260 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fact is, it's sloppy writing.

My canon surrendered, in a calculated risk because:
a- It's not in Loghain's interest to kill the Warden right before the Landsmeet, it would make him look bad (that's the only explanation as to why Cauthrien does not kill you when she beats you that I can think of).
b- I "pretended" to negotiate with Cauthrien my surrender in exchange for the safety of companions, avoiding an unnecessary fight. That's something that was missing in the game but I don't really care, all options in that scenario were not that smart and I'd prefer to imagine things that ought to have been there but aren't.
c- I have Morrigan's ring and she knows where I would be taken, thus capable of mounting a rescue.

So, I find surrendering to Cauthrien an acceptable option, at least due to the bad writing of the entire scenario.

True. there are alot of places in game, where one is given little or no in game information to reasonably make a choice because there is nothing to base it upon, that one must use a healthy dose of behind the scenes RP to make sense of it, or justify it.

My human noble protects Anora and supports her at the landsmeet, though she takes Cauthrien on and ends up in Drakon. (She is an extreme personality who does have a habit of taking some rather questionable risks and at the cost of sound reasoning because she's an adrenaline junkie, so it's within character).

To justify this, I RP'd her as having met Anora twice before, though not indepth. She does know enough to be intrigued by whatever it is Anora is up to, and is willing to take the chance. She also genuinely admires Anora as a leader, and sees the queen's desire to stay on the throne as not only the best choice, but a sort of double whammy in Eamon's own scheming. And, she knows enough to keep her plans to execute Loghain under wraps, having enough sense to know that Anora, though opposing her father's activities, would unlikely consent to or support plans to kill him.

My mage, however, was the opposite in most respects. But both cases are canon, as both reflect the duality of my feelings on Anora and the throne in general. And even in my mage playthrough, she ends up on the throne because Alistair dies killing the archdemon. Thus reflecting my preference for her on the throne as sole queen, regardless.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Glaucon wrote...

I think surrendering is the best tactical decision. If we choose to fight Cauthrien then we probably loose and die--I don't know if anyone has escaped? Unless it becomes apparent that our warden is about to be executed it makes sense to just go along with Cauthrien as this leaves the opportunity to escape open and provides a higher chance of success than when cornered at Howe's estate. In fact my last run I opted to surrender then escaped fort Drakon, much to Zevran's and Morrigan's surprise.

I have, with my DN, who not only refused to surrender, but was pretty confident, some might say over confident, that some surfacer lackey was no match for her and her assembled team. In fact. with Morrigan developed as a blood mage and with full mastery of the entropy school, the fight was actually ridiculously easy, and in playthroughs where i want to be captured, i had to deliberately gimp my team so that I could lose.

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

I think surrendering is the best tactical decision. If we choose to fight Cauthrien then we probably loose and die--I don't know if anyone has escaped? Unless it becomes apparent that our warden is about to be executed it makes sense to just go along with Cauthrien as this leaves the opportunity to escape open and provides a higher chance of success than when cornered at Howe's estate. In fact my last run I opted to surrender then escaped fort Drakon, much to Zevran's and Morrigan's surprise.

You're a wanted criminal and Loghain has been sending out assassins after you.  Even with Howe dead, surrendering to Cauthrien is not likely to be good for your health.  You have no idea how ridiculous Fort Drakon security is. 

Blood magic makes the encounter, not easy, but certainly manageable.  If you draw Cauthrien back into the side room and deal with her first, that's the cleanest way to end it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
You're a wanted criminal and Loghain has been sending out assassins after you.

Sending assassins when there wasn't a Landsmeet in preparation.  Him assassinating his main rival before the Landsmeet could endanger his position. That is the only reason that I can think of as to why Cauthrien doesn't kill you when you are at her mercy.

That or ****ty writing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Here's what I did:



Morrigan had Blood magic maxed. First, she drops blood wound area of effect on the whole lot, temporarily disabling all of them, mage included, while inflicing slow spirit damage. That gives her the opprtunity to cast mass paralysis, which disables everyone for a longer period of time. She then drops affliction hex, curse of mortality, and death hex on Cauthrien, who is still at this point paralyzed. Then drops a big fat death cloud to seal the deal (if your party doesn't have their spirit resistances up, now's a good time to break out those balms and salves and use them). Add misdirection hex dropped on Cauthrien when paralysis wears off, or throw single paralysis on her.



Congrats. Everyone's favorite maleficar has just single handedly given you Cauthrien's ass on a silver platter. While Morrigan is busy putting a hurt on everyone, the rest of your party can further this in their own special way. Alistair or anyone who has templar pecced can drop holy smite on the mage. Leliana can add help disable enemies further temporarily with scatter shot. While paralyzed, the mage can be eliminated by a stealthed Zevran. Any rogue can chuck grenades at clusters of enemies while paralized.



Morrigan or whatever mage might get stunned from a few initial scattershots, but don't fret. Have your tank taunt and threaten to keep the aggro off her, and soon, she will get the opportunity to blood wound the lot of them.



Total pwnage of a seemingly impossible enemy was never this easy or fun.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

The whole argument that you present is hinged on the (apparent) fact that Cauthrien knew Howe was dead the second she comes in through the door.

She does.  Otherwise the charge would have been assault on Howe's property.  Surely you know this.

If you're playing a HN then Howe's death is a given. Cauthrien and Loghain will know that if the warden has gone to Howe's estate then there are only two outcomes. When Cauthrien witnesses you standing at the exit with Anora in tow the outcome is known.

Rubblish.  At NO TIME do you threaten to murder Arl Howe, not even when Logain and Howe confront you when you arrive at Denerim for the Landsmeet.  The most aggressive thing a HN does is demand bloodrights which is within the HN's legal rights as a noble of Ferelden. 

Thus even for a HN, Howe's death is NOT a given and not all wardens will be Human Nobles but Ser Cauthrien shows up all the same.  Poor logic on your part.

I would even extend that logic to other Origins too.  Howe's nature coupled with the scenario that he has created inevitably leads to his death.  Loghain and Cauthrien know Howe too.  I get the impression from the game that Howe at this point has become a liability so it would not surprise me if Loghain would have had him executed any way.  Howe is not the only self-serving sycophant in Ferelden and Loghain could have awarded his assets to any other noble --the noble who backs Loghain regardless for instance.  I don't deny the possibility of it being within Anora to betray anyone to advance her own position but if we are to continue to accuse her of a specific instance then we should find her guilty in an appropriate manner.

Bad logic again on your part especially (if you play a HN) Erlina practically begs you not to take Howe's life.  Howe's death is NEVER on your agenda until.....drumroll please....Queen Anora puts it on your agenda.  In fact if you protest and say this is a trap (correctly so), she promises (and lies) about her unmitigated support in the Landsmeet.

Also the Excluded Middle is not so much a method of inference as it is a law of consistency and should not be used in isolation.  It certainly holds sway in low order boolean logic but I would suggest that we are discussing a high order argument and perhaps, even, one where boolean values are inappropriate. 

Actually the excluded middle is a perfectly valid method of proof that applies to any logical argument with known variables.  It's rare in a higher order argument the variables are known so well, but they are here.

Ser Cauthrien within 20 mins after you enter the estate and within about 10mins of being sent to find Arl Howe by Queen Anora shows up KNOWING YOU KILLED ARL Howe.  Not attempted murder.  Not Assault.  Murder.

There is only one possible way Ser Cauthrien to get that information:  Anora betrays you.

Why do some of you have such difficulty with what really is a fact in the game and easily demonstable by simple logic.  I see people jumping through ridiculous contortions to prevent from admitting what the game makes blindingly clear if you are smat enough and level headed enough to see it.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Blood magic rocks in terms of crowd control, because it cdisables a large area of effect of enemies without a ridculously long casting times. Instantly.



My canon mage was a specialist in the spirit school and lightning, as well as specced as a spirit healer/arcane warrior. Even without blood magic, I still took out Cauthrien and her crew with only Alistair as casualty, and since I had revival, that wasn't an issue.



Basically, I had Alistair taunt to draw aggro. Combat magic and Fade shield were both active on my mage. Everyone ganed up on Alistair and Oghren who also was tauntuing. I then dropped force field on Alistair (who was at a safe distance) then dropped crushing prison on him, causing the desired blast and knock down of a large area of enemies. My mage then dropped mana clash on the enemy mage, Alistar eventually holy smited him. My mage then dropped virulent walking bomb on an enemy in a cluster who had the lowest health, then hit him with lighting and arcane bolt to kill him and blow him up. regular walking bomb on another cluster of enemies. Oghren and ali still drawing aggro, but if melee enemies got too close to my mage, I mind blasted them. With what remained, I chain lightninged them.



There are I'm certain many other ways to deal with cauthrien, but in my opinion, you're gonna need a good mage and good timing/right spell combos.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You're a wanted criminal and Loghain has been sending out assassins after you.

Sending assassins when there wasn't a Landsmeet in preparation.  Him assassinating his main rival before the Landsmeet could endanger his position. That is the only reason that I can think of as to why Cauthrien doesn't kill you when you are at her mercy.

That or ****ty writing.

You aren't Loghain's main rival at least as far as the Nobles in the Landsmeet are concerned.  In fact you have no legal standing there at all since as a Grey Warden (even as a HN) you don't have a vote.  You do have an army (yes it's for the blight but the nobles don't necessarily understand that) and that makes them polite to you when you are there, but that's not the same thing.

In this case, you are caught "red handed" (literally) killing a high noble.  If Alistair is with you, the same applies.  Ser Cauthrien as the regent's marshal has the right of high justice and can execute you on the spot and no one will say boo.....the only thing that would happen is the Landsmeet would morph into a treason trial for Eamon.  Queen Anora would not be unhappy with such an outcome either which is solid reason to betray you (playing two ends against the middle)....and the FACT is she does betray you.  There is no other reasonable or logical explaination in game for Ser Cauthrien to arrive when she does with the information she has.  Period.  Deny and obfuscate all you want, but that's the FACT of the matter.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...
So does winning that battle impact on the plot line with regard to Anora?  I understand that we are not meant to win that battle so was the possibility catered for?

It does slightly and in my mind confirms what I already know: Anora set you up.  She adds in a line where she rather snottily says, "Ser Cauthrien's death was such a waste *sigh* but I suppose it can't be helped."  She says that the first time you see her again (since now I always do and win the battle even if I'm not a mage).

The fact that Anora is more concerned about Ser Cauthrien than the fact that she would have KILLED me and presumably her if we were to take Anora's words at face value just prior to that confrontation tells me everything I need to know (especailly when she could have spoken up and defused the situation but didn't...Ser Cauthrien is assured of obeying Anora, her hero's daughter even if no one else is).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
You aren't Loghain's main rival at least as far as the Nobles in the Landsmeet are concerned.  In fact you have no legal standing there at all since as a Grey Warden (even as a HN) you don't have a vote.  You do have an army (yes it's for the blight but the nobles don't necessarily understand that) and that makes them polite to you when you are there, but that's not the same thing.

Loghain refers to you as the puppeteer, and not Eamon, so in his mind, you are his main rival ("it's either you or me the men will follow"). Also, the Wardens can decide the fate of the entire monarchy, not Eamon, and the Landsmeet abides by it, So yes, you are Loghain's main rival, even in the eyes of the nobility that accept whatever you decide and respond to the evidence that you provide.

IanPolaris wrote...
In this case, you are caught "red handed" (literally) killing a high noble.  If Alistair is with you, the same applies.  Ser Cauthrien as the regent's marshal has the right of high justice and can execute you on the spot and no one will say boo

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

My HN spends the whole story waiting to kill Howe. Heck it's her Origin. What Erlina has to do with anything I really can't imagine, unless I should literally shoot the messenger instead?

LeM is not a proof it is an axiom.

Facts not in evidence.  Wanting someone dead (stand in line, lots of people want Howe dead) is not proof and it's not enough grounds for Ser Cauthrien to show up with that charge.

Just because you are in Howe's estate (even with bloody hands) doesn't mean you've killed Howe even if you wanted to.  Thus the charge should be (setting aside the timing for just a moment) "Attempted Murder" not murder....unless Anora ratted you out (which she did).

You seem unable to accept that the only way even for a HN for Ser Cauthrien to be where she is, when she is, with the specific information she has is for Anora to betray you.  That's poor logic and blindness on your part.  Sorry but it is.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You aren't Loghain's main rival at least as far as the Nobles in the Landsmeet are concerned.  In fact you have no legal standing there at all since as a Grey Warden (even as a HN) you don't have a vote.  You do have an army (yes it's for the blight but the nobles don't necessarily understand that) and that makes them polite to you when you are there, but that's not the same thing.

Loghain refers to you as the puppeteer, and not Eamon, so in his mind, you are his main rival ("it's either you or me the men will follow"). Also, the Wardens can decide the fate of the entire monarchy, not Eamon, and the Landsmeet abides by it, So yes, you are Loghain's main rival, even in the eyes of the nobility that accept whatever you decide and respond to the evidence that you provide.

Loghain does yes, but Loghain was not born a noble and is still a commoner at heart (something he confirms if you talk with him later if you recruit him).  It's Loghain who rather stupidly gives you the opportunity to address him directly (by addressing you directly when he 'has the floor' that gives you the opporunty to cut him down in front of the landsmeet).  At no time during the landsmeet itself do the nobles ever directly ask for your testimony.  You do it on Loghain's time because Loghain (seems to be) posturing.

IanPolaris wrote...
In this case, you are caught "red handed" (literally) killing a high noble.  If Alistair is with you, the same applies.  Ser Cauthrien as the regent's marshal has the right of high justice and can execute you on the spot and no one will say boo

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

****ty writing is not a defense.  The fact is as far as the warden knows, he (or she) has no expectation other than a summary execution if they surrender.  When I first saw it, I was shocked it was even an option given what else has gone on in the game.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
At no time during the landsmeet itself do the nobles ever directly ask for your testimony. 

Irrelevent, you get to decide who the monarch will be and no one will dispute your decision.
Add the personal favors you do to some nobles, and you are all set.

****ty writing is not a defense.  The fact is as far as the warden knows, he (or she) has no expectation other than a summary execution if they surrender.  When I first saw it, I was shocked it was even an option given what else has gone on in the game.

-Polaris

I really couldn't care less about defending this (I am not obliged to defend how I play my game), because the entire scenario is written in an idiotic fashion and this is the only place where I metagame. Or pretend that Cauthrien explained herself better (like explicitly say we will be put on trial, given us ample time to escape), in order to justify the entire idiocy of the scene.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

The guard in Fort Drakon says you'll get plenty of fresh air at the gallows tomorrow, FWIW.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
At no time during the landsmeet itself do the nobles ever directly ask for your testimony. 

Irrelevent, you get to decide who the monarch will be and no one will dispute your decision.
Add the personal favors you do to some nobles, and you are all set.

No it's not.  The only reason you get to arbitrate is because Arl Eamon asks you too and Arl Eamon is the most powerful noble in all of Fereldan once Loghain has been removed from the equation.

In short, Eamon decides, not you.  Eamon merely deputizes you to make the choice for him.  Replay the scene and you will see that I am correct.

****ty writing is not a defense.  The fact is as far as the warden knows, he (or she) has no expectation other than a summary execution if they surrender.  When I first saw it, I was shocked it was even an option given what else has gone on in the game.

-Polaris

I really couldn't care less about defending this (I am not obliged to defend how I play my game), because the entire scenario is written in an idiotic fashion and this is the only place where I metagame. Or pretend that Cauthrien explained herself better (like explicitly say we will be put on trial, given us ample time to escape), in order to justify the entire idiocy of the scene.

Some of us do.  If you metagame and rely on bad writing to believe what you want, then there is no point in discussing this because you can prove to yourself anything you like including stuff that is directly contraindicated by the game itself.  Congratulations, you've effectively removed yourself from the discussion.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

The guard in Fort Drakon says you'll get plenty of fresh air at the gallows tomorrow, FWIW.

In a "legal" execution. Otherwise, I see no point at all for Cauthrien not to kill you when she had the chance. Makes no sense whatsoever and the only explanation I can thinlk of is that Loghain would rather not murder you without some semblance of legality (even if it might be legal to just kill you there anyways).

In reality, it's just an excuse to have the breakout quest.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

The guard in Fort Drakon says you'll get plenty of fresh air at the gallows tomorrow, FWIW.

That begs the question of why wait?  The Acting Warden Commander of Fereldan is a dangerous, and canny individual that consistantly beats the odds often in dramatic fashion.  Everyone knows about the Warden's repuation by this point.

There is no reasonable reason not to execute such a dangerous person immediately while you can especailly if you tried and failed (via assassination) twice before.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But she doesn't, even when you are defenseless and beaten. For a reason, which is either because Loghain would rather not kill you, or becaues of ****ty writing.

The guard in Fort Drakon says you'll get plenty of fresh air at the gallows tomorrow, FWIW.

In a "legal" execution. Otherwise, I see no point at all for Cauthrien not to kill you when she had the chance. Makes no sense whatsoever and the only explanation I can thinlk of is that Loghain would rather not murder you without some semblance of legality (even if it might be legal to just kill you there anyways).

In reality, it's just an excuse to have the breakout quest.

Ser Cauthrien killing you on the spot would also be a legal execution by all the laws of Fereldan especially since she catches you red-handed (literally) assaulting a high noble's estate (murder charge not needed...assault is more than enough) and the Warden is already a wanted criminal for his (or her) crimes at Ostagar.

Again, why wait?

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
No it's not.  The only reason you get to arbitrate is because Arl Eamon asks you too and Arl Eamon is the most powerful noble in all of Fereldan once Loghain has been removed from the equation.

In short, Eamon decides, not you.  Eamon merely deputizes you to make the choice for him.  Replay the scene and you will see that I am correct.

Eamon has no choice but to listen to you. You think he likes that you can not only remove Alistair from the throne, but also execute him? And he doesn't say a word, because he can't. The power is yours and never his and he only calls for the Landsmeet once you have assembled all the allies and he only calls it when you give him the ok. 

 Congratulations, you've effectively removed yourself from the discussion.

It was never my intention to discuss it in the first place and I never replied to any of your posts, because that subject is of little interest to me.  I was merely describing how I saw the scene, which you can perfectly ignore, if it bothers you. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Again, why wait?

Go ask the writers.
Fact is, she does, and it's either for a reason in-game or ****ty writing.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
No it's not.  The only reason you get to arbitrate is because Arl Eamon asks you too and Arl Eamon is the most powerful noble in all of Fereldan once Loghain has been removed from the equation.

In short, Eamon decides, not you.  Eamon merely deputizes you to make the choice for him.  Replay the scene and you will see that I am correct.

Eamon has no choice but to listen to you. You think he likes that you can not only remove Alistair from the throne, but also execute him? And he doesn't say a word, because he can't. The power is yours and never his and he only calls for the Landsmeet once you have assembled all the allies and he only calls it when you give him the ok. 

Sure he does, but Eamon knows that nobles that oppose Grey Wardens during the blight often wind up about 8-12 inches shorter.  The Grey Wardens if you speak with Riorden weren't messing around.  They were getting ready to depose Anora and Loghain themselves because they were interfering with their ability to handle the blight and as you tell Levi Dryden, "The Blight Changes Everyone."

So effectively then you do have the power of your army and Eamon knows it, but you still only have those legal rights in the Landsmeet that Eamon gives you, and every noble knows it.

 Congratulations, you've effectively removed yourself from the discussion.

It was never my intention to discuss it in the first place and I never replied to any of your posts, because that subject is of little interest to me.  I was merely describing how I saw the scene, which you can perfexctly ignore, if it bothers you. 

My point is that bad writing is a lame excuse that can prove anything.  The moment I see "plothole" I stop listening because at that point no logical discussion is possible because if you invoke unreasonable and out-of-game elements you can "prove" anything at all.

-Polaris