86 réponses à ce sujet

[Undertone]

Shepard might be exceptional but she/he is still human and any human falters. That would make the LI or other characters be useful beyond the traditional shooting.

[Inquisitor Recon]

My Shepard generally responds to confusion/emotional distress by emptying his weapon at whatever unlucky SOB is in front of him.

Seriously, I want that option.

[MisterDyslexo]

Sajuro wrote...

 He seems to be the type more to pull people out of their emotional traps, so I guess it would be good if Shepard's LI in the next game slapped some sense into him if he had a breakdown. Though that could lead to some unfortunate scenes.
Garrus: Get a hold of yourself! -slaps Shep-
Shep: X.X

Actually this seems viable. I mean, if Shepard isolates him/herself, nobody really there to pull them out of a slump. I'm not saying that Shep can't fight the reapers, but there might not be a happy ending to his/her story. And I could definitely see a lot of the LI's being able to pull Shepard out of such a slump, with the exception of Jacob. Probably would work best with Garrus or Jack.

[Terraneaux]

AdamNW wrote...

Has any WRPG main character had any character growth...ever? I wasn't aware this was expected.

I mean, you could count the revelation in KOTOR but it hasn't happened since.

Yes.  As much as jrpgs have choices that affect the story.

[Terraneaux]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Actually this seems viable. I mean, if Shepard isolates him/herself, nobody really there to pull them out of a slump. I'm not saying that Shep can't fight the reapers, but there might not be a happy ending to his/her story. And I could definitely see a lot of the LI's being able to pull Shepard out of such a slump, with the exception of Jacob. Probably would work best with Garrus or Jack.

A well-written scene like this could be the what makes Jacob a real character.

[mineralica]

This surprises me since ME1.

L2 held administrator Burnes demanding on reparation. Biotic Shepard - no emotion.

Batarian terrorist attempting to destroy colony. Colonist Shepard - no emotions.

Last representatives of race sacrificed themselves to save future civilisation. No emotions.

Citadel Lockdown - whoa, exception!

I was resurrected by terrorist organisation. Sole survivor Shepard - no emotions.

Sent very far by LI and it all was obviously planned by TIM - no emotions.

Earthborn Shepard towards Mouse - no emotions.

LI dies in arms on Suicide mission - no emotions.



Vell, even Shepard who is total badass should express some anger? Let alone femShep who always sounds too inspired, but that's all.

[Ahriman]

mineralica wrote...

I was resurrected by terrorist organisation. Sole survivor Shepard - no emotions.

Actually Shepard shows emotions there.

I agree that Shepard should be more emotional, but I don't want to see crying Shepard. Shepard has the strongest will in the team, that's why he/she is a capitan and  Garrus or someone else is not.

[Terraneaux]

Wizz wrote...

Actually Shepard shows emotions there.

I agree that Shepard should be more emotional, but I don't want to see crying Shepard. Shepard has the strongest will in the team, that's why he/she is a capitan and  Garrus or someone else is not.

Crying doesn't mean weak-willed, necessarily.  Tears of rage, though.  Or tears like Liara had after her two-year quest was over.  And Shep's has gone on longer than that.

[Zombie Chow]

I like this thread, everyone's responses, but especially the title, "A TEST of Mental Strength."

I respect both schools of thought on this ongoing debate on Shepard's feelings, Emotions vs. Recoil-Only. IMHO, I think it's appropriate for Shepard to have emotions, but to keep them inside, so I'm good either way.

The key lies in Shepard's life tests, which is about dealing with hate, doubt, guilt, etc. They are important to remind us that courage is not the absence of fear, but the overcoming of it.

Whether your are a Emotional or a Recoil-Only Shepard, it adds gravitas to your game. There are a few far between, like whether or not to save the Council at the end of ME1, Miranda and Jacob's interview at the start of ME2, etc.

I really, really like dgcatanisiri's point, none of these are Shepard's confidants. IMHO, LotSB cleverly revealed how Shepard keeps feelings inside with Liara's simple line "not what you tell your crew."

My thoughts on a solution - Shepard's own Captain's Log

Shepard could use some sort of confidant, to demonstrate feelings (for the Emotionals) or the utter lack of them (for Recoil-Only). Who can Shepard really talk to? Unfortunately, no one...the Commander's burden is too big to share.

One solution is actually a technique from Star Trek (since we already got all their actors in ME), a Captain's Log, to show Shepard's inner thoughts. It's a very useful exposition tool to reveal ideas not appropriate for dialogue.

It's not a "Dear Diary". It's a standard spaceship procedure, a record for future historians, or...should Shepard fail to stop the Reapers...a guide for whatever race comes after (like Vigil was). That's the level Shepard speaks personally to.

After every mission, Shepard may choose (if the player wishes) to record the day's events at the personal terminal. It could be done verbally with Shepard speaking to the computer. Or it can be typed, so that we see Shepard's words screen.

A typed log can actually demonstrate emotion without forcing them. Instead of a sobbing, stuttering voice, we can see (and hear from keystrokes) the doubt Shepard has from typing speed, pauses, and deletions. We actually see something like this in Tali's file in LotSB, when she's writing to her dead teammate's family.

@Dionkey - I'm just curious, do you play a ManShepard or a FemShepard please?

Sorry for the long text, here's a funny picture:

Modifié par Zombie Chow, 03 décembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Undertone]

Interesting idea but I would like Shepard to speak instead of write to that Captain Record. But not after every mission since it would be tedious.

[TheNexus]

For everyone that didn't pick Miranda as their LI, that was a true test of mental strength.

[Sajuro]

Terraneaux wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Actually this seems viable. I mean, if Shepard isolates him/herself, nobody really there to pull them out of a slump. I'm not saying that Shep can't fight the reapers, but there might not be a happy ending to his/her story. And I could definitely see a lot of the LI's being able to pull Shepard out of such a slump, with the exception of Jacob. Probably would work best with Garrus or Jack.

A well-written scene like this could be the what makes Jacob a real character.

I agree, though I don't think that many people would see it since hardly anyone romances Jacob.

[PauseforEffect]

To have Shepard doubt himself/herself in front of the crew would be very demoralizing, not while people need Shepard to be strong at this time. In private perhaps if you want to see some sort of reaction, but honestly, I think Shepard's attitude is fairly believable. A lot of people have a remarkable ability to adjust and function despite having a lot of horrible things happen in their life. They might have their moments of breaking down and crying, but I doubt people in the military are comfortable to show it publicly. One of my relatives during his service witnessed a man being burned alive, and yet he never gave any indication that he was haunted by what he saw. Sometimes loved ones will never share personal thoughts to spare others from what they know. If Shepard was to snap, break down or be affected adversely, it would imply he/she was unfit for duty like Major Kyle became. Personally, I'd ask someone who's seen combat as to how they deal with such stress to understand how someone like Shepard can seem so emotionless at times.

[rma2110]

TheNexus wrote...

For everyone that didn't pick Miranda as their LI, that was a true test of mental strength.

Haha! I hope they give the ladies a similar test in ME3. Miranda's feminine charm did nothing for me.

[Tamahome560]

TheNexus wrote...

on

For everyone that didn't pick Miranda as their LI, that was a true test of mental strength.

Sooo true ... in the end I didn't but I plan on another ME and ME2 playthrough just for her   On

On topic now : Yeah because we need Shepard , the last hope for galaxy's survival to have a mental breakdown or teenager depression syndrome .... Shepard's destiny/duty/quest is bigger then his emotions so he has to suppress  them.

He is in complete control, he has completely mastered control over himself. He is still human but he is the best of the best. He cannot just burst into tears or break down, he has to stay strong so he can inspire people and go against impossible odds. That's what makes his character special; His unbelievable mental strength and leadership skills/charisma. 

The lockdown scene in ME was great as it's shown him at a vulnerable moment but he still stayed strong. 
In LOTSB Liara asking how he feels gave us an opportunity to open up and find a little peace with a person that he truly trusted and for some people loved. Pursuing the romance further or talking about the LI shows us that Shep  has feelings and wants somewhere/someone to go back to after all this is done but he has to stay strong as he is a symbol/hero/ bloody icon. Like Superman or Batman he stands for something greater than himself and has to live up to his status. 

However the Capitan's log idea is awesome, Shepard leaving a message in case he fails and showing some doubts about the success of the mission and his plans for the future. Also some more emotional moments with LI's could be nice but no whining/depression/breakdown etc. 

[Undertone]

Nobody is talking about Shepard breaking down in front of the entire crew and start sobbing like a baby. Plus it should be optional, don't like it, don't do it.

[jojon2se]

If we have to see some vulnerability, I am more than content with the bit of surface scratching that we have during two Shepard_alone cutscenes, which I admit you can only see in a very limited number of situations and which are both linked to romantic subplot.

First being Shepard's short moment of silently staring at the photo of any "unbetrayed" LI from the first game, prior to venturing through the Omega relay. Nothing is written out plainly (which it shouldn't be at any rate; that would be cheap and tacky), to the degree it get ambigous enough, that you are free to fill in the blanks yourself, should you want to: is it just the missing, or the weight of the entire situation, or whatever? -You choose.

Second being at the end of LotSB, when any re-romanced Dr.T'Soni leaves and Shepard says "Come back soon, Liara", in a tiny voice, in the direction of the closing door. Slightly less subtle, but quite effective. (...at least with Hale's take on the script, not so sure about Meer's.)

[Koste]

There was another moment in the game when Shepard shows emotion when he catches another ambush interview from everyone's favorite journalist. If you choose to save the council he/she lists the names of all the human ships lost in the attack and finishes the comment with "and yes I remember the name s of them all." This gives a little insight into the decision he/she made in ME1.

[Nimrodell]

I never forgave BioWare for not properly finishing Atton Rand-Jedi Exile relationship especially because they actually made the ending of that story and never used it (such a shame). And I do hope they won't mess it up with Shepard in ME3 in the same manner... it's just market fault and of those that are dealing with it (EA and I have to mention Activision cause of WoW), always rushing things just to keep insatiable whiners happy while companies like BioWare are actually creating an art.  This kind of emotional thing I want for my Shepard (not patethic tears or Rudy Valentino scene), but I want something like this in ME3 (no one needs to die like Atton here but still I want that greek tragedy catharsis tone in voice acting and situation).

Modifié par Nimrodell, 03 décembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Nimrodell wrote...
I never forgave BioWare for not properly finishing Atton Rand-Jedi Exile relationship especially because they actually made the ending of that story and never used it (such a shame). And I do hope they won't mess it up with Shepard in ME3 in the same manner... it's just market fault and of those that are dealing with it (EA and I have to mention Activision cause of WoW), always rushing things just to keep insatiable whiners happy while companies like BioWare are actually creating an art.  This kind of emotional thing I want for my Shepard (not patethic tears or Rudy Valentino scene), but I want something like this in ME3 (no one needs to die like Atton here but still I want that greek tragedy catharsis tone in voice acting and situation).

Obsidian were the ones who made KOTOR II and they were rushed so many things had to be cut out of the game.

I would like to believe they wouldn't screw up the series by denying ME3 enough development time, consider how long it was between ME1 and ME2 after all.

[Sashimi_taco]

 One of my favorite parts of the series is when my female Shepard in mass effect one got frustrated next to the lockers and just sat on the floor. You could see that she felt overwhelmed and then for once she looked for emotional support from someone else, Kaidan. That scene really made me feel like the relationship between Shepard and Kaidan was real and genuine. Every other romance I have pursued in mass effect 2 has not had that same give and take of emotional support. It is usually Shepard just listening to the other's problems. This is why I choose the stick with Kaidan through M2 for my final save, because i feel like he was the only one who was there for Shepard. (secretly i pretend he was there for me because i am in love with a video game character). 

I really hope in M3 there will be moments where Shepard asks or at least is given some sort of comfort or emotional support. At the very least give the player the option to either respond with emotion or like a stone cold badass when confronted with someone reaching out.

[Zombie Chow]

jojon2se wrote...

Second being at the end of LotSB, when any re-romanced Dr.T'Soni leaves and Shepard says "Come back soon, Liara", in a tiny voice, in the direction of the closing door. Slightly less subtle, but quite effective. (...at least with Hale's take on the script, not so sure about Meer's.)

You mean un-romanced, right? Either way, I truly agree with you there.  This was the scene in my mind when I first read the thread.  Pic:



3z2nyq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p35IF78MljDLzQkgNJiiwxTORux6E5gndqO66hDuJ3Yl7STRU8FaW0_FDke0zM82kzdBou5KHpxOwq2eB939XarQVlZaxMWIs/MassEffect2%202010-11-22%2015-21-05-05.jpg

The thing I remember about this was, Shepard started speaking only when Liara was out of earshot.  I thought it really interesting how Shepard, the great speech-giver, the therapist to Jack, and confidant to all, dropped one of her most charged lines when NO ONE was around to hear it.  That lead me to the Captain's Log idea.

I also like the mention above of the Citadel reporter.  Yeah, all the responses were a little test, but I think the Saved Council + Paragon option was the most potent.  The way she said it, those deaths were always on her mind.

Modifié par Zombie Chow, 04 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

I guess the reason why BW has shep being such a brick for the main story is because they want the player to imbue the emotions for him its like giving your toaster feelings it doesn’t have its there and you can say, “ My toaster feels sad today.” or “ You look so sad toaster.” so then it feels sad just by you saying it….but yeah I wish shep could explore more emotions. I suppose if they wanted to do emotions in a specific scene they could open the wheel up to 5 choices the right side would be what we’d expect para, neutral, ren the right side would be for more extremes pound fist together, scream, break something you get the idea. At least having 1 lockereques scene would be nice for the main story of 3. I’m glad they tried for SB for more emotion. I was really happy Liara actually asked for honest answers and you could give some. I felt they did a more close job in SB for msheps emotions then they’ve done throughout 2.



Alan Wake does pretty well vocally with showing emotion if he’s frustrated he’ll sound very irritated, he jokes better then mshep, and he can show fear in his voice the way the company did the animations…not so well as BWs doing them but I like how vocally I can tell even if I walked away from the screen I know something is happening that either does or does not require my attention based off the voice talent.

[morley37]

ReconTeam wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...
I never forgave BioWare for not properly finishing Atton Rand-Jedi Exile relationship especially because they actually made the ending of that story and never used it (such a shame). And I do hope they won't mess it up with Shepard in ME3 in the same manner... it's just market fault and of those that are dealing with it (EA and I have to mention Activision cause of WoW), always rushing things just to keep insatiable whiners happy while companies like BioWare are actually creating an art.  This kind of emotional thing I want for my Shepard (not patethic tears or Rudy Valentino scene), but I want something like this in ME3 (no one needs to die like Atton here but still I want that greek tragedy catharsis tone in voice acting and situation).

Obsidian were the ones who made KOTOR II and they were rushed so many things had to be cut out of the game.

I would like to believe they wouldn't screw up the series by denying ME3 enough development time, consider how long it was between ME1 and ME2 after all.

KOTOR2 was a legendary game that was rushed and chopped into merely a very good game. It had everything that made KOTOR great and added in really great squad interaction, which was the only big hole in KOTOR. Then they cut the game in half. Win some, lose some, I guess.

Anyway, on topic, played LotSB with a femshep that had romanced liara. I thought the dialogue throughout between the two was pitch-perfect. They bickered like an old married couple (especially during the chase in the taxi) and the dialogue did a really good job of humanizing Shep. I thought it was all terrifically written, and it's the blueprint for how to write shep in ME3.

While shep does need to remain stoic in front of the crew for good solid operational reasons, the whole point of romance options is to humanize shep. (Well, beside the hot hot alien sideboob action) This is an opportunity that is sorely missed in vanilla ME2. A romance is a personal, out-of-uniform (so to speak) relationship where we *should* see shep in a different, human, light. I am choosing to be optimistic when I say that I think they realized at some point shep needed humanizing and that's why we got much, much better dialog in LotSB, which should carry forward.

[Zombie Chow]

Tamahome560 wrote...

However the Capitan's log idea is awesome, Shepard leaving a message in case he fails and showing some doubts about the success of the mission and his plans for the future. Also some more emotional moments with LI's could be nice but no whining/depression/breakdown etc. 

Sorry I didn't reply to this part before on the Captain's Log, but IMHO being totally objective, what YOU mentioned is the part that really fascinates me now, "his plans for the future."

This is how I'm thinking about it now.  Maybe after every major mission (I agree that it might be too tedious if done after every minor event) Shepard speaks to this log, like how he reports to the Council in ME1 or the Illusive Man in ME2.  The difference is that he can include more of his personal thoughts and secrets.

It looks like a typical Captain's Log used by the Alliance...until his very last entry before the Final Mission.  He adds a line like, "I have included with this log all the data we have collected on the Reapers, as well as a translation software suite.  We hope you can understand this meesage to continue our fight...from 50,000 years ago."  Then it cuts to him bring the data disk to some sort of time capsule probe.

The twist is that Shepard's purpose for the log was not because of his Alliance training, but purely to leave information for the next "generation" 50,000 years from now should he fail.  Shepard himself received information about the Reapers from the Prothean beacon and Vigil from 50,000 years before, so it makes sense he's preparing this contingency, implying he knows full well he may fail to stop the Reapers this time.  It heightens the suspense for the last mission.

It's about "his plans for the future."  It's not just Humanity's future, or the current Council races, but for all life even hundreds of thousands of years from now.  For Paragons, it's like he knows the Reapers "are a threat to everyone, everywhere."  For Renegades, it's like "I died 50,000 years ago and I DEMAND you exact vengeance for me (because Rage is a hell of an anaesthetic)!"

This is the ultimate test of mental strength when speaking to this log.  When one's in stress, doubt, and fear, it's hard to think.  Shepard's having to deal with the death of his whole race while planning a long-term war that might last hundreds of thousands of years.

Anyway, this Captain's Log trope allows for a lot of potential to reveal Shepard's deepest thoughts and innermost emotions.  But it has a huge dependency...that both Shepard's voice actors can pull it off.  I'm pretty confident Jennifer Hale can do it perfectly in a Paragon way, but beyond that, I dunno.