173 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, speaking about Zevran, I like his line where he says he prefers women if given the choice. Mostly for vanity's sake on behalf of my femWarden. But little details like that also make a character more concrete. It makes sense based on Leliana's history that she'd be more into the chicks. Shouldn't really put a male Warden off, though. If anything I would think it would be flattering that she'd go against her natural predilection because the Warden is just that yummy.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Addai (female version) on something Leli related!! 

Little details like this one add to a character's complexity and make them more real. Preferring one gender over the other doesn't mean she can't like the other gender, it's just part of who she is.

And seriously, regardless of which gender she's more comfortable with, she's willing to romance them both and she'll grow to love any warden that romances her, female or male. So this really shouldn't be a big deal.

[ejoslin]

when her dialog is properly fixed, the way she reacts to a male warden and a female warden are actually quite different post marjolaine -- she is far more open with a female and more guarded and coquettish with a male. But by the time she declares her feelings, she's over it, however, and her declaration is pretty much the same for either gender.

I would say the most telling fact about Leliana preferring women is that women are designed to get a second chance at a romance with her, and the guys pretty clearly only get one chance (though there are two opportunities for a guy to start it as well if she's working as the notes indicate) -- if he breaks up with her, he's not supposed to be able to restart it (romance bug aside).

Edit: What I mean is this -- Leliana, as near as i can figure from the script notes and such (so i made it work like this), if a female tells her when Leliana has the hair conversation that she is not into women or that she finds Leliana too frivolous, there will never be a romance -- there will never be another chance to start it.  However, if the female warden starts the romance at this point, then breaks up with her for whatever reason, she will still have a chance in the post-marjolaine conversation to rekindle the romance.

Males, however, can start it in the conversation with a bit of flirting when they first meet.  However, if he breaks up with her, that should be permanent (this is the way it works with Zevran and Alistair as well, bugs aside).

In the post-marjolaine convesation, only females are supposed to get the whole history of marjolaine and be compared to her.  Males are supposed to get comments like, "Fishing for compliments, are we?" and, if the romance has not been cut off, a line about having a new life, new loves, etc."

Of course, in an unmodded game, it doesn't work quite like this.   I think mine is the only mod that does have it working this way as that conversation is a total and complete mess.

Second edit: Actually, regarding the hair conversation, it actually is supposed to trigger at 51+ and there is complaining in one of the scripts that it's triggering too soon.  However, the way approval is laid out, it would be seriously annoying to have to actually have it trigger at 51+ warm.  I'm not sure if that's even possible.

THIRD edit:  Who Leliana is attracted to is both genders.  but the romances are supposed to play out slightly different depending on gender.  Zevran's also does.  I find the differences very interesting, and it's a shame that Leliana's is bugged to hell.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Sarah1281]

She's bi because she attracted to whats on the inside and not whats on the outside. Since women usually show more emotion than men it doesn't suprise me that she would perfer a woman.

No, she's bi because she is physically attracted to both genders. Caring about what is on the inside and not the outside may allow you to happily pursue a relationship with an unattractive person of whichever sex you're attracted to but you have to be physically attracted to BOTH sexes or else you're not going to pursue relationships with both sexes no matter how attractive they are or how great their personality is.

Edit: I mean, really. Say Leliana was written the exact same way except that she could only be romanced by females. Would this mean that she's attracted to what's on the outside and not what's on the inside? No. This just means that she would be a lesbian and not bisexual. Zevran is also bisexual and until the Warden (and to some degrees Taliesin and Rinna) he sleeps with both genders for business and pleasure. Does the fact he'll sleep with both genders mean he's doing it because he's interested in their inside and not their outside or does it mean that he's simply bisexual?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well, speaking about Zevran, I like his line where he says he prefers women if given the choice. Mostly for vanity's sake on behalf of my femWarden. But little details like that also make a character more concrete. It makes sense based on Leliana's history that she'd be more into the chicks. Shouldn't really put a male Warden off, though. If anything I would think it would be flattering that she'd go against her natural predilection because the Warden is just that yummy.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Addai (female version) on something Leli related!! 

Little details like this one add to a character's complexity and make them more real. Preferring one gender over the other doesn't mean she can't like the other gender, it's just part of who she is.

And seriously, regardless of which gender she's more comfortable with, she's willing to romance them both and she'll grow to love any warden that romances her, female or male. So this really shouldn't be a big deal.

Plus doesn't she say something about "I feel safe with you"?  That's a bigger compliment to a male Warden than to a female, considering what she went through.  Though if you'd been with Marjolaine I guess it applies either way.

WTH am I doing posting in a Leliana thread anyway?  *backs slowly away*

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Plus doesn't she say something about "I feel safe with you"?  That's a bigger compliment to a male Warden than to a female, considering what she went through.  Though if you'd been with Marjolaine I guess it applies either way.

That's what I was going to say. It's an equal compliment to both really, considering that she could easily associate what happened with Marjolaine to the f!warden.

WTH am I doing posting in a Leliana thread anyway?  *backs slowly away*

Aww, but I promise I won't go "princess stabbity stab" on you! 

ejoslin wrote...
Second edit: Actually, regarding the hair conversation, it actually is supposed to trigger at 51+ and there is complaining in one of the scripts that it's triggering too soon.  However, the way approval is laid out, it would be seriously annoying to have to actually have it trigger at 51+ warm.  I'm not sure if that's even possible.

I saw that in the toolset. It would've been TERRIBLE if that convo had been triggered at 51+. Unless you spammed her with gifts it would've been almost impossible to get her approval that high.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

I saw that in the toolset. It would've been TERRIBLE if that convo had been triggered at 51+. Unless you spammed her with gifts it would've been almost impossible to get her approval that high.

*grin* I only give a couple of gifts and have no problems raising her approval that high and I almost never romance her!  But your reaction is very much like the one in the Zevthread when I wondered there if i should make his approval match what all the notes say before being able to invite him into the tent and have the sexual history talk (it states everywhere, script comments, scripts themselves) that that's not supposed to happen until 51+.  I actually think Zevran would have been better received had they stuck with that, tbh.

[M-Taylor]

Sarah1281 wrote...

She's bi because she attracted to whats on the inside and not whats on the outside. Since women usually show more emotion than men it doesn't suprise me that she would perfer a woman.

No, she's bi because she is physically attracted to both genders. Caring about what is on the inside and not the outside may allow you to happily pursue a relationship with an unattractive person of whichever sex you're attracted to but you have to be physically attracted to BOTH sexes or else you're not going to pursue relationships with both sexes no matter how attractive they are or how great their personality is.
 

That's not actually strictly true.

I'm a bisexual male. I tend to find males more attractive, yet I have also dated women. I would say an attraction to a women, for me, is a very rare thing.

Why do I class myself as bisexual then? I prefer being in a relationship with a woman. I don't know, maybe it's purely psychological and I was taught from a very young age that the proper thing to do in life is reproduce and marry. I also don't find men as attractive in the concept of dating, and again, I have no clue why.

The point I'm making, myself and many other bisexuals actually class themselves as bisexual not due to multiple attraction of the physical body, but the different kinds of attraction. I mean, an attraction to a personality can be just as strong to sexual desire of the body, no?

It's on this concept that many people argue that everyone is a little bisexual. I mean, as much as straight guys/girls like to believe, I would be willing to bet that they've experienced atleast something akin to love for a friendship that you think could develope to something more, if only they were the right gender. It's the psychological point of view that limits you, and that's fine, but some people break away from that.

So yeah.. a bisexual person could be classed as someone more who finds both sexes attractive. Myself, and a few friends of mine, are bisexual because they find one gender attractive while finding the other gender more appealing to date. Maybe Lelianna suffers from this?

Modifié par M-Taylor, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* I only give a couple of gifts and have no problems raising her approval that high and I almost never romance her!  But your reaction is very much like the one in the Zevthread when I wondered there if i should make his approval match what all the notes say before being able to invite him into the tent and have the sexual history talk (it states everywhere, script comments, scripts themselves) that that's not supposed to happen until 51+.  I actually think Zevran would have been better received had they stuck with that, tbh.

I don't give her ANY regular gifts. I only give her the plot gifts (Andraste's grace and the cute nug) once her approval is already past 90+. So yeah, it would've been a bit hard to get her approval that high for me.

As for Zev at 51+, hmmm...  it probably would've reduced a lot of the "ZOMG ZEV IS TOO SLEAZY" comments. But I think it's fine that you can invite him to your tent with lower approval.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

*grin* I only give a couple of gifts and have no problems raising her approval that high and I almost never romance her!  But your reaction is very much like the one in the Zevthread when I wondered there if i should make his approval match what all the notes say before being able to invite him into the tent and have the sexual history talk (it states everywhere, script comments, scripts themselves) that that's not supposed to happen until 51+.  I actually think Zevran would have been better received had they stuck with that, tbh.

I don't give her ANY regular gifts. I only give her the plot gifts (Andraste's grace and the cute nug) once her approval is already past 90+. So yeah, it would've been a bit hard to get her approval that high for me.

As for Zev at 51+, hmmm...  it probably would've reduced a lot of the "ZOMG ZEV IS TOO SLEAZY" comments. But I think it's fine that you can invite him to your tent with lower approval.

It makes no difference to me so I didn't change it.  But it's hard to say whether it was a mistake, or they changed their minds and just didn't change the notes.  Anywhere.  i find that a bit unlikely.

[Sarah1281]

@M-Taylor: If you date women but aren't attracted to them, I wouldn't call you bisexual. If you are attracted to them but are more attracted to guys regardless of which you'd prefer to date, I'm not sure how that disagrees with what I said. Someone who is 100% homosexual or heterosexual can be far more concerned with what's on the inside than what's on the outside but unless there is some sort of pressure on them, they're not really going to date someone from the gender they're not attracted to. If Leliana was 100% homosexual or heterosexual than she could still be the same person who falls in love with what's on the inside but she would only go after Wardens of one gender. That fact that she is physically attracted to both has nothing to do with whether or not she cares what's on the inside or the outside.

Edit: 

It's on this concept that many people argue that everyone is a little bisexual. I mean, as much as straight guys/girls like to believe, I would be willing to bet that they've experienced atleast something akin to love for a friendship that you think could develope to something more, if only they were the right gender. It's the psychological point of view that limits you, and that's fine, but some people break away from that.

I also don't see the relevance of this. Leliana isn't a heterosexual girl whose experienced at least something akin to love to a friendship that they think could develop into something more. She is a bisexual who is attracted to and willing to be involved with both genders.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:55 .

[M-Taylor]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@M-Taylor: If you date women but aren't attracted to them, I wouldn't call you bisexual. If you are attracted to them but are more attracted to guys regardless of which you'd prefer to date, I'm not sure how that disagrees with what I said. Someone who is 100% homosexual or heterosexual can be far more concerned with what's on the inside than what's on the outside but unless there is some sort of pressure on them, they're not really going to date someone from the gender they're not attracted to. If Leliana was 100% homosexual or heterosexual than she could still be the same person who falls in love with what's on the inside but she would only go after Wardens of one gender. That fact that she is physically attracted to both has nothing to do with whether or not she cares what's on the inside or the outside.

Bisexuality is a complex thing though.

No, I wouldn't say I was attracted to women in the same way I am to men. I don't find females attracted until I've got to know them pretty well, while on the other hand with males, I can find them attractive instantly.

I can be in a happy, functional relationship with a woman. A normal relationship, basically.

I still wouldn't say I was attracted to them, because in reality, I'm probably not. I'm attracted to their personality, which transcript into the functionality of my relationship with them.

In that aspect, I would say I'm bisexual. I also have a female friend that feels the exact same way but swapped. She finds males attractive, but can only date females, so I would say (however, obviously I'm no professional.) that it's not overly rare. I'm not a one of the kind sample, by any means.

So, this relates to Dragon Age by translating to Lelianna. Maybe she only finds females attractive, but is open to the possibility of dating males once they get to know her and she understands their personality more.

Edit:

I also don't see the relevance of this. Leliana isn't a heterosexual
girl whose experienced at least something akin to love to a friendship
that they think could develop into something more. She is a bisexual who
is attracted to and willing to be involved with both gende

Not gunna lie, was very likely rambling. I think I merely mentioned it to give the idea and impression how regular people might understand the case of this in an easy way. I mean, not alot of people understand my... orientation, shall we say. They often react like you do, claiming I'm fully homosexual and only date women to feel normal. (¬_¬'). edit 2: (sorry, that didn't mean to sound quite so direct. It wasn't an attack on you, by any means. I'm just tired and really not wording things well. >.>)

The point is, I always viewed Lelianna as that sort of character. She's initially attracted to females, but open to the possibility of males. Zevran, however, is the classic bisexual character and swings both ways freely due to feeling an attraction to both, however has a clear preference to females.

Modifié par M-Taylor, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[ejoslin]

Leliana has had one serious relationship, and it was with a woman. I don't think that a sample of 1 is big enough to draw ANY conclusion.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Exactly!  That's why I totally don't get the people who hate Leli!  She's one of the sweetest characters you meet, despite all the abuse she's suffered.  The fact that she isn't jaded after all that is kind of inspirational imo. 

Well, if people are claiming that they hate Leliana because she's a horrid **** then I can see why you might get confused if you find her so sweet but I don't see why it's confusing that some people don't like her.

Don't like her?  No, I mean people who actually hate  her.  Obviously everybody has a different PoV, and Leli has her flaws.  I wouldn't expect everyone to love her to bits. 

What I don't understand where some of the annimosity comes from towards her... ie. pics with a knife in her head...

Actually, on second thought, I think I do (lol DSC).

Zjarcal wrote...

Axekix wrote...
All that aside though, I totally understand why she'd be more attracted to girls.  Guys are gross. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Axe, have I ever told you that I love you? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Unfortunately for you I'm a guy.  Tragic I know.

[Zjarcal]

Axekix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Axekix wrote...
All that aside though, I totally understand why she'd be more attracted to girls.  Guys are gross. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Axe, have I ever told you that I love you? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Unfortunately for you I'm a guy.  Tragic I know.

Well I didn't meant that I loved you like that...

More like, I love my Leli/Morri loving rottweiler who likes to poke fun at Alistair! <3

[Johnny Chaos]

the water god, are you the guy that kept posting penis phobia over at the wiki

[Axekix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Well I didn't meant that I loved you like that...

More like, I love my Leli/Morri loving rottweiler who likes to poke fun at Alistair! <3

D'awwww. 

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

What I don't understand where some of the annimosity comes from towards her... ie. pics with a knife in her head...

Actually, on second thought, I think I do (lol DSC).

No, no, no.  *slaps hand*  Both Mel (originator of the knife in the head) and I are old-time Leli haters, as I believe we established with you before.

Do you really want me to run it down again?  In short, a lot of the stuff she says makes me want to slap her.  Cutesy stuff gives me hives.  Pink bunnies and lollipops and shoe shopping strike some people as cute and charming, but others... not so much.    Said in a little girl voice in a French accent and it's even more .  Some poster once put it best when she said that Leliana is the kind of woman who, after hanging out with you for a while, would want to start playing with your hair.  "And then I'd have to break her hand."  That made me LOL so much for its truth, wish I could remember who said that.  Edit:  Oh, and then to find out she used to kill people for a living and talks in the same cutesy voice about torture and murder... cue Twilight Zone music.

Anyway, there you have it.  You made me do it!

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Do you really want me to run it down again?  In short, a lot of the stuff she says makes me want to slap her.  Cutesy stuff gives me hives.  Pink bunnies and lollipops and shoe shopping strike some people as cute and charming, but others... not so much.    Said in a little girl voice in a French accent and it's even more .  Some poster once put it best when she said that Leliana is the kind of woman who, after hanging out with you for a while, would want to start playing with your hair.  "And then I'd have to break her hand."  That made me LOL so much for its truth, wish I could remember who said that.

Anyway, there you have it.  You made me do it!

Admit it. You are a hardcore Ferelden woman who just hates fancy poncy Orlesians

(I am still trying to make sense of how you just had a 180 degrees shift vis a vis Loghain)

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[Johnny Chaos]

The Water God wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Leliana has had one serious relationship, and it was with a woman. I don't think that a sample of 1 is big enough to draw ANY conclusion.

Its not just Marjolaine but alot of the comments she makes suggests shes more physically attracted to a women. For example when you first pick her up, she has quite a few things to say how lovely the women were in the Lothering chantry, and that their "Forbidden Fruit" made them all the sweeter. Plus she also gives the female warden compliments on her looks through actual dialouge.

And like shes says during the Isabella post sex banter: 

Isabela: "She's quite feisty isn't she?"
Warden: "That's putting it mildly."
Isabela: "And you said she was a cloistered sister? I dare say the Chantry must be teaching things other than the Chant of Light."
Leliana: "Oh, no, no... I learned those things in Orlais. Bored noblewomen often come up with various methods of self-amusement."

Seeing as she's not technically a noble herself, and that she mentions noblewomen and not nobles in general its clear she spent most of her time with women.

what are you talking about? she has prolly had sex more with men because she was a bard, and I doubt she would play with her targets if she wasnt attracted to them.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

What I don't understand where some of the annimosity comes from towards her... ie. pics with a knife in her head...

Actually, on second thought, I think I do (lol DSC).

No, no, no.  *slaps hand*  Both Mel (originator of the knife in the head) and I are old-time Leli haters, as I believe we established with you before.

Do you really want me to run it down again?  In short, a lot of the stuff she says makes me want to slap her.  Cutesy stuff gives me hives.  Pink bunnies and lollipops and shoe shopping strike some people as cute and charming, but others... not so much.    Said in a little girl voice in a French accent and it's even more .  Some poster once put it best when she said that Leliana is the kind of woman who, after hanging out with you for a while, would want to start playing with your hair.  "And then I'd have to break her hand."  That made me LOL so much for its truth, wish I could remember who said that.  Edit:  Oh, and then to find out she used to kill people for a living and talks in the same cutesy voice about torture and murder... cue Twilight Zone music.

Anyway, there you have it.  You made me do it!

You know, that's a really nice description of Leliana dislike and I'd tend to agree.

Edit: Of course, as Knight said, the Orlesian thing doesn't help.

I don't think I like any of the Orlesians in either game.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:30 .