121 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackwindTheCommander]

Tonymac wrote...

Most of us, ( I am assuming 99%) really do enjoy this game - why else would we be in the forums? We love the game. Its practically a given.

 You obviously haven't been to the Bungie forums lately. >.>

Critiscism is good. Critiscism when taken right makes us strong. However, blatant attacks only hurt.
Obviously people are going to have problems with the game. Thats fine. If they post it in an easily understandable manner, and enough people agree, these problems will be fixed in the next game.

However, constant complaints will only break down the community. Its like a disease. One point of infection and soon its spreads until we can't stop it. I don't like to have to draw the comparison, but I will to get the point across.

Bungie's Halo Reach forum were designed, not unlike this one, to allow players to voice thier opinion. Though the amunt of constant attacks on the game (one which I doubt anyone who complains about it could make) have made them uninhabitable.

One person would complain in an unconctructive way about how "AL Sucks"

Then someone would counter complain. Soon a flame war would commence.

And before you know it th forums are flooded with people attacking not just the game but eachother!

Please lets not let this happen. People are going to dissagree, but this is one of the best commnities I have ever seen. I'd like it to stay that way.

[Pacifien]

Nozybidaj wrote...
I suppose I don't really have a point I am trying to make here, I just find it rather silly any time you see forum moderators (and just not here but anywhere) discounting feedback and trying to tell folks their opinions are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things when it really can be seen as one of the most condensed and valid forms of feedback that are actually available.

If this is what you feel I am saying, then you are misunderstanding my intent. I never said that the developers would discount feedback from these forums, nor have I tried to give people the impression that their opinions are insignificant. Nor am I voicing my opinion as a moderator, as my words and opinion are much the same as they were before they asked me to become a moderator.

I simply ask for people to put their opinions in perspective. You want the game to meet all your expectations. Who wouldn't want that from their games? But where do your expectations compare to that of everyone else? Where do your expectations compare to that of the developers own intentions? One of the more difficult aspects concerning actually responding to critique is knowing where your suggestions can actually make for an improved game no matter the expectations or simply improve the game to meet your specific expectations. They are making a game for themselves, then for many, then for you.

But in regards to how valid the feedback is from the forums themselves, I imagine the developers do look upon the forums frequently. Much feedback I have seen on these forums since the game's release has found some form of response within each new DLC the developers release. I just don't want people to treat the forums as a developers forum, where they actively seek out feedback for improvements and suggestions to implement in the game. These forums are not for them, they are for you. And yes, you can spend your time on the forums trying to get the attention of a developer, I'd simply rather people didn't. Fans should be conversing with each other, not looking to get their ideas implemented into the game.

[onelifecrisis]

On the subject of combat, which some people are debating, I would say (having recently replayed ME1 and ME2) that:

ME1's combat was great when it wasn't (a) ruined by AI bugs, cover bugs, physics bugs, etc. or ( interrupted by endless time sinks like inventory management, hacking/bypassing, driving the Mako, etc. Unfortunately, (a) and ( make up a lot of the combat in ME1.

ME2's combat was less buggy and more streamlined, but the inability to use powers on protected enemies turned it into more of a shooter and less of an RPG.

Were it not for the Charge skill then I would say that overall ME1's combat was better when it was actually working. But, when playing ME2 as a Vanguard, Charge single-handedly elevates the gameplay to a whole other level. Charge is cool, it's unique, and it's very tactical. That said, playing ME2 as any class other than Vanguard feels to me like playing a slick but relatively uninspired shooter. Most of the time, firing your gun is more effective than using any of your powers. For example, an unmodded Shuriken machine pistol (no ammo powers, no upgrades) does more than 700 points of damage vs shields in just over 2 seconds... so why would Engineer Shepard ever bother using Overload?

Anyway, having gotten that off my chest, I'll say in response to the OP: no, IMO ME2 would not be a good game if you took out the combat. On my first playthrough I enjoyed the combat, but the absurd plot had me almost flinging my mouse at the wall more than once.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Nozybidaj]

Pacifien wrote...
They are making a game for themselves, then for many, then for you.

This is just so diametrically opposed to the way software (or really any product) development works in the real world that I find it hard to accept at face value.  Perhaps it is entirely true, at which point there really is very little need for any kind of feedback at all which of course makes the discussion pointless.

I've yet to play any of the DLC for ME2 so I can't make a judgement on whether or not feedback is truely being incorporated into new products or not so I guess I'll take your word for it.  /shrug

In any case, interesting discussion.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Pacifien]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
They are making a game for themselves, then for many, then for you.

This is just so diametrically opposed to the way software (or really any product) development works in the real world that I find it hard to accept at face value.  Perhaps it is entirely true, at which point there really is very little need for any kind of feedback at all which of course makes the discussion pointless.

Not necessarily if you consider how the creative process works. An artist or writer is trying to convey a certain sense of meaning through their works, and with feedback, they can learn to convey their intentions better. When you are creating something for entertainment value, you depend on feedback to gauge the success of your entertainment.

But no one is going to pour their heart and soul into developing a game if they don't first enjoy it on a personal level. They could, they could view it as simply a means with which they obtain a paycheck, but that soulless approach will shine through their finished product. And BioWare has not been known for this sort of approach. The developers make a game that they themselves wish to play: that's why a couple of doctors decided to create a gaming company versus practice medicine.

[onelifecrisis]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I've yet to play any of the DLC for ME2 so I can't make a judgement on whether or not feedback is truely being incorporated into new products or not so I guess I'll take your word for it.

The LotSB DLC, while not perfect, does show distinct signs that BW care about our criticisms.
So does the gameplay of ME2 for that matter (it directly addresses a lot of things people disliked about ME1).

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Nozybidaj]

Pacifien wrote...
They could, they could view it as simply a means with which they obtain a paycheck, but that soulless approach will shine through their finished product.

I suppose the success at which this is obtained is a matter of opinion.

onelifecrisis wrote...
The LotSB DLC, while not perfect, does show distinct signs that BW care about our criticisms.

So I've heard, but even as a Liara fan and the creator of the Liara thread I can't muster up enough care anymore to be bothered.  /shrug

[Iakus]

Pacifien wrote...

I simply ask for people to put their opinions in perspective. You want the game to meet all your expectations. Who wouldn't want that from their games? But where do your expectations compare to that of everyone else? Where do your expectations compare to that of the developers own intentions? One of the more difficult aspects concerning actually responding to critique is knowing where your suggestions can actually make for an improved game no matter the expectations or simply improve the game to meet your specific expectations. They are making a game for themselves, then for many, then for you.

One problem is we (or I) simply don't understand the logic of some of the choices made.  If someone said to me "it's all part of The Plan.  trust me, you'll love how ::insert problem I had with game here:: gets handled in the next game." I'd probably be a lot less...vocal..., as it were. 

As an example, I knew well before hand that Liara and the VS wouldn't be recruitable.  And why.  Knowing this, I was totally cool with it.  I was less cool about how it was handled in-game, but here you go

Now, as to the thread at hand:
 
I don't really mind the combat in ME2.  Sure there are some things I'd like to see altered, but nothing's really game breaking for me.  As long as it stays consistent, I can deal.  COmbat's not my first priority in a game.

Concerning the  minigames: While really simple, are a definite step up from ME 1.  Man that got boring!  And this is someone who's more or less neutral on the whole mining thing

Exploring:  This is one aspect of gameplay that is...not so good.    I miss being able to drive around on a planet's surface, find a ginormous skull and go "Huh, where'd that come from?"

Decision making and interaction:  I'd agree, if I knew for certain that it would amount to anything.  Which I don't.  I'll just leave it at that.

Nozybidaj wrote...

So I've heard, but even as a Liara fan and the creator of the Liara thread I can't muster up enough care anymore to be bothered.  /shrug

Take it from a card-carrying ME2 "hater":  This is the only piece of content DLC I've purchased for ME2.  It was money very well-spent.  And this is coming from an Ashley fan

[FoxShadowblade]

onelifecrisis wrote...

The LotSB DLC, while not perfect, does show distinct signs that BW care about our criticisms.
So does the gameplay of ME2 for that matter (it directly addresses a lot of things people disliked about ME1).

Like the Mako, for instance. I hated that thing.

And yes, I liked the planet scanning...
Let me say that again. I liked the planet scanning.

On the subject of combat in ME2 and ME1. If they stripped the combat from either game, it would still be a great game, just not as great, in my opinion. The combat in ME1 was interesting and complicated when I started playing, but then it got enjoyable, and then it got too easy for me. ME2, on Insanity, was some of the best fun I've had in a looong time with a shooter. I loved the combat in ME2, I felt it was far superior in many ways.

[Encarmine]

bah its the same in every single forum i ever join, always, ALWAYS people who like to sit back and pick holes and play critic on the whole thing, and others who feel the need to defend said product.



i feel sorry for the volenteer sneering critic segment of the internet, you see them everywhere, they will even make pointless comments on 1 min long u tube videos.



i will never understand the logic of taking the time to join a fan forum, to simply try and burn it down with limited intelligence.



end of the day, they still have your money for the game you like to pick holes in.

[HolyJellyfish]

@pacifien

I agree with you 100%



I think a lot of people who were disenchanted with ME2 should not be throwing around hatred like a toddler throwing a tantrum. A lot of money, resources, and love went into the development of the game, and some people have a tendency to forget that. Developers or people who genuinely loved ME2 end up feeling insulted, rejected, and frustrated. Its one thing to offer polite critique, and another entirely to be hateful and insulting.

[Sajuro]

Encarmine wrote...

bah its the same in every single forum i ever join, always, ALWAYS people who like to sit back and pick holes and play critic on the whole thing, and others who feel the need to defend said product.

i feel sorry for the volenteer sneering critic segment of the internet, you see them everywhere, they will even make pointless comments on 1 min long u tube videos.

i will never understand the logic of taking the time to join a fan forum, to simply try and burn it down with limited intelligence.

end of the day, they still have your money for the game you like to pick holes in.

It's the internet, I doubt anyone here is using their real name and I am certaintly not a green asari, thus people feel more comfortable being total dicks and people just start ignoring them at the escapist.

[Onyx Jaguar]

they could have ripped out my face and given ME 2 combat some awesome

[AdmiralCheez]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I think a lot of people who were disenchanted with ME2 should not be throwing around hatred like a toddler throwing a tantrum. A lot of money, resources, and love went into the development of the game, and some people have a tendency to forget that. Developers or people who genuinely loved ME2 end up feeling insulted, rejected, and frustrated. Its one thing to offer polite critique, and another entirely to be hateful and insulting.

THIS.  THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.  MY GOD IN HEAVEN, THIS.

The one thing I love about any form of art or entertainment more than anything else is when I can tell that the people who made it had fun with it and are proud of the end result.  I have come to adore bands, artists, and films I would otherwise dismiss because the joy of making something just for the sake of making it shines through.  Bioware's games, with their attention to detail and genuine humanity of each of their characters, are a rare gem of artistry in today's copy-paste gaming culture.  Sure, ME2 has a lot of flaws, and you can tell that certain aspects were put in for the sake of an easy selling point, but there are moments where I can just feel the amount of pride the developers put in their work.  Even better than that, there are times when Bioware knows they goofed, and they turn it into a memorable in-joke.  It takes a lot of balls to admit a mistake, and self-satire is an art rarely mastered.

So watch the criticisms you drop, otherwise Bioware will either overcorrect *coughINVENTORYcough* or stop caring.  Both reactions are, in my opinion, very, very bad.

[Tonymac]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I think a lot of people who were disenchanted with ME2 should not be throwing around hatred like a toddler throwing a tantrum. A lot of money, resources, and love went into the development of the game, and some people have a tendency to forget that. Developers or people who genuinely loved ME2 end up feeling insulted, rejected, and frustrated. Its one thing to offer polite critique, and another entirely to be hateful and insulting.

THIS.  THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.  MY GOD IN HEAVEN, THIS.

The one thing I love about any form of art or entertainment more than anything else is when I can tell that the people who made it had fun with it and are proud of the end result.  I have come to adore bands, artists, and films I would otherwise dismiss because the joy of making something just for the sake of making it shines through.  Bioware's games, with their attention to detail and genuine humanity of each of their characters, are a rare gem of artistry in today's copy-paste gaming culture.  Sure, ME2 has a lot of flaws, and you can tell that certain aspects were put in for the sake of an easy selling point, but there are moments where I can just feel the amount of pride the developers put in their work.  Even better than that, there are times when Bioware knows they goofed, and they turn it into a memorable in-joke.  It takes a lot of balls to admit a mistake, and self-satire is an art rarely mastered.

So watch the criticisms you drop, otherwise Bioware will either overcorrect *coughINVENTORYcough* or stop caring.  Both reactions are, in my opinion, very, very bad.

  I agree.  Besides, if some1 really hated the game that much, why play it?  Why go to the forums?  Why sit here in a forum and bash?  Seems pretty darned pointless to me.

  I love the game.  Its really a blast - a true work of art to steal a thought from AdmiralCheez. 

  I do think that there is room for improvements, but those are minor things - I have, in fact, voiced these opinions in other threads - threads designed to compare ideas about overall things we don't want to see in ME3.  I was really amazed to see that there are people out there who actually like planetary scanning. 

  Basically, this is the kind of game that starts convos at work.  My boss saw the background on my computer, and had to play 20 questions.  It was a Geth hacked by the Overlord, all green and somewhat digitized.  Do you have any idea how hard it is to explain to some1 who has never seen the game, who has no idea what a Geth (or anything else)  in the game is?  He was totally amazed at the scope and detail of the game.

  My point in bringing this up is:  This is the the kind of game that I would recommend to a friend.   I feel that they would get as much enjoyment as I do out of it.  So very few games nowadays are really worthy of sharing - but ME2 is a gem worth it.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Tonymac wrote...

  I agree.  Besides, if some1 really hated the game that much, why play it?  Why go to the forums?  Why sit here in a forum and bash?  Seems pretty darned pointless to me.

Simple.

1. This is a discussion forum for Mass Effect, there are no rules that state we must not criticize the series. One can hate the series and he can still want to discuss the series. That is his/her right, the forums shouldn't be made exclusively for big fans and fanboys.

2. Some people want to get their voice heard. What better place to do it than on the official Bioware forums?

[SithLordExarKun]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...



Simple.

1. This is a discussion forum for Mass Effect, there are no rules that state we must not criticize the series. One can hate the series and he can still want to discuss the series. That is his/her right, the forums shouldn't be made exclusively for big fans and fanboys.

And its still utterly pointless seeing that constantly bashing a game that has been out for 11 months isn't going to change anything nor will it actually make you any happier. If you think the game was such a dissapointment to an extent that it starts to affect your life(which it does to you and the other fanatics living in this forum) then go see a psychiatrist and get help.

Then again, hate the game so much, why play it and why post? Its like you watched a horrible movie and you keep replaying it and keep reminding yourself about it. Thats just utterly stupid and pointless and only people with social issues do that.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...



Simple.

1. This is a discussion forum for Mass Effect, there are no rules that state we must not criticize the series. One can hate the series and he can still want to discuss the series. That is his/her right, the forums shouldn't be made exclusively for big fans and fanboys.

And its still utterly pointless seeing that constantly bashing a game that has been out for 11 months isn't going to change anything nor will it actually make you any happier. If you think the game was such a dissapointment to an extent that it starts to affect your life(which it does to you and the other fanatics living in this forum) then go see a psychiatrist and get help.

Then again, hate the game so much, why play it and why post? Its like you watched a horrible movie and you keep replaying it and keep reminding yourself about it. Thats just utterly stupid and pointless and only people with social issues do that.

I think you're being way to judgemental. But that is your right to be that way. I'm glad that I can't kick you out because I think you don't add anything to the forums. Contrast builds character! 

like has been stated earlier, you really don't know who you're talking to. You're just guessing.

[SithLordExarKun]

Im just stating an observation.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 11 décembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Read first three posts. I too have talked some serious crap on ME, the reason why people do it so much on the ME forums is that they like ME believe it or not. I really like ME so when I see something I don't like in the game it really disapoints me and I point it out. That's how things improve, if we acknowledge flaws and don't repeat them future versions get better. If we ignore flaws just because we like the game, we do them over and over, and it stays good but never improves.

There are alot of other games I hate everything about, but you don't see me going on their forums and pointing out their flaws. Why? Because I don't care. I just don't play or talk about those games at all. We complain because we care. Haha! Anyway, I don't flame people about it either way, and no one should.

I halfway agree with the OP. A huge reason why I love ME is that it gets you so involved with the characters! And the ability to get yours laid, definently doesn't hurt haha! Although I didn't find ME2 as good as ME1 in that respect. Play through ME1 and after EVERY SINGLE main mission all of the major characters have something new to say about that mission and many have new stories to tell you about themselves, and new insight into your relationships with them.

I was hoping in ME2 they would expand it so there would even be new convo's about side missions and minor things, but it seemed like everyone had way less to say in ME2. There were only 3 or 4 different main convo's with whatever Shepard's love intrest was and if you completed major missions inbetween they'd just say, talk to me later. Same with all the other characters. And I say that both because it's true at least from my perspective, and because I care.

Also Combat: I hate the cover mode, in any game. That's not how cover works and the mode just slows you down because you have to enter/exit it to move around. Cover mode, you post up on a corner, point your gun down, then lean out (get shot), do a dramatic sweeping motion to bring your gun up (get shot some more), shoot back (and shot some more), reverse that dramatic sweeping motion to bring the gun back down (shot more), then lean back into cover. If you just stand behind the cover and stay in your shooting stance, take one side step to barely peak around already in shooting stance, pull the trigger and step back immediately, you greatly reduce the damage the enemy can do to you, and keep the same amount you can do to them. On a per peak basis. It just works better than having a cover mode.

In ME1 I ignored the covermode entirely, and it worked really well doing so. But the cover mode being automatic anytime you have a gun out and stand too close to cover got me killed on numerous occasions by causing me to miss critical shots (especially against Krogan). I've got the shot lined up he's got barely any life left I'm about the squeeze the trigger then bam oops I stepped too close to cover entered cover mode, didn't get to take the shot, he got back to cover and recovers completely in seconds and I have to start all over with this guy. That sucked.

ME2 seemed like it improved at first. You have to push a button to entercover mode. So no more accidently entering it during a critical shot moment. But they bound that action to be on the same key as sprint, what? That's two completely opposite things, stay here and take cover, and get the hell away as quickly as possible. Why would you have those on the same button. Ended up getting me killed even more often than the first ME cover mode, because everytime I'm inches from dead and need desperately to retreat far away, Shepard automatically takes cover on any object I sprint within 15 feet of! on the wrong side, because I'm running AWAY and the closest side to me is the one facing my enemies! Plus they took out the ability to crouch manually which made it imposible to use low level cover without the special cover mode. In the old game you could just crouch down and stay in shooting stance as long as you don't get too close to the cover, then just tap the stand button to pop up shoot and duck back down foregoing all the dramatic time consuming manuvers of the cover mode. No more in ME2 so you had to find tall cover all the time.

What they should do for ME3 and should have done for ME2 and probably since the begining. Is not have a cover mode at all, and give Shepard the ability to swith shoulders so he can go around right hand corners gun first. As is you have to find tall cover that has a left hand corner toward your enemies. Otherwise you have to go around shoulder first and get shot up before your gun gets out where ou can shoot it.

Anway, some flaws, some suggestions, all because I like the game and would like to see it get better. But it's all way too late anyway. By this point they're probably just workign out a multitude of bugs in the production of ME3, hope they figured it out on their own...

[Da_Lion_Man]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Da_Lion_Man wrote...



Simple.

1. This is a discussion forum for Mass Effect, there are no rules that state we must not criticize the series. One can hate the series and he can still want to discuss the series. That is his/her right, the forums shouldn't be made exclusively for big fans and fanboys.

And its still utterly pointless seeing that constantly bashing a game that has been out for 11 months isn't going to change anything nor will it actually make you any happier. If you think the game was such a dissapointment to an extent that it starts to affect your life(which it does to you and the other fanatics living in this forum) then go see a psychiatrist and get help.

Then again, hate the game so much, why play it and why post? Its like you watched a horrible movie and you keep replaying it and keep reminding yourself about it. Thats just utterly stupid and pointless and only people with social issues do that.

You should keep the insultments and prejudices to yourself.

Perhaps they like the first ME1 and the series as a whole, but don't like ME2. So those people are not welcome? They want to rant about it and try to be constructive, in the hope they will get heard. Besides, people love to complain, they will never get tired of it.
And who are you to tell who should and should not join a forum? People will do as they please and there's nothing you can do about it.

[HexHammer]

- good simplifyed gameplay in ME2

- cool and massive dialogue brancing in ME2

- quest diversity not playing ME1 and playing ME1 will affect ME2

- liked the ME1's massive and beautiful capitals, dislike the ME2's capital designs

- actually refreshing with no loot craze like in any other RPG, making it not annoying to kill mobs on unreachable places.

- bit weird gamedesign with thermal clips respawning and are scatterd around the areas, and furniturs and other fragile thingies serves as bulletproof covers ...plothole.

- model ships and dedicated montre is an AWESOME thing

- fish tank is awesome, but poorly implemented as the fish looks butt fugly! ..and moves stiff around.

- carry unrealistic high amount of shooters like soldier and engineer

- poor design, no help text choosing bonus spells,