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Anora's Gambit for the throne


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#76
mousestalker

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IanPolaris wrote...

However, Anora and Erlina would see the mage-ward on the door go down and since they know the mage is next to Arl Howe, they also know that Arl Howe is dead.  Furthermore they know virtually the instant you kill him which gives them at least 5-10 minutes to send a message (more than enough if Ser Cauthrien's forces are waiting for a signal).  The thing is they are the ONLY ones that know.

Thus I appeal to the excluded middle.

-Polaris


It doesn't take nearly that long to get back to Anora. It takes my wardens maybe thirty seconds, and that's if they stop to loot Howe and his lads. 

Get a better PC and you'll never be betrayed by Anora.

QED.

#77
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

I agree that Ser Cauthrien's appearance is a bit of a plot hole, but Anora having informed her makes no sense either.
She is quite willing to betray the warden if it suits her, but this betrayal would serve no purpose and put her at grave risk.


Actually it makes a lot of sense to betray the warden (read the first two pages of this thread).  Certainly she has the motive, methode,and opportunity, and it doesn't put her at any great risk...unless the warden is smart enough to see through it.

-Polaris

#78
Wulfram

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Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.

#79
IanPolaris

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mousestalker wrote...
It doesn't take nearly that long to get back to Anora. It takes my wardens maybe thirty seconds, and that's if they stop to loot Howe and his lads. 

Get a better PC and you'll never be betrayed by Anora.

QED.


It takes at least 10 mins or so to go down into the Dungeon and do the dirty, and it also takes only seconds to send a signal if everyone is prepositioned. (And Anora might send Erlina to Ser Cauthrien right after you leave since either Howe dies or you do and either way Ser Cauthrien will be needed.)

In short, your argument fails.  QED.

-Polaris

#80
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.


Corrrection. You don't want it to make sense, so you'd rather skip logic entirely and appeal to an unprovable "plothole" than admit that she did in fact betray you.

Read the first two pages on this thread.  There are many good reasons (from her PoV) why Anora would want to betray you this way especially if she can make political connections with both sides of the landsmeet so no matter what happens she stays on the throne.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:42 .


#81
IanPolaris

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Glaucon wrote...

ETA

If she did anything it was to take advantage of circumstances.  That would just make her highly political/strategic which is no crime.  Anora wants power, to be sure, but she lacks resources --which is why she is reduced to using a maid to facilitate her escape/release.  To my mind Anora seems to believe that she has lost control of her future -due to both her father's and Howe's actions- and is grasping at all available straws to regain control of her future.  Why she does not remain in detention once our Warden is captured is the result of it being Loghain's troops who intercept you and not Howe's (who I believe is acting beyond his remit).


It's still betrayal no matter how you slice it.  And if Anora stabs you in the back for some other reason at the landsmeet and you mention her rescue, she'll scoff and note that she never was any real danger (confirmed by both Logain andHowe if you talk with them on this point).

I don't know about your wardens, but my wardens take a dim view about being stabbed in the back so obviously and then having their intelligence insulted so badly.

-Polaris

#82
Wulfram

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IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.


Corrrection. You don't want it to make sense, so you'd rather skip logic entirely and appeal to an unprovable "plothole" than admit that she did in fact betray you.


I've got no problem with admitting that Anora betrays the warden on other occasions.  She'll do almost anything to become Queen.

But she's not an idiot.

Read the first two pages on this thread.  There are many good reasons (from her PoV) why Anora would want to betray you this way especially if she can make political connections with both sides of the landsmeet so no matter what happens she stays on the throne.

-Polaris


I've read the first two pages.  I see no good reasons from her or any point of view.
Anora knows Eamon would never support her for the throne over Alistair.  The warden is the only relevant ally she can get from that side, and she's taking actions which are most likely to result in their death - as well as putting herself in grave danger.

#83
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IanPolaris wrote...

Glaucon wrote...
... Or, Loghain's men had been following the Warden and his group. Having seen them enter Howe's estate in disguise they put 2 + 2 together and get 4 (yep 4! Astounding!). So there is another explanation to Anora's perceived betrayal.

P.s She is not my favourite character either but there is no 'hard' evidence that directly implicates her in your capture.


Nope.  That doesn't work either.  Again, we went through ALL the possibilities on the 30+ page thread.


I can imagine how that thread went.  But it does raise the question as to why it failed to produce a compact rebuttal of any defence of Anora.

IanPolaris wrote...
It's not impossible that you were shadowed by Logain's men.  However, for you'd then have to assume that they:

1.  Did not warn Arl Howe that you were coming.  That seems most unlikely doncha think given Howe's importance to Loghain and how close the two became?


I think that Howe is acting beyond his remit and that Loghain warning him of the Warden's rescue attempt would probably have resulted in her execution (to be pinned on the Warden).  This is not something Loghain wants.  Any of Howe's/Loghain's men following you would have the same amount of time as you have in getting from Eamon's estate to Howe's estate.  In addition they would also have to assemble a reaction force which increases their response time beyond the time it takes you to begin any rescue.  They arrive as you are about to leave. 

IanPolaris wrote...
2.  If they did have good inside information, they would know that you had no intention of murdering Arl Howe and in fact (if they were close enough to get the information you imply) would know that Erlina specifically begged against it.


My femal HN warden had every intention of exacting revenge on Howe.  I haven't suggested how the espionage is conducted or what information is gathered.

IanPolaris wrote....
3.  The fact remains, that even if you could somehow (and you can't) explain away the first two points, the shadowing people could NOT have entered Howe's estate with you without completely blowing their cover which means they couldn't possibly have known that Arl Howe was in fact dead!


I don't imagine a large armed group skulking in shadows waiting to pounce.  I imagine one or two insiders and a few followers who are just logging your movements.  So in that instance they certainly wouldn't be sneaking into Howe's estate with you.  In fact: they don't.  What appears to happen is that Loghain's men are informed and arrive (just) in time to prevent a successful rescue.

IanPolaris wrote...
The reason is it IMPOSSIBLE for Anorna not to have betrayed you is because outside your immediate party she (and Erlina her servant) are the only living people that in fact know that Arl Howe is dead when Ser Cauthrien arrives.....and that means that Ser Cauthrien must have gotten her info from Anora.

We've hashed this over and over, and I know that many of your Anora apologists don't want to admit this, but there IS no other in-game explaination.  none.  nada, zip.
-Polaris


What does Howe being dead at this point have anything to do with?  The time frame between killing Howe and being confronted by Cauthrien is just a few minutes (maybe even under 60 seconds).

I fail to see the benefit of throwing around labels such as 'apologist'.  It's quite antagonising and doesn't help rational debate. 

Modifié par Glaucon, 21 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .


#84
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The whole argument that you present is hinged on the (apparent) fact that Cauthrien knew Howe was dead the second she comes in through the door.

If you're playing a HN then Howe's death is a given. Cauthrien and Loghain will know that if the warden has gone to Howe's estate then there are only two outcomes. When Cauthrien witnesses you standing at the exit with Anora in tow the outcome is known.

ETA

I would even extend that logic to other Origins too.  Howe's nature coupled with the scenario that he has created inevitably leads to his death.  Loghain and Cauthrien know Howe too.  I get the impression from the game that Howe at this point has become a liability so it would not surprise me if Loghain would have had him executed any way.  Howe is not the only self-serving sycophant in Ferelden and Loghain could have awarded his assets to any other noble --the noble who backs Loghain regardless for instance.  I don't deny the possibility of it being within Anora to betray anyone to advance her own position but if we are to continue to accuse her of a specific instance then we should find her guilty in an appropriate manner.

Also the Excluded Middle is not so much a method of inference as it is a law of consistency and should not be used in isolation.  It certainly holds sway in low order boolean logic but I would suggest that we are discussing a high order argument and perhaps, even, one where boolean values are inappropriate. 

Modifié par Glaucon, 21 décembre 2010 - 01:12 .


#85
Persephone

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IanPolaris wrote...

2.  If you say that Logain must die, she still openly agrees to back you if you agree to back her for the Throne and even says "We have a deal".  This is true whether you get her to marry Alistair or not.  She quite blatently lies and betrays you on this, and hardened Alister is quite correct (when you arbitrate the Landsmeet), "She betrayed us once, can you trust her again.  She could have you exiled or killed the moment you put on the crown."

That is a very compelling argument against her.....and don't bother trying to deny it. 
-Polaris


Of course she will, telling her blatantly that you plan to butcher her father in front of her cannot end well, even if she, a politician, won't let you know that. Dealing with Bhelen taught my Warden to play politics. Besides, I never tell her that her father MUST die. It's not something she should hear, IMO. What WERE you expecting? Anora is very ruthless indeed. Her father's life however is the line she will not cross. She even tells you this.

#86
nos_astra

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Wulfram wrote...
Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.

Unless you believe Anora truly fears Cauthrien it makes also little sense not to back you up when you reveal to Cauthrien what you are actually doing. What's Anora's point? The Warden is at danger at the hands of Cauthrien/Loghain.

I don't like playing the rescue mission any more, it's completely illogical. I try to reduce the plot nonsense by killing Cauthrien at Howe's estate.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 décembre 2010 - 02:09 .


#87
nos_astra

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Persephone wrote...
Of course she will, telling her blatantly that you plan to butcher her father in front of her cannot end well, ...

You say no such thing, you just say Loghain deserves to die.

#88
Persephone

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klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course she will, telling her blatantly that you plan to butcher her father in front of her cannot end well, ...

You say no such thing, you just say Loghain deserves to die.


Splitting hairs. No matter how you dress it up. The result is the same. I am behind her 100%. That her father's life is more important to her is only natural.

#89
Persephone

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klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.

Unless you believe Anora truly fears Cauthrien it makes also little sense not to back you up when you reveal to Cauthrien what you are actually doing. What's Anora's point? The Warden is at danger at the hands of Cauthrien/Loghain.

I don't like playing the rescue mission any more, it's completely illogical. I try to reduce the plot nonsense by killing Cauthrien at Howe's estate.


I never kill Cauthrien as her pre-Landsmeet encounter (Especially if you talk her down) is one of my favorite moments in the game. She is a very tragic character and IMO does not deserve to die for serving the man she quite obviously loves.

#90
nos_astra

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Persephone wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course she will, telling her blatantly that you plan to butcher her father in front of her cannot end well, ...

You say no such thing, you just say Loghain deserves to die.

Splitting hairs. No matter how you dress it up. The result is the same. I am behind her 100%. That her father's life is more important to her is only natural.

You just say "he deserves to die", a valid opinion, and if it wasn't for the ridiculuous amount of influence the Warden has for no logical reason, this opinion wouldn't necessarily lead to his death.

#91
nos_astra

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Persephone wrote...
I never kill Cauthrien as her pre-Landsmeet encounter (Especially if you talk her down) is one of my favorite moments in the game. She is a very tragic character and IMO does not deserve to die for serving the man she quite obviously loves.

No, she doesdn't deserve it, but she's in the wrong place at the wrong time, like many other people during Origins.

#92
Persephone

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klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Of course she will, telling her blatantly that you plan to butcher her father in front of her cannot end well, ...

You say no such thing, you just say Loghain deserves to die.

Splitting hairs. No matter how you dress it up. The result is the same. I am behind her 100%. That her father's life is more important to her is only natural.

You just say "he deserves to die", a valid opinion, and if it wasn't for the ridiculuous amount of influence the Warden has for no logical reason, this opinion wouldn't necessarily lead to his death.


She says "He is my father. If there is a way for him to live...." *Hesitation* "I would prefer it."
And the Warden says "There isn't. Without doubt."

Or did I miss an option there?

If any supposed ally of mine told me that the price for their co-operation is my father's life, I'd not keep my composure like she does. I'd tell that ally to go to hell and then some. That's why Anora's a good queen and I wouldn't be. :P:lol:

#93
Persephone

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klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I never kill Cauthrien as her pre-Landsmeet encounter (Especially if you talk her down) is one of my favorite moments in the game. She is a very tragic character and IMO does not deserve to die for serving the man she quite obviously loves.

No, she doesdn't deserve it, but she's in the wrong place at the wrong time, like many other people during Origins.


Still not a valid reason to take her life. Especially since there are other options. And I admit it, the Breakout quest is just too funny to pass up!=]

#94
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I agree, Cauthrien is besotted with Loghain. I've never managed to escape Howe's estate myself (only two runs) and it's definitely a very, very difficult battle. I got it down to just Cauthrien and two others once but there are so many archers present that it's extremely difficult to win.

#95
Wulfram

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Persephone wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I never kill Cauthrien as her pre-Landsmeet encounter (Especially if you talk her down) is one of my favorite moments in the game. She is a very tragic character and IMO does not deserve to die for serving the man she quite obviously loves.

No, she doesdn't deserve it, but she's in the wrong place at the wrong time, like many other people during Origins.


Still not a valid reason to take her life. Especially since there are other options. And I admit it, the Breakout quest is just too funny to pass up!=]


Well, the most sensible other option would be Anora talking her down.  Unfortunately...

#96
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Anora betraying you still makes no sense, and is thus still a plot hole.

Unless you believe Anora truly fears Cauthrien it makes also little sense not to back you up when you reveal to Cauthrien what you are actually doing. What's Anora's point? The Warden is at danger at the hands of Cauthrien/Loghain.

I don't like playing the rescue mission any more, it's completely illogical. I try to reduce the plot nonsense by killing Cauthrien at Howe's estate.



I'd have to agree, except killing Cauthrien, because I do enjoy the the FT' Drakon break out. But

One of my canon play throughs I do call Anora out in front of Cauthrien. It is up to the individual player to decide whether or not they believe or trust Anora and her maid, and this one decided to "test" this potential alliance.

This is what your Warden knows thus far, at the time of the rescue. Anora is a complete stranger (except possibly a human noble, who could have met her before at a previous Landsmeet or get together, or would likely be more familiar with what sort of ruler she is). She is also the current head of state and daughter of your primary adversary. She has made no visible attempt thus far to stop her father's activities and plans as far as you know. You only have a maid/confidant's word that she is in danger from her father and Howe. You have not spoken with her personally to know exactly what her intentions or plans are, or what her views on her father's activities are.

Thus, trusting Anora and risking yourself before Cauthrien is an act of blind faith for most characters. One could concievable take this risk on the grounds of duty or patriotism for surface dwellers: risking one's life for one's king/queen in times of danger, regardless of whether or not you know what's going on, is a pretty feasable reason for many people.

However, there is just as much rational reason to announce her presence. You've just been cornered by Loghain's top lackey and her troops. They want to arrest or kill you, and seem to be in a position to do so pretty easily. For all you know, this could be a trap. You've already  stuck your neck out for Anora by virtue of breaking into Howe's estate, killing him and his men, and releasing her from "captivity". Now it's her turn to show whether or not she can be trusted. She isn't exactly alone, she is in the company of what are supposed to be the most bad ass mo' fos' in Ferelden who eat dragons and darkspawn for breakfast. Hell, she sent for you in the first place. This is her opportunity to show that she is indeed on the same sheet of music you are. Yet announcing her presence causes her to betray you. If she were so terrified that Cauthrien was a threat to her safety, why would she do this, knowing she'd get taken in with the rest of you and murdered?

For one of my canons, telling Cauthrien that Anora was present was chance. If she had already risked her neck for a queen she knew nothing about and cared even less, Anora should be willing to meet her half way. But Anora didn't. She failed her trust test miserably. Plus, it was an opportunity to test to see if there really was a plot by Loghain to kill his own daughter. Which, of course, there wasn't.

Anora's love of drama and theater is useful in most situations. This, however, was not one of them. Whether or not Anora believed her father would really kill her is open to debate, since we don't know for certain (unlike Loghain, who scoffs at the idea that he would be capable of killing his only child, and points out Anora's drama queen tendancies). I would prefer to think it was all hot air and fluff, since the other alternative, her being genuinely paranoid of a nonexistant threat does not do any favors for her fitness as a ruler.

Hardened Alistair's comment about people like Anora  believing themselves soley capable of fixing or improving things is spot on whether true or not, is spot on. Anora betrays you  again if you don't support her at Landsmeet. when you talk to her at Eamons. Whether or not you agree or disagree with Alistair's belief in her capability is not the issue, the fact is, Anora believes only she is the good choice for Ferelden, and will act accordingly, whether or not she actually is the best choice for ferelden's interests. And of course, it is up to the individual to decide if this is the case. Butif one does not believe her to be the best ruler for ferelden, then her double cross at Landsmeet proves to that person that Anora does not care about the country's best interests, at least in that character's mind.

That said, i do favor Anora as queen over Alistair, though I dislike her as an individual and like Alistair as a person and individual much better. It is her manipulative, generally ruthless, and flair for the dramatic tendancies that make her a much more suitable ruler than Alistair. Nice guys finish last is a prettyconsistant rule in politics and government. To survive and be effective at the game, a person has to be, or they will get eaten alive by friend and foe alike.

#97
nos_astra

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Persephone wrote...
Still not a valid reason to take her life. Especially since there are other options. And I admit it, the Breakout quest is just too funny to pass up!=]

There are no other options other than a leap of blind faith that Cauthrien/Loghain won't have you executed or the failed attempt to get Anora to back you up and talk her down.

Why wouldn't the fear for their own life and the future of Ferelden if you don't survive be a good reason not to back down?

Modifié par klarabella, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:42 .


#98
nos_astra

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Persephone wrote...
She says "He is my father. If there is a way for him to live...." *Hesitation* "I would prefer it."
And the Warden says "There isn't. Without doubt.

It has been a while since I went through this dialogue.

No option says you will personally behead Loghain and splatter a ridiculously close Anora with his blood. She's asking merely your opinion.

As I said, I never understood the amount of influence the Warden has at the Landsmeet anyway.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:49 .


#99
KnightofPhoenix

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The fact is, it's sloppy writing.

My canon surrendered, in a calculated risk because:
a- It's not in Loghain's interest to kill the Warden right before the Landsmeet, it would make him look bad (that's the only explanation as to why Cauthrien does not kill you when she beats you that I can think of).
b- I "pretended" to negotiate with Cauthrien my surrender in exchange for the safety of companions, avoiding an unnecessary fight. That's something that was missing in the game but I don't really care, all options in that scenario were not that smart and I'd prefer to imagine things that ought to have been there but aren't.
c- I have Morrigan's ring and she knows where I would be taken, thus capable of mounting a rescue.

So, I find surrendering to Cauthrien an acceptable option, at least due to the bad writing of the entire scenario.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 04:08 .


#100
KnightofPhoenix

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klarabella wrote...
As I said, I never understood the amount of influence the Warden has at the Landsmeet anyway.


One word for that:
Army.

Without it, no one would look at the Warden as an alternative to Loghain.