... intriguing. It brings the elven stories of their gods' realms to mind, where the elves walked with their gods when the elves were still immortal.

It's hard to think Flemeth's motives hold any pleasure for mankind, especially since, just before she steps through the mirror, Morrigan warns that it's Flemeth I should be hunting.

Modifié par SFWhite, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[KaiserSaucy]

SFWhite wrote...
At the very first of the game as a mage character, when you help Jowan... or, actually, even if you tell Irving and work against Jowan... you are required to go into the tower's basement and help Jowan destroy his phylactery. There are guards all over the basement and, right from the first, you have to kill the guards to continue. The only way out of it would be to tell Jowan you won't help him, I guess, since you do have that option, but I never chose that option. (hmmm... Why haven't I? Maybe I'll make another character and see what happens if I tell Jowan I won't help him.)

Im almost certain that you cant get out of the Jowan thing, you have to go through with it in one way or another to actually leave the tower.  So you can help him and keep it a secret, you still get met by Irving and the templars on leaving the basement & Irving expresses his dissapointment in you.

Or you tell Irving & you know how that goes

[SFWhite]

KaiserSaucy wrote...
Im almost certain that you cant get out of the Jowan thing, you have to go through with it in one way or another to actually leave the tower.  So you can help him and keep it a secret, you still get met by Irving and the templars on leaving the basement & Irving expresses his dissapointment in you.

Or you tell Irving & you know how that goes

I had always chosen to help Jowan... (well, the game did seem to set us up as long-time friends, after all)... and didn't mind taking my lumps for a friend in the end, no matter who he turned out to be. Just like in real life, I felt his lying to me was a different issue between him and me, and had nothing to do with my loyalty to him otherwise.

It wasn't until my last two characters that I explored the options of "betraying" him and going the loyalist route. With one I was loyalist mage all the way... made me feel rather slimy... and with the other, I started out to help Irving, then, because I noticed there was an option to do it, I warned Jowan in the phylactery chamber, to see if he and Lily got away through that choice. Nope, same ending. Results: slimy-feeling all the way around.  LOL

All-in-all, sticking by my friend regardless made me feel the best. hmmm... prefering to side against authority, even when that authority is such a benign soul as Irving... what sort of character flaw does that reveal?

Oh, and since that post I've discovered the basement guards aren't real people... Witch Hunt made that extremely clear. Wish it had been clear from the first of the game.

[Loup Blanc]

KaiserSaucy wrote...

I agree that they should have given some more back story to it though, or maybe letting you read Flemeths book so you could see her ritual of possession in black and white & therefore know it wasnt just some invention of Morrigans.

Agreed.