260 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given that, I wish I could recommend that Alister simply execute her.

-Polaris

Hey! We finally agree on something!

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

CalJones wrote...

IanPolaris - there is no hard evidence that Anora was behind Cauthrien's arrival.

If she arranged it,why she is the first one to inform Eamon about it?(and the location where the warden actually is-> Fort Drakon)
Doesnt make much sense.

1.  That doesn't in any way mitigate the fact that she had to have arranged it.  There is no other possibility unless you explicitly plead metagame/plothole (which IMHO invalidates the argument).

2.  I can think of many entirely plausible reasons (and plausible is all I need given that we know from timing and information alone that she had to have done it).  I will break this down depending on what circumstances you see her again:

Case A:  You killed Ser Cauthrien.  Given that even the designers thought this was an unwinnable fight, Queen Anora as soon as she hears this probably browned her frilly undergarments in fright.  Anora knows what she did to you and at this point she needs to pray to the Maker that you don't figure it out.  In this case giving you that information and playing (very) nice is simply self survival on her part since if you can beat those kinds of odds, her father's position (and thus her own political future) look pretty bleak if she doesn't.  Even so, she still can't avoid a jab at you saying Ser Cauthrien's death was a waste (which in my mind confirms that she set it up in the first place not that there was any doubt)  [HELLO!  She tried (as far as I knew) to KILL ME!]

Case B:  You are captured. 

Case B1:  Alistair was not captured with you.  In that case, Anora still fears that Eamon will be able to use him to end her father's regency and her rule.  If she wants to stay on the throne (and she most certainly does), then she'd better have an ally in Eamon's camp to make it happen (because Alistair certainly won't do it....and we know she has zero respect for Alistair anyway) and that some one has to be able to stand up to Arl Eamon and make it stick.  There is only one person:  The acting Warden Commander of Fereldan (you).  In that case, Anora in order to have a lifeline in both camps (which she desperately wants and frankly needs) has to arrange for your rescue.

Case B2:  You and Alistair are both captured.  This is trickier because that that point Loghain's victory would seem to be a slam dunk.  However, there is still a very plausible reason for Anora to go to Eamon even in this case:

a.  She unlike her father believes the blight is real and Grey Wardens are needed.  She wants the throne so bad she can taste it, but a throne over a blighted land destroyed by darkspawn (unsprisingly) doesn't appeal to her.  If Arl Eamon's rescue mission suceeds, she can point to her involvement to the Grey Wardens and claim she was with them all along.  If not, Arl Eamon is guilty of an attempted attack on the Regent's Castle and guilty of treason (and thus excecuted).  Win, win.  That leads to the second reason.

b.  She wants to be SURE that she keeps the throne no matter who wins.  Even with Alistair and you both captured, until you are executed (and Anora...correctly IMHO...knows that you haven't been yet), there is still a tiny chance that Eamon could still depose her.  She needs to make sure that Eamon is completely discredited before the landsmeet even starts.  What better way than to goad him into an unproved and illegal attack on Ft Drakon to free a convincted criminal(s).

Again, I am not saying these are her reasons, but they could be and are plausible enough, and that's all I need.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Also if the Warden has Morrigan's ring (which I strongly suspect is the canon Warden because it is the first thing the toolset checks) then Anora does NOT tell Arl Eamon your location.  Morrigan does.  Morrigan's butter may be rancid, but if you have her ring, it's most definately buttered on your side.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 décembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Sabariel]

Perhaps Loghain planned to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder from the start and 'you' just made it more plausible by actually killing him

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Perhaps Loghain planned to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder from the start and 'you' just made it more plausible by actually killing him

Loghain wouldn't know you were there (at least not for the timing Ser Cauthrien demonstrates) unless Anora told him (since she and her maid are the only ones outside of your immediate party...alive anyway....that know you actually killed Arl Howe when she shows up)...in which case we are back to Anora betraying you (somthing that Loghain btw implicitly confirms later on if you recruit him when he says that Anora was never in danger....and also confirmed by Arl Howe himself when he tells you...and he has no reason to lie since he's gloating over your imminant death...or so he believes...that Anora was playing games with you.

It just doesn't work.  This hypothesis was considered too but rejected because it doesn't fit the facts as the game presents them. 

-Polaris

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Perhaps Loghain planned to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder from the start and 'you' just made it more plausible by actually killing him

Loghain wouldn't know you were there (at least not for the timing Ser Cauthrien demonstrates) unless Anora told him (since she and her maid are the only ones outside of your immediate party...alive anyway....that know you actually killed Arl Howe when she shows up)...in which case we are back to Anora betraying you (somthing that Loghain btw implicitly confirms later on if you recruit him when he says that Anora was never in danger....and also confirmed by Arl Howe himself when he tells you...and he has no reason to lie since he's gloating over your imminant death...or so he believes...that Anora was playing games with you.

It just doesn't work.  This hypothesis was considered too but rejected because it doesn't fit the facts as the game presents them. 

-Polaris

Actually, Polaris, if you have Loghain on "Friendly", he will not say that she was never in danger. Loghain's dialogue in the vanilla game is bugged, here is his "Friendly" reaction, which reveals something else:

www.youtube.com/watch

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Perhaps Loghain planned to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder from the start and 'you' just made it more plausible by actually killing him

Loghain wouldn't know you were there (at least not for the timing Ser Cauthrien demonstrates) unless Anora told him (since she and her maid are the only ones outside of your immediate party...alive anyway....that know you actually killed Arl Howe when she shows up)...in which case we are back to Anora betraying you (somthing that Loghain btw implicitly confirms later on if you recruit him when he says that Anora was never in danger....and also confirmed by Arl Howe himself when he tells you...and he has no reason to lie since he's gloating over your imminant death...or so he believes...that Anora was playing games with you.

It just doesn't work.  This hypothesis was considered too but rejected because it doesn't fit the facts as the game presents them. 

-Polaris

Actually, Polaris, if you have Loghain on "Friendly", he will not say that she was never in danger. Loghain's dialogue in the vanilla game is bugged, here is his "Friendly" reaction, which reveals something else:

www.youtube.com/watch

Actually I've seen this conversation, and it doesn't say what you think it does.  Just because Howe suggested it doesn't mean that Anora was in any danger (and in fact if you challenge her about saving if she betrays you at the Landsmeet Anora herself confirms that she was never in any real danger).

Perhaps in the long term, Howe might have been able to convince Loghain to kill his own daughter, but short term?  Not a chance as Loghain in your very own clip confirms and he confirms that Anora loved playing people. 
[If you want to suggest that Howe might have done it without Loghain's approval, that's a non-starter on the face of it.  Howe knows his bread is buttered on Loghain's side...for now anyway...and knows that killing Anora would be a bridge too far.  Howe is evil, but he's not stupid.]


In short, you're wrong.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

All Howe would have to do is blame Anora's death on the Wardens then he's off the hook.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

All Howe would have to do is blame Anora's death on the Wardens then he's off the hook.

The wardens have no reason to rescue Anora until Erlina goes to Eamon.  Howe has no way of knowing she will do that.

[Yes that means that Eamon was also full of BS when he talks you into the rescue mission.]

Howe and Loghain together might make it look like the Wardens killed Anora after the fact, but Howe would have to survive telling Loghain his daughter was dead in his custody.....and Howe is evil not stupid.

-Polaris

Edit: In any event it's totally irrelevant.  Having this be a plot of Howe doesn't work either.  In fact if anything it's additional evidence (not that I need any) that Anora betrayed you.  She has to secure her throne against you (the warden) and against Howe (who might want to kill her).  Two birds with one stone.  Easy as pie.

Fact is that Ser Cauthrien gives the game away with her timing and her specific charge AND the fact she cares only about the Warden (so she really doesn't want to take the queen who is visibly standing less than five feet away from the warden into protective custody...really?  That directly contradicts what Anora just claimed moments before....i.e. her own father might have her killed or at least captured and taken ot the Palace).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 décembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Perhaps Loghain planned to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder from the start and 'you' just made it more plausible by actually killing him

Loghain wouldn't know you were there (at least not for the timing Ser Cauthrien demonstrates) unless Anora told him (since she and her maid are the only ones outside of your immediate party...alive anyway....that know you actually killed Arl Howe when she shows up)...in which case we are back to Anora betraying you (somthing that Loghain btw implicitly confirms later on if you recruit him when he says that Anora was never in danger....and also confirmed by Arl Howe himself when he tells you...and he has no reason to lie since he's gloating over your imminant death...or so he believes...that Anora was playing games with you.

It just doesn't work.  This hypothesis was considered too but rejected because it doesn't fit the facts as the game presents them. 

-Polaris

Actually, Polaris, if you have Loghain on "Friendly", he will not say that she was never in danger. Loghain's dialogue in the vanilla game is bugged, here is his "Friendly" reaction, which reveals something else:

www.youtube.com/watch

Actually I've seen this conversation, and it doesn't say what you think it does.  Just because Howe suggested it doesn't mean that Anora was in any danger (and in fact if you challenge her about saving if she betrays you at the Landsmeet Anora herself confirms that she was never in any real danger).

Perhaps in the long term, Howe might have been able to convince Loghain to kill his own daughter, but short term?  Not a chance as Loghain in your very own clip confirms and he confirms that Anora loved playing people. 
[If you want to suggest that Howe might have done it without Loghain's approval, that's a non-starter on the face of it.  Howe knows his bread is buttered on Loghain's side...for now anyway...and knows that killing Anora would be a bridge too far.  Howe is evil, but he's not stupid.]


In short, you're wrong.

-Polaris

Could it be that you REALLY dislike Anora, Polaris? 

And I'll say it again: I am behind Anora when it comes to her "betraying" a Warden who openly tells her "BTW, no, I'm not going to support you. And yeah, I'm gonna kill your Dad too! ". One would make her a fool as a ruler and politician (Allowing herself to be deposed in favor of an untrained, inexperienced manchild) and the other would make her an abomination as a daughter. I would not support the Warden in this case either. Why should she, any politician worth her salt would have known that the best she could expect from Eamon/Alistair was exile/prison, the worst was execution. (As is implied by hardened Alistair)

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...
Could it be that you REALLY dislike Anora, Polaris? 

Considering that she deliberately stabs me in the back at Howe's estate, it's difficult for me to like her.  I tend to have a problem liking people that stab me in the back.  I guess I am funny and "narrow minded" that way. 

And I'll say it again: I am behind Anora when it comes to her "betraying" a Warden who openly tells her "BTW, no, I'm not going to support you. And yeah, I'm gonna kill your Dad too! ". One would make her a fool as a ruler and politician (Allowing herself to be deposed in favor of an untrained, inexperienced manchild) and the other would make her an abomination as a daughter. I would not support the Warden in this case either. Why should she, any politician worth her salt would have known that the best she could expect from Eamon/Alistair was exile/prison, the worst was execution. (As is implied by hardened Alistair)

Not that cut and dry.  Anora backstabs you in other cases too.

1.  If you posit (correctly!) that the entire mission in Howe's estate is a trap, then Anora with absolutely no strings attached promises her support in the Landsmeet.  No going back on that one.

2.  If you say that Logain must die, she still openly agrees to back you if you agree to back her for the Throne and even says "We have a deal".  This is true whether you get her to marry Alistair or not.  She quite blatently lies and betrays you on this, and hardened Alister is quite correct (when you arbitrate the Landsmeet), "She betrayed us once, can you trust her again.  She could have you exiled or killed the moment you put on the crown."

That is a very compelling argument against her.....and don't bother trying to deny it.  Anora does betray you at Arl Howe's estate.  It's the only possible way that Ser Cauthrian could be there within ten minutes of you entering the estate to arrest you for the murder of Howe and his men-at-arms....a fact the rest of his household doesn't even know yet.  Only Anora could have given her that information in time for her to be there.  That's not opinion.  That's simply logistic/time-keeping fact.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

It is a fact that any time you write "It is a fact that" the Internet automagically turns the statement into truth.



It is a fact that Queen Anora had a whole legion of duckspawn at her beak and call.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

It is a fact that any time you write "It is a fact that" the Internet automagically turns the statement into truth.

It is a fact that Queen Anora had a whole legion of duckspawn at her beak and call.

No mousetalker.  It's not a fact that Anora betrays you because I say so.  It's a fact because there is no other possibility.  We've been through this.  Unless you hold out for meta-game knowledge and/or deliberate plotholes (and there is no evidence of this), then the only explaination for Ser Cauthrian showing up on Howe's doorstep with the specific charge of murdering Arl Howe within 10 minutes after you entered his estate with NONE of Howe's men (that still live) twigging to your presence is in fact that Anora betrayed you.

That is what makes it a fact.  When there is no other reasonable explaination (and meta explainations that require little-green men and plotholes are by definition not reasonable) other than betrayal, it ceases to be 'opinion' and becomes fact.  This is such a case.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

It is a fact that any time you write "It is a fact that" the Internet automagically turns the statement into truth.

It is a fact that Queen Anora had a whole legion of duckspawn at her beak and call.

No mousetalker.  It's not a fact that Anora betrays you because I say so.  It's a fact because there is no other possibility.  We've been through this.  Unless you hold out for meta-game knowledge and/or deliberate plotholes (and there is no evidence of this), then the only explaination for Ser Cauthrian showing up on Howe's doorstep with the specific charge of murdering Arl Howe within 10 minutes after you entered his estate with NONE of Howe's men (that still live) twigging to your presence is in fact that Anora betrayed you.

That is what makes it a fact.  When there is no other reasonable explaination (and meta explainations that require little-green men and plotholes are by definition not reasonable) other than betrayal, it ceases to be 'opinion' and becomes fact.  This is such a case.

-Polaris

Anora never betrays me. Never. She may betray you because you choose poorly, but she certainly didn't betray me. Your experience is not a universal one. 

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...
Anora never betrays me. Never. She may betray you because you choose poorly, but she certainly didn't betray me. Your experience is not a universal one. 

Anora always betrays the Warden at the Howe estate.  Otherwise Ser Cauthrien wouldn't be there to try to arrest you on the specific charge of murder.  Do try to keep up.

-Polaris

Edit:  Anora simply hopes that the Warden is too dull to notice.  That's all.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:07 .

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
Anora never betrays me. Never. She may betray you because you choose poorly, but she certainly didn't betray me. Your experience is not a universal one. 

Anora always betrays the Warden at the Howe estate.  Otherwise Ser Cauthrien wouldn't be there to try to arrest you on the specific charge of murder.  Do try to keep up.

-Polaris

Edit:  Anora simply hopes that the Warden is too dull to notice.  That's all.

It is a fact that she does not betray the Warden unless the Warden first betrays her. The evidence for that is quite clear and overwhelming.

[CalJones]

Leave it mate, he's not worth it! 

Seriously, you cannot reason with Polaris on this point - I tried in the other thread and arguing with him is like beating your head against a brick wall. He won't accept anything but his own interpretation. Save your energy.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

... Or, Loghain's men had been following the Warden and his group. Having seen them enter Howe's estate in disguise they put 2 + 2 together and get 4 (yep 4! Astounding!). So there is another explanation to Anora's perceived betrayal.

P.s She is not my favourite character either but there is no 'hard' evidence that directly implicates her in your capture.

Nope.  That doesn't work either.  Again, we went through ALL the possibilities on the 30+ page thread.

It's not impossible that you were shadowed by Logain's men.  However, for you'd then have to assume that they:

1.  Did not warn Arl Howe that you were coming.  That seems most unlikely doncha think given Howe's importance to Loghain and how close the two became?

2.  If they did have good inside information, they would know that you had no intention of murdering Arl Howe and in fact (if they were close enough to get the information you imply) would know that Erlina specifically begged against it.

3.  The fact remains, that even if you could somehow (and you can't) explain away the first two points, the shadowing people could NOT have entered Howe's estate with you without completely blowing their cover which means they couldn't possibly have known that Arl Howe was in fact dead!

The reason is it IMPOSSIBLE for Anorna not to have betrayed you is because outside your immediate party she (and Erlina her servant) are the only living people that in fact know that Arl Howe is dead when Ser Cauthrien arrives.....and that means that Ser Cauthrien must have gotten her info from Anora.

We've hashed this over and over, and I know that many of your Anora apologists don't want to admit this, but there IS no other in-game explaination.  none.  nada, zip.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

Leave it mate, he's not worth it! 

Seriously, you cannot reason with Polaris on this point - I tried in the other thread and arguing with him is like beating your head against a brick wall. He won't accept anything but his own interpretation. Save your energy.

This is Paul Harvey with the rest of the story.  If you read that other long thread, you've find (and not just by me by a long chalk!) that when people really examined the timing evidence (and verbal evidence), the overall community agreed that I was right.  Anora betrays you.  There is no other explaination that is internally game - consistant.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

It is a fact that she does not betray the Warden unless the Warden first betrays her. The evidence for that is quite clear and overwhelming.

This is demonstrably false.  The Warden at no point betrayed Anora when she betrays the Warden to Ser Cauthrien to have him (or her) arrested.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

On the old thread a majority did not agree with you. Very much not. It is a fact that you completely ignore the irrefutable evidence to the contrary on any assertion you dislike and proceed from a base of prejudice and opinion presented by you as fact.



Besides, if Anora hated my Cousland character so much as to betray her, when then did she agree to marry her later on?

[Wulfram]

I agree that Ser Cauthrien's appearance is a bit of a plot hole, but Anora having informed her makes no sense either.

She is quite willing to betray the warden if it suits her, but this betrayal would serve no purpose and put her at grave risk.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Leave it mate, he's not worth it! 

Seriously, you cannot reason with Polaris on this point - I tried in the other thread and arguing with him is like beating your head against a brick wall. He won't accept anything but his own interpretation. Save your energy.

This is Paul Harvey with the rest of the story.  If you read that other long thread, you've find (and not just by me by a long chalk!) that when people really examined the timing evidence (and verbal evidence), the overall community agreed that I was right.  Anora betrays you.  There is no other explaination that is internally game - consistant.

-Polaris

Appeal to a majority if you want, but it won't wash with reason. 

I don't have to.  I am pointing out (in response to another poster) that the majority did in fact agree.  While that's not logical proof (never said it was), it does stand to reason that the majority is generally (not always) right on such things.

The only thing I have to appeal to is the rule of the excluded middle.  Essentially (and I think it's fair to exclude all hypothesis that involve out-of-game elements) if I can eliminate all reasonable possibilities except one, then that possibility has to be the truth.

I have done this.  Who could know when Ser Cauthrien arrives that Arl Howe is dead.  Not is upstairs guards.  They don't even know (yet) there was an intruder (assuming disquises were used).  Also there is no evidence of a Hew and Cry (and Howe's dungeon while being very hard to escape from almost makes it a death trap when you assault it which means that none of Howe's men escaped from downstairs either).

This means that all of Howe's men (including Howe) that know you killed him are dead.

However, Anora and Erlina would see the mage-ward on the door go down and since they know the mage is next to Arl Howe, they also know that Arl Howe is dead.  Furthermore they know virtually the instant you kill him which gives them at least 5-10 minutes to send a message (more than enough if Ser Cauthrien's forces are waiting for a signal).  The thing is they are the ONLY ones that know.

Thus I appeal to the excluded middle.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

I agree that Ser Cauthrien's appearance is a bit of a plot hole, but Anora having informed her makes no sense either.
She is quite willing to betray the warden if it suits her, but this betrayal would serve no purpose and put her at grave risk.

 No it's not.  Anora betrays you.  If you have to appeal to "plot hole" then you concede the argument.

-Polaris

Edit:  This is what I mean by my posts above:  Given the choice between appealing to unprovable plotholes, or an explaination that makes perfect sense and requires no special plotholes, the one without the plothole is almost certainly going to be the correct one.  There is no plothole.  Anora betrays you.

Edit PPS:  Basically "plothole" is a dirty word.  If you appeal to "plothole" then ntohing can be shown/proven in the game.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:35 .