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They could have ripped out the combat in ME2 and it still would have been awesome.


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#26
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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Pacifien wrote...

This forum makes me sad in that I have to look at just about every thread and there is a surprisingly large number of them that have posters that make reference to the inferiority of ME2 versus their expectations. They criticize me often for constantly steering such topics to the Disappointment With Mass Effect 2 thread because they fail to realize just how pervasive such discussion is. They're only mentioning it in one or two threads, yeah? Only then someone else is also mentioning it in one or two threads. As is someone else. And someone else.

And people who browse through the forum might then think "does everyone dislike this game?" Perhaps it is only six people participating in 18 different threads, making it appear as if 18 different people dislike the game. Or perhaps it is 18 people participating in six different threads, keeping the ongoing discussion of their displeasure going strong for others to note.

Perhaps Mass Effect 2 was akin to the release of The Phantom Menace, where a legion of fans eagerly awaited the followup to their beloved series only to have Jar Jar Binks crush their dreams and hopes. Only a select few are willing to see Jar Jar for the harmless character he is.

It is also said that it easier to find fault than praise. People could very well have enjoyed playing Mass Effect 2, but the longer they ruminate upon their playthrough, the cracks start to show through. You focus on the cracks and start to see the hairline fractures. You put pressure upon it, and it shatters. You could have left it alone, but cracks are ever so distracting the more you look upon them.

What is there to say to the people who'd rather not focus on such disappointments? There are several who participate in the strategy forum. They have their strategy-specific complaints and recommendations for the next game, but overall they are dedicated to the game. Perhaps that fact fuels the argument that Mass Effect 2 was significantly altered from its predecessor to cater to a particular clientele, but that doesn't change the fact that the strategy community was strong for Mass Effect 1 and that liking a game for different reasons than your own somehow makes the people and the game inferior to you.

There are several people who participate in the character discussion forums, devoted to their favorite characters who were introduced in the second game. Is it wrong to enjoy a game so thoroughly simply for the love of a character, a game that was described by its developers as being about the characters? Or perhaps it is wrong because your favorite character was from the previous game and was overshadowed with subpar replacements.

A game is a sum of its parts. How many parts failed you probably dictate your overall impression of the game. I dislike threads that focus on the general nature of the game because those threads are all-encompassing. You could discussing anything and everything in a thread open to generalities. If you create a thread dedicated on the extremely broad topic of "overall story," you can then be incredibly selective in what elements you choose to bring into your argument to prove your point.

For instance, winter is horrible. The temperature is freezing for months on end. The days are short. The winds are biting. Snow turns to grey mush along the roadside. The driving conditions are hazardous. There are no watermelons.

But the holiday lights are bright in the long nights. Snow can glisten when freshly fallen. Children go ice skating. People build snowmen. There is pumpkin pie. Perhaps as a whole, winter is truly inferior to summer. But my point is that winter is a far-reaching concept, and I could pick and choose various elements about the season that put it in a bad light.

As such, I encourage the development of threads with very specific goals in mind. There should not be one thread to discuss all things krogan. Perhaps one thread discusses the genophage. Another discusses the blood rage. Another discusses Clan Weyrloc. Or with Cerberus, it is easy to create one thread just to discuss Cerberus. But there are so many things about this organization that can fuel their own individual threads.

And so we come to ME2 in general. Sure, you could throw every single reason why you didn't like ME2 into one thread. And I will simply close the thread and redirect you to the disappointment with ME2 thread. Why? Because you are speaking in generalities, and that thread is for speaking about the game in generalities. Even if you created a thread simply to discuss ME2's story, you are talking in too broad of terms because ME2 is a game of many stories and one story. Are you discussing the stories of the 12 squadmates? Are you discussing Shepard's story? Are you discussing the story of the Reapers? Are you discussing the story of the Collectors?

So for the people who enjoy Mass Effect 2, I simply advise to avoid threads of generalities. I encourage you to create your own threads. Not just threads to state your enjoyment, but why you enjoyed it. What beliefs of yours did you bring into the story as you played it? What is it about a singing salarian that pleases you so? What is it about Omega's ambience that gives you the feeling you are wandering through Hong Kong?

"We're at war! No one wants to admit it but ME2 is under attack! One very specific mod maybe all that stands between ME2 and the greatest threat of its entire life!"

"The complainers are still out there, if we lose Pacifien, ME2 fans may follow."

"Then see to it that we don't lose Pacfiien"[/i]

We will stop at nothing, even if that means our lives! We will FIGHT FOR ME2!

I think I can count the number of things that I didn't really like on one hand compared whilst the things I loved about it I would need more hands than I actually have to count that number.

I agree with what your saying Pacifien about how it would be good to see more topics about individual likes about the game, although I don't think this topic is too harmful, but then to me it's always nice to see people saying how they enjoy the game considering all the annoying 'negative' topics there are. To some extent you could consider this topic a counter to the fair number of topics where people have ranted about the combat in ME2 because the way I read the topic title, the OP is basically stating that the combat made the game even more awesome than it was even if the combat hadn't been there...

Anyway am now going to create my Team Cerberus topic, because I ain't seen one (though probably not done a thorough search of the other forums).

#27
Pacifien

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Tonymac wrote...
@Pacifen,

Your wall of text critted my eyes. Really man - sheesh.

@ Tonymac,

Your comment on my wall of text irks the moderator in me. People do not need the length of a post pointed out. They can determine whether they want to read it on their own. Stating it is a wall will not make me go back and shrink the size of it for you. Do not comment on the length of people's posts in the future. You either have a response to something in it or you can ignore it.


#28
Da_Lion_Man

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Pacifien wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...
Amazing post there, but you shouldn't forget this is a developers forum, such forums are usually full of complaints. Sad but true.*snip*

No, this is not a developers forum. The developers reserve the right to never glance once at these forums if they so choose. Luckily for us, they do glance over here once in awhile because it is a good source of feedback. It is, however, not the only source for feedback nor should one make the assumption their feedback is automatically looked upon with a critical eye.

These forums are primarily for the use of the fans to discuss the games, good or bad.


But if I understand this correctly, this is still a developers forum because well, it's the official Bioware website. And the developers do come here, especially the ones for Dragon Age. I think it's awesome how they respond to threads almost daily, I wonder how they have all the time for that. I respect those people.

I'm not saying the developers of ME are villains and lazy bastards because they aren't but it would be cool if they reply and discuss the game with us every once in a while. That's awesome.

When one wants to look for a forum specifically about Dragon Age, Mass Effect and/or other Bioware games, I think they will probably end up here.

#29
Pacifien

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No one should ever come to these forums with the expectations that it is a developers forum in any way. These forums were created for the fans to use. If you find BioWare personnel participating in the discussion, they are doing so on their own time and because they want to participate. They're under no obligation to do so. The only expectation you should have when you discuss various things on these forums is that other fans will be reading it.

#30
Da_Lion_Man

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Pacifien wrote...

No one should ever come to these forums with the expectations that it is a developers forum in any way. These forums were created for the fans to use. If you find BioWare personnel participating in the discussion, they are doing so on their own time and because they want to participate. They're under no obligation to do so. The only expectation you should have when you discuss various things on these forums is that other fans will be reading it.


I can definitely see where you're coming from and I know you mean well. I understand the complaining could really upset some people but that's the internet sadly, we'll have to live with it. People want to get their voice heard about Mass Effect, Dragon Age or the other Bioware games and there is no better place to do it than on the official Bioware website.

#31
Pacifien

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To that I simply have to say to critique the game in such a manner as you would have your own works critiqued. Be civil. Be productive. Be specific.

#32
axl99

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Hn. I empathize with the OP but generally disagree with the topic.



If the combat was ripped from the game, then a lot of the character missions - starting from waking up at Lazarus to covering for Garrus and extracting Tali on Haestrom - would have meant nothing because it lacked the impact of actually going in and saving their butts. A lot of the emphasis is placed on combat even in the first game because of who our protagonist is. Shepard's a soldier. Soldiers shoot things.



I tend to think ultimately some people wanted more story to even things out with the extra focus on gameplay in ME2. Truth be told, so do I. But if I really wanted to go with an interactive movie/game experience, I'd have gone with Heavy Rain - or Alan Wake if I wanted just some story with a side of shooting of things.

#33
adriano_c

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Personally, I don't think I can go back to playing something in the style of ME2 after having so much fun with New Vegas. Feels way too restrictive and linear.

#34
Nozybidaj

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Pacifien wrote...

No, this is not a developers forum. The developers reserve the right to never glance once at these forums if they so choose. Luckily for us, they do glance over here once in awhile because it is a good source of feedback. It is, however, not the only source for feedback nor should one make the assumption their feedback is automatically looked upon with a critical eye.

These forums are primarily for the use of the fans to discuss the games, good or bad.


I've often wondered where exactly does all this "feedback" come from if not from fans and the forum.  I've not once in the 20+ years I've been playing video games been sent a survey or given a form to submit feedback through to a developer.  I suppose today they are using electronic feedback through online means but in the end that is really just data without context and in my own job I know how difficult that can be to interpret correctly.  Do they rely on feedback from reviewers and review sites?  Yikes, thats a scary thought.  Even if they conduct their own external user testing I can't imagine it is a more significant sampling of a population than what the forums offer.  Where exactly does this feedback come from?  Especially when put in the context that feedback on a forum should be taken lightly.

#35
Mallissin

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I've yet to see a game mechanics idea drawn from fan opinion, so I think that's a bunch of BS. They snag funny crap from the forums and throw them in as cameo's if only to use it as a form of reality-tv Bioware style.



Most of the drastic gameplay changes in ME2 were polar opposites to why most people enjoyed ME1, so they should expect a lot of criticism and rightly so since the majority of the changes were unnecessary, trying to turn ME into another type of game completely or placating a platform.



I agree with the OP though, what makes us enjoy the game is the content. But as I've said before, if they don't clean up the frustrating crap they forced on us in ME2 I really think Mass Effect will be the gaming version of the Matrix trilogy (where no one admits they watched the second and third movie because they were so bad).



So, no matter how great the ending will be or the content along the way, if they can't work out the mechanics issues it'll still go down in history as the worst executed gaming trilogy. You might fondly look back at the characters or some of the missions, but then can't stand playing it again because it's a pain in the ass.

#36
Tonymac

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As a moderator, your purpose is to moderate. When I go to a forum thread, I do not expect to see a long thread of the moderator's opinions - I expect to see the forum thread on the topic listed. I do not expect to see that a moderator has ninjad the thread and turned it onto some kind of explanation about how winter is bad but good - filled and overbrimming with your opinions.





People (me especially) try to give the moderators and their posts extra attention simply out of respect. Once I had realised that this was an opinionated article (seeing how sad this forum made you, lengthy comparisons with jar jar binks and a pile of topics not at all on track with this thread), I decided to fire a shot across your bow. Honestly, I don't see any moderation here. I see a forum ninja sitting on the lofty soap box of a moderator.



My text was meant to irk you, in case you didn't pick up on that.






#37
AntiChri5

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Moderators can have personalities and opinions too.

If you see a post not worth reading, do what i do. Don't read it.

#38
Phaedon

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Tonymac wrote...


As a moderator, your purpose is to moderate. When I go to a forum thread, I do not expect to see a long thread of the moderator's opinions - I expect to see the forum thread on the topic listed. I do not expect to see that a moderator has ninjad the thread and turned it onto some kind of explanation about how winter is bad but good - filled and overbrimming with your opinions.


People (me especially) try to give the moderators and their posts extra attention simply out of respect. Once I had realised that this was an opinionated article (seeing how sad this forum made you, lengthy comparisons with jar jar binks and a pile of topics not at all on track with this thread), I decided to fire a shot across your bow. Honestly, I don't see any moderation here. I see a forum ninja sitting on the lofty soap box of a moderator.

My text was meant to irk you, in case you didn't pick up on that.



Hm ?
Pacifien is not exactly a Bioware employee, he was a regular poster before becoming a mod, at least that's what I have gathered.
'
Nobody has forced a)you to read a mod's post, b)a mod to not have the freedom to express her/his opinion.
Not to mention that it is easy to distinguish which posts are vital for you to read.

#39
Nozybidaj

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Tonymac wrote...


As a moderator, your purpose is to moderate.



/meh  Folks like pacifen are (as far as I know) not actual BW employees.  Just folks handed the moderator tag.  They aren't particularly exempt from exhibiting well estabished forum behavior.  I wouldn't be too harsh on anyone not sporting a BW tag.  I'd only hold actual company employees to a little higher standard of conduct, though that isn't always the case either sadly.

#40
Tonymac

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Using the position of moderator in that capacity seems wrong to me.

Call me crazy.

And no, I didn't know that green text was like must read and that regular text was just him/her  being themselves.

I'm not trying to bust chops here - cause I know if I'm a tool I'll simply get banned.

People who come to these forums can express things that irk them about the game even in a general chat - provided that they are not simply or completely expressing things that disappoint them about the game.   Not all little things that irk you need to be auto-diverted to the 'disappointed'  forum.

No offense meant, Pacifen - none at all.

Modifié par Tonymac, 02 décembre 2010 - 06:56 .


#41
Zulu_DFA

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ME? Awesome? IDK...



But ripping off all the combat from wouldn't hurt, that's affirmative.

#42
AntiChri5

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The green text is a way she seperates official serious business from her own panda self.

If being a moderator meant not being able to post your opinions, no-one would take the burden.

#43
Nashiktal

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I don't see what the problem is? Yeah there is a lot of negative, but I would be worried if there was none at all.



It is the good games that get the worst critiques. Just helps the game grow.

#44
Daewan

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@Tonymac: So, you've never read one of Paci's posts, and you just felt like ignoring what was written in this one because it was from a "moderator," and then on top of that, you decided to be insulting because you felt that Pacifien had somehow overstepped your imaginary rules? Before you derail the discussion any further, maybe you should stop writing and take some time to read the actual site rules, so that we're all on the same playing field for the same game.

In the meantime, for everyone else, being an Alliance Marine with no combat would suck. Of course the story needs to be strong enough to support the entire game, but interactive conflict is a necessary element of the game. It's a game. Not an interactive (*koff*Xenogears*koff*) movie.

#45
Guest_mrsph_*

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The story is only half of the equation in a videogame. A game can have an awesome story, the likes the world has never seen in a work of fiction, but if the game isn't any fun to actually play then I won't bother with it.

#46
Phaedon

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 Anyway, I hope that I am not going off-topic here by posting my views on how ME2 was perceived by the forumites.
I have to say, these forums are a sad read.Then why do I not stop coming here ? Because that's apparently all the new users do when they are confronted with a great and admirable variety on non-productive criticism, armchair game devs/testers/scientists, insults and extreme -if not offensive- opinions.

I continue to post here because I like ME2, no matter how many times a thread gets derailed over how much ME2 'sucks'. Being negative towards change is somewhat understandable. When people start complaining about how ME2 was not an RPG and that it had an inferior story, characters etc. It just gets a bit tiring. Sure, these are their opinions, but why do they have to state them as facts ? Or why do they find it so interesting to post
'Story ? ME2. lol'
in every few threads.

Now in response to the OP. Ripping the combat in ME2 ? I am expecting for a lot of sarcastic comments about how that would be a good thing or how it would actually make ME2 a game, like ME1 was, but does the OP have a point ?

Yes.

ME2 features an amazing story, some of the best characters I have seen in an RPG for years and graphics good enough to place the spotlight on it's amazing enviroments. Even if it wasn't for the gameplay, I would personally still prefer it over ME1. 

Sure, ME1 had a great story, though not greater, at least not by far than ME2's.
The whole game was about chasing around a rogue Spectre who happens to have been sighted in different worlds. Things do feel a bit rushed in the end, and the Conduit was rather confusing. We were looking for a...backdoor all the time ? 

It's characters were...OK, but nothing amazing. The character development fell short of my expectations.
Whereas, ME2's characters were deeply developed. Loyalty and recruitment missions mainly get the credit.

Modifié par Phaedon, 02 décembre 2010 - 07:10 .


#47
Da_Lion_Man

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Phaedon wrote...

 Anyway, I hope that I am not going off-topic here by posting my views on how ME2 was perceived by the forumites.
I have to say, these forums are a sad read.Then why do I not stop coming here ? Because that's apparently all the new users do when they are confronted with a great and admirable variety on non-productive criticism, armchair game devs/testers/scientists, insults and extreme -if not offensive- opinions.

I continue to post here because I like ME2, no matter how many times a thread gets derailed over how much ME2 'sucks'. Being negative towards change is somewhat understandable. When people start complaining about how ME2 was not an RPG and that it had an inferior story, characters etc. It just gets a bit tiring. Sure, these are their opinions, but why do they have to state them as facts ? Or why do they find it so interesting to post
'Story ? ME2. lol'
in every few threads.


I think you're overexaggerating a bit, you make it sound like this is Gamefaqs we're talking, but it's not as bad. Sure, there is a lot of pessimism here but it's not that bad IMO...

#48
XX55XX

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I honestly don't post on these forums too much, but I am surprised by the reaction to my thread. It seems that people are tired of reading endless pages of criticism about ME2 after all.

Personally, ME2 is my GOTY. I wouldn't call it the best game I've ever played, but it is one of the best. And its strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. Not to say that the execution was completely flawless, but it was very close to it.

I put far more value in ME2 being an interactive movie more than anything else... The shooting and "gameplay" aspects were merely things I had to do before I reached the next conversation scene.

#49
Fixers0

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Pacifien wrote...

This forum makes me sad in that I have to look at just about every thread and there is a surprisingly large number of them that have posters that make reference to the inferiority of ME2 versus their expectations. They criticize me often for constantly steering such topics to the Disappointment With Mass Effect 2 thread because they fail to realize just how pervasive such discussion is. They're only mentioning it in one or two threads, yeah? Only then someone else is also mentioning it in one or two threads. As is someone else. And someone else.

And people who browse through the forum might then think "does everyone dislike this game?" Perhaps it is only six people participating in 18 different threads, making it appear as if 18 different people dislike the game. Or perhaps it is 18 people participating in six different threads, keeping the ongoing discussion of their displeasure going strong for others to note.

Perhaps Mass Effect 2 was akin to the release of The Phantom Menace, where a legion of fans eagerly awaited the followup to their beloved series only to have Jar Jar Binks crush their dreams and hopes. Only a select few are willing to see Jar Jar for the harmless character he is.

It is also said that it easier to find fault than praise. People could very well have enjoyed playing Mass Effect 2, but the longer they ruminate upon their playthrough, the cracks start to show through. You focus on the cracks and start to see the hairline fractures. You put pressure upon it, and it shatters. You could have left it alone, but cracks are ever so distracting the more you look upon them.

What is there to say to the people who'd rather not focus on such disappointments? There are several who participate in the strategy forum. They have their strategy-specific complaints and recommendations for the next game, but overall they are dedicated to the game. Perhaps that fact fuels the argument that Mass Effect 2 was significantly altered from its predecessor to cater to a particular clientele, but that doesn't change the fact that the strategy community was strong for Mass Effect 1 and that liking a game for different reasons than your own somehow makes the people and the game inferior to you.

There are several people who participate in the character discussion forums, devoted to their favorite characters who were introduced in the second game. Is it wrong to enjoy a game so thoroughly simply for the love of a character, a game that was described by its developers as being about the characters? Or perhaps it is wrong because your favorite character was from the previous game and was overshadowed with subpar replacements.

A game is a sum of its parts. How many parts failed you probably dictate your overall impression of the game. I dislike threads that focus on the general nature of the game because those threads are all-encompassing. You could discussing anything and everything in a thread open to generalities. If you create a thread dedicated on the extremely broad topic of "overall story," you can then be incredibly selective in what elements you choose to bring into your argument to prove your point.

For instance, winter is horrible. The temperature is freezing for months on end. The days are short. The winds are biting. Snow turns to grey mush along the roadside. The driving conditions are hazardous. There are no watermelons.

But the holiday lights are bright in the long nights. Snow can glisten when freshly fallen. Children go ice skating. People build snowmen. There is pumpkin pie. Perhaps as a whole, winter is truly inferior to summer. But my point is that winter is a far-reaching concept, and I could pick and choose various elements about the season that put it in a bad light.

As such, I encourage the development of threads with very specific goals in mind. There should not be one thread to discuss all things krogan. Perhaps one thread discusses the genophage. Another discusses the blood rage. Another discusses Clan Weyrloc. Or with Cerberus, it is easy to create one thread just to discuss Cerberus. But there are so many things about this organization that can fuel their own individual threads.

And so we come to ME2 in general. Sure, you could throw every single reason why you didn't like ME2 into one thread. And I will simply close the thread and redirect you to the disappointment with ME2 thread. Why? Because you are speaking in generalities, and that thread is for speaking about the game in generalities. Even if you created a thread simply to discuss ME2's story, you are talking in too broad of terms because ME2 is a game of many stories and one story. Are you discussing the stories of the 12 squadmates? Are you discussing Shepard's story? Are you discussing the story of the Reapers? Are you discussing the story of the Collectors?

So for the people who enjoy Mass Effect 2, I simply advise to avoid threads of generalities. I encourage you to create your own threads. Not just threads to state your enjoyment, but why you enjoyed it. What beliefs of yours did you bring into the story as you played it? What is it about a singing salarian that pleases you so? What is it about Omega's ambience that gives you the feeling you are wandering through Hong Kong?


Gread post Pacifien, sums most things up very good, though i have to disagree with you on the last part.
You encourge us to create threads on very specific things, although i can understand that it's better to say exactly what we like or don't like, though on the onder side, for the people here who are very critical about the plot of Mass Effect 2 (Including me) it's important to allow us to talk about general things.

You see if we wan't to prove to someone that the plot in Mass effect 2 doesn't make sense we need to look to the game as a whole as then we can see the problems with it, now you can constantly show people particular things of the game, but to really understand why we are so critical we need to look at the plot as a whole.

#50
Talogrungi

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I'm a fan of both shooters and RPGs.

Speaking for my own preferences, I would have enjoyed ME2 much less if the combat was removed. I certainly wouldn't have played it through so many times using different classes and difficulty settings.