30 réponses à ce sujet

[AndarianTD]

I'm currently working on my next module, Sanctum of the Archmage 3, and have been running into issues with some of the tilesets I've been using to build it. Knowing that folks with more technical knowledge about tilesets than I have tend to frequent the forums here, I thought I'd try posting them to a thread and asking if anyone might know how to resolve them.

• Rocky Mountains tilseset by Lord Rosenkrantz. I'm seeing an artifact that looks like a "hole" in the four corners of the tileset. The corners are roughly at water / ground level (z =-1 to +1) and the vantage point is on a castle roof on a mountain (z = 38).
• Seasonal Forest by Lord of Worms. I'd very much like to use the "Cathedral" group, but I'm finding that the game freezes anytime I try to load an area in which it has been placed. Has anyone else seen this, and could it be a GPU specific problem? (I'm testing on a laptop with an NVIDIA 9800M GS).

I'm hoping that these might be things that could be patched in a module specific hak, but don't know the causes or how to go about diagnosing them. Any help or feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks - Andarian

[Pstemarie]

Can't say for Rocky Mountains - been ages since I've used it, but it is possible that the "hole" you are seeing could be a bad transition along a tile seam. However, LR is exceptionally good at catching that sort of thing. Could you provide a screenshot?



Seasonal Forest - Beautiful tileset, but very hi-poly. When I was working with it I noticed that certain features or groups didn't seem to play well if the area contained a lot of other features. Have you tried loading an area that just has the cathedral?

[AndarianTD]

Pstemarie: thanks for the feedback! Regarding the Seasonal Forest cathedral: it happens even when it's the only tile placed in an otherwise blank (12x15) area.

I did just now think to check the log, though, and I'm pretty sure it's a problem with the door. The log ends with this following text (before I had to kill the process):
 

Failed to load Door model .mdl
Unknown Update sub-message

No door is visible in the toolset (except for the blue "arrow" on the floor); and when I try to open its properties from the resource pane, it says "The selected model does not exist. Please choose another one." I've seen this problem before on door models that do have a visible appearance in the toolset, but never on one that doesn't and causes the area to hang on load.

I had to do extensive 2DA merges to combine Project Q, CEP 2.2, CTP (+Generic Doors), Goudea's Futuristic City Interiors, and some custom Sanctum content. So it's possible that Seasonal Forest is counting on a door model being there that somehow got lost along the way in that process.  

Regarding the LR Rocky Mountains: I included a screenshot of the "hole" artifact in my original post (the text 'an artifact that looks like a "hole"' is a hyperlink to it). Here it is inline:

Modifié par AndarianTD, 02 décembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Zwerkules]

I looked at the seasonal forest tileset and didn't find a cathedral. If you mean the evil temple 3x2 group, I can tell you what is wrong with that. It is a building taken from NWN2 and one or more of those tiles have shadows turned on. NWN1 can't handle the shadows of those NWN2 buildings. If you want shadows for them you have to turn off the shadows of the buildings and make simple meshes that won't be rendered but cast the shadows. If the shadows of the buildings themselves are turned on, you get strange shadows across half the map at best, or worse the whole game can crash if the building's texture has an alpha layer.
The evil temple group also has lots of small gaps. Those won't crash or freeze the game, but should be fixed too.

[Edit] I typed this before you replied to pstmarie's post, but checked
out the temple groups in the toolset before I posted it, so I didn't see
you had already replied that a door is missing. If a door model or dwk
is missing this will always crash the game.

Modifié par Zwerkules, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[AndarianTD]

Zwerkules wrote...

I looked at the seasonal forest tileset and didn't find a cathedral. If you mean the evil temple 3x2 group...

No, I'm using that elsewhere with no problem. The Cathedral I'm talking about is under Groups: [Cobblestone]_Cathedral 5x3.

[Edit] I typed this before you replied to pstmarie's post, but checked out the temple groups in the toolset before I posted it, so I didn't see you had already replied that a door is missing. If a door model or dwk is missing this will always crash the game.

Then I need to figure out which door model is involved. Let me see if I can find the Cathedal model files in the hak and figure it out.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[AndarianTD]

OK, I'm a bit of a doofus. I didn't realize and just noticed that Seasonal Forest has its own doortypes.2da, which I never merged with my module's top hak. That's likely the source of the problem. I'm going to have to check all the other custom tilesets I'm using to make sure I haven't missed the same issue elsewhere. Thanks for helping to nudge me in the right direction!

[AndarianTD]

Yep, that was it for Seasonal Forest. It's working now, and I caught and merged a couple of other tilesets with custom doortypes and loadscreens as well. Still looking at trying to solve the Rocky Mountains "corner hole" issue, though.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[FunkySwerve]

Try using fog clip to cover it, matching color to the sky.



Funky

[Michael DarkAngel]

Could you try pin-pointing that position in the toolset.  Pass your mouse over the area and in the status bar you should see what tile is placed there.

From that we can better determine what the problem may be.  It could be as simple as the mesh not being positioned properly.


  MDA

[AndarianTD]

Michael DarkAngel wrote...

Could you try pin-pointing that position in the toolset.  Pass your mouse over the area and in the status bar you should see what tile is placed there.

From that we can better determine what the problem may be.  It could be as simple as the mesh not being positioned properly.

It's different in each corner, but the same problem (looking roughly the same) is visible in all four of them. They're as follows:

Northeast and Northwest corners (water): rkm__l_l_l_l_01
Southeast (water with wall crosser coming in from the west): rkm__l_l_gwg_01
Southwest (2nd level mountain raised terrain): rkm_m_g_geg_01

The "hole" starts out small and barely visible from ground level, and grows in size as the camera rises in height. Here's a short video showing what I mean. You can see the hole growing in the upper left corner as the player ascends the terrain.

Thanks! - Andarian

[AndarianTD]

FunkySwerve wrote...

Try using fog clip to cover it, matching color to the sky.

Reducing the fog clip distance has no effect on the visibility of these artifacts. They show up the same with the fog clip distance set to 30 meters or 80 meters (the area is 18x10). And even if that did help it would ruin the look of the area, which currently produces screenshots like this.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 03 décembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[AndarianTD]

OK, I have more information on the "hole" artifact. It occurred to me to wonder whether this could be a problem with the skybox instead of the tileset, since it is occurring where the two meet in the corners of the area. I tried a couple of tests and it turns out that is in fact the case.

The problem appears to be in the TROD_Vale skybox from the Community Skybox Pack (CSP). It looks like it may be common to at least some of the other TROD skyboxes, since it also happens with TROD_Clear. When I switch to the grass_clear skybox, however, it disappears.

So I guess my question shifts now to: does anyone know what's causing the problem with the TROD_Vale skybox, or how to fix it? Or alternatively, can anyone recommend any other / better quality skybox sources that I might be able to use?

Thanks -- Andarian

Modifié par AndarianTD, 03 décembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[Tyndrel]

The latest version of CEP includes some nice skyboxes by a number of artists, you could however take a look at this and see if any meet your requirements.

CEP Skybox Pictures

[AndarianTD]

Tyndrel wrote...

The latest version of CEP includes some nice skyboxes by a number of artists, you could however take a look at this and see if any meet your requirements.

CEP Skybox Pictures

Tyndrel,

Thanks for pointing that out. I checked through your document, though, and every one of the skyboxes in it has been part of the Community Skybox Pack (CSP) for years. My modules already use the CSP and have since 2007.

Do you know if the CEP folks fixed them up at all? The TROD skyboxes obviously need it. Unless they did, the CEP 2.3 material wouldn't be of any help to me.

Thanks -- Andarian

Modifié par AndarianTD, 03 décembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[FunkySwerve]

Acaos did some fixes on a few CSP skyboxes which should have made it into CEP, though I'm not sure about that one (only one I remember for a certainty is the inferno sky one, pictured here in our elemental plane of fire, though I think he worked on a couple). If fog clip isn't cutting it, there's not much to do short of fixing the skybox, since at that altitude, any tiles you throw down likely won't obscure it. I vaguely recall getting away with covering a few such gaps with higher elevation tiles, but not when the players are so high up. I think on the fog I was remembering using it to hide the edges of the area.



Funky

[AndarianTD]

FunkySwerve, thanks.

Does anyone know of a skybox primer I could check out? If I can figure out what's causing the artifact then maybe I could fix it up myself.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Tyndrel]

There is this brief tutorial on the vault...

How to make NwN skyboxes by Mohss

I am certain I've seen another at some point in the past but where it was currently eludes me.

[AndarianTD]

Tyndrel: Thanks. Unfortunately, all the images on that page seem to be missing.

Still, I think I've gotten the basic idea from looking at the content in the haks. Basically, there seems to be a model (which I assume is wrapped like a cylinder around the perimeter of the area), and a .tga sky texture that I assume is painted on the inside of that cylinder. If that's the case then the problem is probably with the model geometry, particularly at the base.

The TROD_Vale skybox refers to a model named ctpsky_013.mdl, which leads me to believe that it was originally a CTP skybox. Unlike some of the other models I've looked at (disclaimer: I don't currently have a good .mdl browser available), it looks more like a curved sheet:



Offhand I'd suspect that it's something about the bevel at the bottom of the model (probably set up that way to help reduce the corner distortion that appears with some other skyboxes?) that's causing the hole artifacts.

I still need the help of someone who knows more about how skyboxes work in NWN than I do, or alternatively a reference so that I can figure this out for myself. I'll start searching for one, but in the meantime any feedback along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

- Andarian

Modifié par AndarianTD, 04 décembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Invisig0th]

[Edit - I see you posted a reply while I was typing. Seems like we came to the same conclusion]

A skybox can be thought of as a special, giant placeable that is automatically positioned at the exact center of an area. The actual model for a skybox is generally a sphere or a cross-section of one, and generally positioned so that the center of the 'sphere' would be some distance above ground level. One common problem with skyboxes is that the radius of the sphere is too small. In extreme cases, players may even be able to literally walk outside the skybox at the corners of the map.

So what you are seeing is probably the bottom curve of that "sphere" poking through the tileset models at ground level. This explains why you see it in all four corners -- particularly if your area's length and width are identical.

There are several things you can try to address this one. The easiest solution would be to move the model itself downward on the Z-axis a bit. If you open up the ASCII MDL file in a text editor, you should be able to experiment with this in one of several ways. Personally, I'd start out by trying to [edit - decrease] the Z-axis position of the "dummy" node. There should also be a single trimesh in there, and you could [edit - decrease] its Z-axis position as well. Any 3-D modeler could also do this for you very quickly.

Another solution would be to trim your area size just a hair. Based on the screenshots, reducing your area by one tile in each direction might be enough. (In fact, you may want to just try this either way, just to see if we're on the right track here.)

Hope this helps!

Modifié par Invisig0th, 04 décembre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Tyndrel]

If it were just for one area would raising/lowering the terrain be a workaround rather than getting into custom modelling? Just a thought.

[AndarianTD]

Invisig0th, thank you very much! Your feedback and suggestions are just what I needed. I'm going to give that a try and will let you know how it goes. A quick question to make sure I understand: you suggested lowering the skybox by raising the z value of the dummy node. Is that right? Does the engine attach the dummy origin to a specific point above the center of the area, so that increasing the z value in the model would force the whole thing to move down?

Tyndrel: I don't mind a bit of basic model editing. It's easy when it's just text files and the edits are minor, and I've done a lot of that kind of customization already. And I've been thinking for a while that I really should set up a model editor, so I'll probably do that in the next few days anyway. I heard recently that there's apparently a .mdl converter for Blender, which should do nicely for my needs.

Unfortunately, raising or lowering the terrain is a very undesirable option, especially since this is a fully completed area that took me a week to get "just right." And judging from what I'm seeing I don't think it would work anyway. For example, one of the four corners is raised quite high (it's essentially a mountain slope), and while it obscures view of that corner's artifact if the latter is behind it, it's fully visible from other vantage points where that's not the case. The whole idea of this area is to be a castle in the mountains surrounded lowlands, and the module design really needs the area to be like that. So I don't think there's anything I can really do to obscure the artifacts from all of the high vantage points without a complete redesign of the area. Trying to fix up the model is definitely a preferable solution to that. And it would also allow me to use this skybox in other elevated/flying areas, of which I have a lot in Sanctum 3.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 04 décembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[_six]

Surely the simplest solution would just be to make the skybox bigger? Maybe 105% or so using NWMax's built in scaling tool.

Modifié par _six, 04 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Invisig0th]

Andarian -- I meant to say you should *decrease* the Z-axis value, which should shift the entire model downward just a bit. Which is to say, you're pushing the "sphere" downward, meaning the parts that are clipping get lowered into the ground and are thefore no longer a problem. The apex of your sky won't be quite as high, but that shouldn't be noticable.

I have in the past  confirmed that the engine does center the skybox model in the area lengthwise and widthwise. I cannot confirm whether or not the engine somehow  "centers" the model on the z-axis, but I seriously doubt it. Since  testing it will be extremely easy, I would suggest changing the z-axis to see what happens. Considering the very minimal amount of clipping seen in the screenshots, that will very  likely solve your immediate problem -- assuming you  will not be  increasing the length or width of that area.


Six -- My suggestions were specifically tailored for Andarian, who (like me) is not a 3D modeler. As a 3D modeler yourself, your definition of "simpler" would be different. But for those of us without such skills, editing a single (and easily found) number in a text file makes a lot more sense than installing, configuring and learning to use a 3D modeling program. Admittedly it is a bit of a hack, but I suspect it is exactly what is needed for a quick resolution to this specific situation.

However, if you are volunteering to resize this model for Andarian, I'm sure he would take you up on that kind offer. Expanding the skybox model using 3D modeling software as you suggested is certainly the most definitive and professional solution.

Modifié par Invisig0th, 04 décembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[AndarianTD]

_six wrote...

Surely the simplest solution would just be to make the skybox bigger? Maybe 105% or so using NWMax's built in scaling tool.

Actually, after some more tests I think the solution may well be to make the skybox cylinder tighter and/or lower. Take a look at this image:



This is what the model looks like in gmax:



It looks to me like what's going on is that if you're high enough, you're effectively able to look down the maw of the cylinder past the edges of the tileset padding and into the space between it and the lower edge of the skybox. Why the holes are only showing up in the corners I'm not exactly sure, but that's where there'd be the most distortion of the image. If the skybox cylinder were tighter and/or lower, I think it might mitigate the effect.

EDIT re: Invisig0th's followup: I agree, although I think that six's suggestion to try to resize the skybox model is probably within my limited skills. I can stumble by in NWMax / GMax and have played a bit with Blender, and would dearly like to spend the time to become more proficient with 3D modeling tools. The tradeoff I keep facing, though, is that every time I think of setting aside the time to do that I realize that I could be using that same time to implement a dozen quests and areas for Sanctum 3.
I suppose that what I really should be trying to do is recruit a larger development team...

Modifié par AndarianTD, 04 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Pstemarie]

Try lowering the cylinder - maybe so that the very bottom of the second line - where it no longer angles - rests at z -0-.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 04 décembre 2010 - 10:16 .