260 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

(husband posting)

Ok I've been thinking on this for a bit, and think it would make a fun thread.   And for those that don't know the term please see
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit


How do you think she pulled it off?   Especially if you think the Ser Cauthrien arrest attempt at Arl Howes estate was part of it (which there seems a reasonable ammount of circumstantial evidence that would lead one to that conclusion).   Oh and why do you think she did it?   Was it just to "play both sides against the middle?"   Was it a pre-emptive strike against Allistair's candidacy? Was she paranoid that the warden or Eamon might turn on her and wanted Johhny law their just in case? etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Reika]

I'm pretty sure part of it was not just a pre-emptive strike against Alistair, but the Warden also. When you "rescue" Anora, you haven't had a chance to talk with her yet. So she's hoping to eliminate her rival if possible, if not hopes to at least neutralize the Warden, considering the reputation the Warden would've gained at that point. Doubly so if the Warden is from the HNO, because the HNO would actually have as good a chance against her as Alistair.



Not quite sure if it was a true Xanatos Gambit or not, but I know the whole deal with her essentially double crossing them has made my Wardens not support her every time.

[bleetman]

Shes playing both sides, yes. If she speaks against you at the Landsmeet (because you either never spoke to her or refused to support her), picking the 'Loghain was going to have you killed' option causes her to explain that, in reality, that was never going to happen. She truely never feared for her safety.

She wants to keep her throne, and the support of her father was essentially guaranteed. She allies with the warden to gauge whether he/she could be convinced to support her. It's not that much of a xanatos gambit situation though I figure, unless I'm misunderstanding the term. I'm sure she intended it to be, but her plan can backfire on her if she speaks out against the warden, causing her to lose everything.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 décembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Axekix]

Reika wrote...

Not quite sure if it was a true Xanatos Gambit or not, but I know the whole deal with her essentially double crossing them has made my Wardens not support her every time.

The fact that she keeps her allegiances so fluid is actually part of what made me like her character actually.  IMO the game as a whole would be a whole lot more interesting (and realistic) if more people were looking out for themselves first.

As for the OP, I think she uses the "kidnapping" to try and eliminate Howe/Cauthrien and the Warden/Alistair.  If the Warden succeeds, she is in position to either support the Warden's campaign against her father OR back her father as his right hand, in place of Howe and Cauthrien. 

If the Warden/Alistair are captured or killed, then she has eliminated one of her biggest obstacles to the throne, and may be able to garner support from Eamon and his allies in their place in order to challenge her father directly.  If they all kill each other, she's in position to go either way.  Regardless of the outcome she always has options to move forward with her goals.

As for how she set it all up... that I really don't know.  Is there some dialogue with Loghain about it if you recruit him (I've only done it for the achievement)?

[Maria13]

I think she's testing the warden's strength, if the warden can release her and defeat Ser Cauthrin/or get out of Fort Drakon in one piece then they are obviously stronger than daddy and Howe and so they are who she will attempt to go with.

It also serves to get the undesirable, treacherous, evil maverick that is Howe out of the way. As an ally previously he was an asset but now with his sadism and his overreaching he has become a liability and needs to be removed...

Modifié par Maria13, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And in turn, my canon Warden decided to test her loyalty and fitness by demanding she speak up at Howe's estate, despite her previous demand I keep silent about her presence to Cauthrien. Risking life and limb for soem potential politican/leader. And she failed.



Again, she was tested in the convo at eamon's estate, to see where her loyalty was: her father or the Warden. Failed again. Needless to say, she didn't win the prize at Landsmeet, but ended up in charge after the game because poor Alistair wouldn't take up sexytime with Morrigan. Sigh.



Anora does test and manipulate the Warden. It's part of what makes her a fit choice for leadership, moreso than Alistair. because that's what politics is: a very dirty game played successfully by people with little to no scruples. And sadly, given the nature of people and society, it is that type who is better equipped to deal with the big bad world.



But, in the case of the Warden, two can play that game, Anora's mistake in that case is underestimating the strength, drive, resourcefulness, and motives of the Warden.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Anora had any great plan, to me it looks like she is simply desperately grasping at what straws she can find, to try to hold onto power. She makes emotional and sometimes bad decisions and ultimately she is left dependant on the whims of the warden.

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

I think she's testing the warden's strength, if the warden can release her and defeat Ser Cauthrin/or get out of Fort Drakon in one piece then they are obviously stronger than daddy and Howe and so they are who she will attempt to go with.

It also serves to get the undesirable, treacherous, evil maverick that is Howe out of the way. As an ally previously he was an asset but now with his sadism and his overreaching he has become a liability and needs to be removed...

Mr. Addai

I like that theory!

Because a lot of the reading into the Ser Cauthrien attack doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.   That is really something that could have blown up in her face very easily...   If she was not protected by "plot armor" the Warden could have attacked her right then and there.     And really if she was a semi-realistic character she would have known that but apparently she is also pretty "genre savvy" as well.


(And for those of you who don't know those terms you can look them up on the link provided in the opening post)


And then there is moving through the streets of Denerim.    That is not a safe place!    Did she really brave that alone or have  a secret detachement of queens guards escort her just before she got to Eamons.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Doubly so if the Warden is from the HNO, because the HNO would actually have as good a chance against her as Alistair.

I very much doubt this. There are two factions of approximately equal strength. Loghain's faction supports Anora for queen even if she feels more like a puppet and Eamon's faction supports Alistair for king. A HNF could be a complication as arranging to be Alistair's consort could make him appear more legitimate just like a HNM could help her but no matter how noble a Cousland is or how much they're convinced that everyone loves their magical bloodline, they just lack the political support to be a serious contender for the throne as anything but a consort.

[BHRamsay]

To make a decent Xanatos Gambit you have to be a Magnificent Bastard

http://tvtropes.org/...nificentBastard

The fidgeting stressed out soul you see confronting her father after the third treaty mission is done would be the total opposite of that.

Modifié par BHRamsay, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Doubly so if the Warden is from the HNO, because the HNO would actually have as good a chance against her as Alistair.

  A HNF could be a complication as arranging to be Alistair's consort could make him appear more legitimate just like a HNM could help her but no matter how noble a Cousland is or how much they're convinced that everyone loves their magical bloodline, they just lack the political support to be a serious contender for the throne as anything but a consort.

(Husband)


My thoughts are in a AU (That uses almost all the game dynamics as the game) it would have been possible for the Cousland to be monarch but two conditions would have to have been met.


1) The PC is not recruited for the Wardens (and not forced to abide by the restrictions the game puts on you).


2) The PC goes on a questing line along the lines that you already do in game but instead of trying to enforce treaties you are trading favors for the NPCs you save asking them to support you in the landsmeet, loan you men for yourarmy etc.


Doing all this would essentially turn the PC into a new Calenhad.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Corker]

If it were a Xanatos Gambit, shouldn't she gain some advantage no matter what happens? Like, even if Alistair and f!Cousland take the throne, Anora has sufficient influence at the Landsmeet (which she'd have made sure of ahead of time, like Bhelen does) to at least guarantee that she she's made teyrna of Gwaren rather than get imprisoned in a tower. Bonus points if she was negotiating with Orzammar to try and find a way to re-open the dwarven undercity for trade purposes, so that Gwaren becomes a huge new center for the lyrium and ores trades.

[Addai]

BHRamsay wrote...

To make a decent Xanatos Gambit you have to be a Magnificent Bastard

http://tvtropes.org/...nificentBastard

The fidgeting stressed out soul you see confronting her father after the third treaty mission is done would be the total opposite of that.

Is she just a chessmaster then who tries her hand at Batman gambits?


If it were a Xanatos Gambit, shouldn't she gain some advantage no matter
what happens? Like, even if Alistair and f!Cousland take the throne,
Anora has sufficient influence at the Landsmeet (which she'd have made
sure of ahead of time, like Bhelen does) to at least guarantee that she
she's made teyrna of Gwaren rather than get imprisoned in a tower.
Bonus points if she was negotiating with Orzammar to try and find a way
to re-open the dwarven undercity for trade purposes, so that Gwaren
becomes a huge new center for the lyrium and ores trades.


Well I was trying to decide what to call it sort of is in between a batman and xantos gambit.    Probably more of a batman one. 

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Filling in for KoP here:



There is only ONE person who can ever do a Xanatos gambit.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thank you Giggles.

[Zjarcal]

Because I know squat about Xanatos or this gambit, is the Xanatos Gambit related to Xanatos?

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

Because I know squat about Xanatos or this gambit, is the Xanatos Gambit related to Xanatos?

David Xanatos is one of the single most awesome charachters ever created.

Read the Tvtropes entry and watch this:
David Xanatos is a badass

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thank you Giggles.

I have been watching Gargoyles again.
Xanatos is just too awesome not to love. 

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Because I know squat about Xanatos or this gambit, is the Xanatos Gambit related to Xanatos?

David Xanatos is one of the single most awesome charachters ever created.

Read the Tvtropes entry and watch this:
David Xanatos is a badass

I know better than to click on a TVtropes link. Once you're in there's no escaping.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 décembre 2010 - 05:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Well, the link is actually to Youtube.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, the link is actually to Youtube.

I meant the first link that Giggles mentioned, the one in the OP.

[Corker]

A Xanatos Gambit is a win-win plan.  It's structured with the knowledge that one's enemies will try to stop one's plan, and to use their actions to further some other goal.

If Loghain had wanted the Sacred Ashes for some Nefarious Purpose (just pretend here for the sake of an example), and if the Warden were a known goody-goody, poisoning Eamon would be a Xanatos Gambit.  Either the heroic Warden rushes to the rescue, finds the ashes and rescues Brother Genetivi - thus revealing the location of the Ashes - or the Warden doesn't (or tries and fails), Eamon dies, and Loghain is unchallenged as regent.  Either outcome is acceptable.

If the Warden were an unknown quantity, or a known lunatic murderer as likely to join a dragon cult as save Eamon, then this would not be a Xanatos Gambit, because there's a good chance the Warden won't rescue Genetivi.

A Batman Gambit (she says after she looks that one up) is sort of half of a Xanatos Gambit - it relies on people behaving in predictable, well known ways and exploiting that to get them to do what you want.  If people act differently than expected, the gambit will fail with no secret win condition for the plotter.

If Anora is running any sort of gambit at all, I'd have to agree that it's a Batman Gambit.  She cannot appear to lose but secretly win, so it's not a Xanatos Gambit.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Because I know squat about Xanatos or this gambit, is the Xanatos Gambit related to Xanatos?

Hence why I have the "XANATOS" link in my sig

David Xanatos was my role model growing up.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hah my role model was actually this guy:





The Next generation was one of the few shows I could actually watch growing up since I refused to watch shows for kids.

[TotoroTori]

*is just laughing* I saw this and the first thing I thought was



"Knight of the Phoenix for the throne" because every time I see Xantos now KoP pops in my head!