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[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

Not necesarily bad writing.   I actually see it as Ser Cauthrien like many players is "taking the path of least resistance" and would like to get a win without actually having to shed blood.   She also offers it as a matter of old fashioned, chivalry.    My characters don't really take her up n the offer because at that time Loghain and her do not look very honorable and trustworthy.   But that is I think part of the motivation besides looking good for the landsmeet.

Huh, that's true. I'll pretend that my character appealed to her sense of chivalry in my illusionary negotiations.
Thanks!

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

@ Ian Polaris

Cauthrien for sure is more loyal to Loghain then Anora.And if Loghain think that the Warden is too dangerous to be kept alive,she would simply kill the warden no matter what Anora want.

Sure she is, but what you don't know is if Loghain bothered specifically to tell Ser Cauthrien this.  What I am positing (and I think it's a reasonable possibility here) is that Anora sets this up acting in the name of her father and her father never bothers to contradict it.  It's reasonable both that Ser Cauthrien (being an easy dupe) would take Anora at her word that she's acting in her father's name (the two are close), and it's also reasonable to think that Loghain is too busy to twig onto this especially prior to a crucially important Landsmeet and especially if the operation only took a day or two.  This partially answers Addai's point as well.  I can easily see Anora arranging a stakeout (and yet this is what it would have to be) for about a day or so.  Longer would be problematic.

Also,until you proove your "worth",the Crows thought that Loghain was the right man to stop the Blight
(Its not in the Crows interest that the Archdemon wins.

Wrong.  Ignatio makes it perfectly plain that the crows regard any action against the wardens as stupid and rife with risk and goes on that HE would never had been so stupid as to take the contract to start with.  It turns out, however, that the crows have factions too, and Howe found one (and apparently only one) Crow Pater that was willing to do the job...and that Pater was Talisen who simply likes killing near as I can tell (and is otherwise a disliked iconoclast). 

Warden: Then why try to kill me.
Ignacio: We thought that Loghain was the right man for the job.Until we meet you)
How Loghain could be right man for the job when it is a Historical fact that only Wardens could stop an Archdemon?

That's a very selective snip of converstation.  Ignacio makes it very clear that it was a stupid contract for the crows to take and that HE never would have done it.  He's quite emphatic about it.  As for the "job", that means ruling Ferelden.  We find out later in the game that the rest of the nations of Thedas have largely written Ferelden off and were preparing to fight the blight after Ferelden fell.

Which show
that it isnt indeed a fact that Grey Wardens are needed at all.

Wrong.  It's history and common knowledge that Grey Wardens are needed to stop the blight and referenced in the game multiple times.  What's not common knowledge is why.  The snippet (I just *love* incomplete snips) was referring to the crow's involvement in a civil war (which they do all the time both in Anitiva and out).

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, I was going to duck out, but I wanted to point out that you are taking some points of contention and relaying them as fact.

Taliesen -- there is a lot of disagreement as to whether he's a crow master or just another rank-and-file crow. Zevran is the one who took that contract on the Warden -- Taliesen volunteered to go get Zevran back. Zevran occasionally talks about crow masters, but he never refers to Taliesen as a master (and in fact, the term "master" seems to change enough in various dialogs). Just an aside -- in at least two dialogs with Zevran, he may refer to Taliesen either deferring to him or allowing Taliesen to do something which would imply that Taliesen is NOT in fact Zevran's master.

Now, I don't want to rehash both arguments -- I've heard them all and have been over all the dialogs extensively. I just want to point out to you that you are saying something is a fact in the game which in fact is not and is very much a point of contention.

There's a lot more to the Taliesen story in the game which many people don't see -- but it IS there.

Oh, one more thing. Ignacio is referred to in his character description as a master crow. Taliesen is not.

It's a small point, so I'll duck out again

Edit; here are the character descriptions:

Taliesen: An Antivan Crow that knows Zevran from his assassin days.
Ignacio: He's an accomplished assassin that's been placed in management. He's very cautious now because his superiors don't tolerate mistakes. When he's in his cover identity there should be no hint he's anything more than he claims - he's a pleasant, foreign trader with an accent. But when he summons the player, he's fully expecting to be cut down or betrayed. He will speak in innuendos. If he were smooth and collected, that segment could sound like a mafioso type - instead, he's cautious and cagey. Up until the end, it would be fine if the player was uncertain whether he is being set up. At the end of the quest, he is being quite sincere - he wants to work with the player as they really are on the same side.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...

I do find Anora's NPC to be remarkable, this is despite my own prejudices leading me to dislike her.  But I can't help respecting her ability to achieve, from a position of great weakness, great things.  My first Warden reluctantly and naively put her on the throne.  My last Warden was quite happy with her taking the throne, although she was also happy with executing Alistair and, in general, just 'getting things done'. 

Not the best possible ruler, but yes I do find her impressive. Even if it's true that she staged the whole thing.

What she needs is some military experience (which I think she is trying to get, from her presence in the battle of Denerim), and she could be the best ruler a country like Ferelden can hope for.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

I do find Anora's NPC to be remarkable, this is despite my own prejudices leading me to dislike her.  But I can't help respecting her ability to achieve, from a position of great weakness, great things.  My first Warden reluctantly and naively put her on the throne.  My last Warden was quite happy with her taking the throne, although she was also happy with executing Alistair and, in general, just 'getting things done'. 

In this I completely agree.  I also (obviously) dislike Anora, but I do respect her savvy.  Of course, as my father would have put it, I also think she's at least as crooked as a dog's hind leg.  Of course I feel the same way about Bhelen and I have no issue putting him on the throne.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I do find Anora's NPC to be remarkable, this is despite my own prejudices leading me to dislike her.  But I can't help respecting her ability to achieve, from a position of great weakness, great things.  My first Warden reluctantly and naively put her on the throne.  My last Warden was quite happy with her taking the throne, although she was also happy with executing Alistair and, in general, just 'getting things done'. 

Not the best possible ruler, but yes I do find her impressive. Even if it's true that she staged the whole thing.

What she needs is some military experience (which I think she is trying to get, from her presence in the battle of Denerim), and she could be the best ruler a country like Ferelden can hope for.

Going through the epilogs (which is sorta cheating I know), I don't think that Anora is a particularly good ruler.  An unhardened Alister that is single is the worst IMO, but a single Anora is nearly as bad.  The best outcome for Ferelden (given that we know there will be no heirs no matter what) seems to be a hardened Alister-Anora co-rulership.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

If the epilogues are anything to go by, the potentially best outcome is Cousland / Anora, which can lead to a golden age, as the epilogue says.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the epilogues are anything to go by, the potentially best outcome is Cousland / Anora, which can lead to a golden age, as the epilogue says.

If the two can stop struggling for power is the caveat there.  Unfortunately, I view the Cousland/Anora match almost as bad as the single-Anora one simply because I can't see any Cousland that was ambitious enough to set up the Landsmeet to being King/.Prince-Consort being one to simply lie back and let Anora run things either.  So I see a constant low grade civil war as an aftermath (this is hinted at in DAA if you take this path when Loghain says that Anora tends to get what she wants...including getting you out of the Palace).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the epilogues are anything to go by, the potentially best outcome is Cousland / Anora, which can lead to a golden age, as the epilogue says.

If the two can stop struggling for power is the caveat there.  Unfortunately, I view the Cousland/Anora match almost as bad as the single-Anora one simply because I can't see any Cousland that was ambitious enough to set up the Landsmeet to being King/.Prince-Consort being one to simply lie back and let Anora run things either.  So I see a constant low grade civil war as an aftermath (this is hinted at in DAA if you take this path when Loghain says that Anora tends to get what she wants...including getting you out of the Palace).

-Polaris

Awakening also ends up hinting that Anora is starting to like the Cousland and can potentially cooperate.

But that's another discussion, which I won't get into.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

Is Anora up to the task of reforming Ferelden's system of governance?  I know I think Ferelden needs it.  What I think also strikes me as noteworthy is Ferelden's relationship with its technology.  By which I mean crafting and Magic and such.  OK, I'm not an Historicist but I think that Ferelden's system would have to fight against social movements just like any other. 

I suppose that's a design decision and it is of course perfectly reasonable to limit the franchise's historical context to fixed period.  I'd love to see some of the possibilities though.

I don't think any of the choices are.  In Anora's case I don't think she has enough legitamacy to pull it off.  The first step towards a more republican/democratic government was ironically enough the "autocracy" or the seizure of power from the noble classes into the crown itself (see King Louis XIV of France as a key example), and I don't think any of the candidates can pull off a Louis XIV.  In Anora's case, I think she'll have a surly Landsmeet at best.

We already know that there will be no heir no matter what (and an heir would help Anora's position out greatly fwiw), and it seems likely another civil war in Ferelden is coming soon, and I suspect it's going to be a bad one.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

That process in France took time and it was initiated by people like Richelieu and Mazarin, not Louis XIV (who rather expanded on the process, quite brilliantly).

So Anora can always start the first steps. Such a process will take many decades (if not a century), as it did in France.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ian: I see Hardened Alistair/Anora having more strife then Cousland/Anora. Since Alistair really really hates Loghain and won't ever forgive him nor would he forgive Anora for loving her father.

Of course both her and Bhelen are snakes, they are after all politicians through and through. Not necesarily the most likeable people but still respectable in my eyes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...

Anora's skill set is definitely confined to politics as KoP suggests, I'd ad general social skills to that too. I'm not certain if it's necessarily true that Anora requires Military experience to be a successful and positive leader for Ferelden -- Heck I could see her negotiating the merger of Orlais and Ferelden. After all, Anora can always delegate those responsibilities successfully if she has both good judgement and an availability of delegates. I think Anora has the judgement to do this.

If she does that, she's dead.

But I really doubt she would do it.

[IanPolaris]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ian: I see Hardened Alistair/Anora having more strife then Cousland/Anora. Since Alistair really really hates Loghain and won't ever forgive him nor would he forgive Anora for loving her father.

Of course both her and Bhelen are snakes, they are after all politicians through and through. Not necesarily the most likeable people but still respectable in my eyes.

Not necessarily.  One of the better endings I have found is if Loghain takes one for the team with the Archedemon but Anora and Alistair take the throne.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That process in France took time and it was initiated by people like Richelieu and Mazarin, not Louis XIV (who rather expanded on the process, quite brilliantly).

So Anora can always start the first steps. Such a process will take many decades (if not a century), as it did in France.

You're right.  I didn't want to bog the thread down with French History details.  However, Anora really isn't a Richelieu or Mazarin either (although she clearly aspires to be like them) and unlike her, they both had uncontested support by a king with unquestioned legitamacy (King Louis XIII...who was a bit of a fool and let them run the state).

The Landsmeet is clearly stronger than the Estate of Nobles in France, and they've just established that they have the unquestioned right to seat (and by implication unseat) a noble of their choosing.  In all honesty, Fereldan reminds me most of (just) pre-Interregnum England.  I don't think any combination that is heirless has the strength to really start to reform the govt.  I think it's going to take a civil war that we all can see brewing in about 30 years or so and it will be a bad one.  Anora+(hardened) Alistair and/or Anora+Cousland with an heir might have had a shot, but we know that will never happen.

-Polaris

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I do find Anora's NPC to be remarkable, this is despite my own prejudices leading me to dislike her.  But I can't help respecting her ability to achieve, from a position of great weakness, great things.  My first Warden reluctantly and naively put her on the throne.  My last Warden was quite happy with her taking the throne, although she was also happy with executing Alistair and, in general, just 'getting things done'. 

Not the best possible ruler, but yes I do find her impressive. Even if it's true that she staged the whole thing.

What she needs is some military experience (which I think she is trying to get, from her presence in the battle of Denerim), and she could be the best ruler a country like Ferelden can hope for.

(husband)

I don't know about that....   As far as game
characterization goes, I don't see Anora ever being willing to put
herself in danger.   I only see herself as grabbing military experience
if she is worried about a double cross from her replacement general or
prince cousland.    If she feels safe and confident of the new generals
or consorts loyalties
I see her as having very little interest in
getting her hands dirty with such things.    So yes I think Xanderphein
on his novel/s has it right on that.

furthermore, even if she
would get involved in the miitary I see her trying to operate things as
far from the battlefield as she can get away with.    I don't think she
has it in her to lead by example and put herself out there.


PS
- her appearance at Dennerim I see purely as more a PR stunt and not
wanting to get sidelined by the Warden as anything..   I suspect she is
especially afraid of people complaining and saying things, "If we had a
king... he would have fought with us" kinds of negative comparisons.  
So she basically tries to counteract that by sticking her neck out as
far as her conservative comfort zone will allow her.    Which isn't
really that far, by guy standards...

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Addai husband.
Yes of course, I don't expect Anora to be on the front lines. However, I would think that her experience with Loghain would have taught her that relying on one person almost entirely for the military can be a risky thing to do. So I would think that she would try to cultivate some loyalty in the army, without necessarily getting too involved.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the epilogues are anything to go by, the potentially best outcome is Cousland / Anora, which can lead to a golden age, as the epilogue says.

If the two can stop struggling for power is the caveat there.  Unfortunately, I view the Cousland/Anora match almost as bad as the single-Anora one simply because I can't see any Cousland that was ambitious enough to set up the Landsmeet to being King/.Prince-Consort being one to simply lie back and let Anora run things either.  So I see a constant low grade civil war as an aftermath (this is hinted at in DAA if you take this path when Loghain says that Anora tends to get what she wants...including getting you out of the Palace).

-Polaris

(husband)

Well my one did.  

My character like myself had a bit of a slacker attitude he missed the good life of being a noble.   He saw the prince consort as a ticket out of all the regulation of the Wardens.    He also had a bit of a Taoist attitude as far as accepting people for who they are etc.    And while he realized he was very interested in politics he realized his level of interest and experience he was a diletante compared to her.   

And of course he also thought she was a babe and was willing to look past some of her personality traits.    And well Anora like almost every NPC in the game, does seem to show the capacity of reciprocity.   So in my estimation if you come across as a political asset and reasonably loyal she will treat you fairly well.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:50 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai husband.
Yes of course, I don't expect Anora to be on the front lines. However, I would think that her experience with Loghain would have taught her that relying on one person almost entirely for the military can be a risky thing to do. So I would think that she would try to cultivate some loyalty in the army, without necessarily getting too involved.

(husband)

It's risky but from a manpower perspective their might not be a lot of choice.  As in all the other would be generals may be more mediocre 2nd string officers compared to general patton warden.

    I would compare this to US poliitcs.   I don't like Obama and am on the other side of the fence polically speaking.   But currently, it looks dubious about having a good solid candidate with enough gravitas to run against him.    If such a thing could hold true for a large country like the US, then how much more would it be true for a small medieval country of Ferelden whose populatin is a drop in the bucket of the US?

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


Sure she is, but what you don't know is if Loghain bothered specifically to tell Ser Cauthrien this.

That chance is 100 percent regarding that Cauthrien also knows and have excuses for things like the slavery in the alienage ore the torturing of the nobles.She would also know about the assassination attemps for sure.If Loghain wanted the Warden to be dead at that time,Cauthrien would just kill them at that eastate. And she wouldnt care for Anoras plans.

That's a very selective snip of converstation.

Am no.The warden ask after Icnacio said that it isnt in the interest of the crows that the archdemon wins after all why they tried to kill them:
"A time we thought that Loghain was the right man for the job.But after we meet you..."
In that order. Its not selective.
At least it proves that isnt common knowledge that Grey Wardens are needed to defeat the Darkspawn.

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:04 .