260 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Loghain has spies watching Eamon's estate. Spies that follow you when you leave said estate (and since you walk out the front door it wouldn't be hard for them to see when you leave). They follow you to Howe's estate. They, naturally, suspect trouble. They send a runner to fetch Cauthrien. Cauthrien enters the estate, sees the dead soldiers strewn about, and makes the logical assumption that gee... maybe Howe is dead too.

"Anora and Cauthrien were in cahoots" is not the only explanation.

Ahh, now there is a possibility I had not thought of. Thanks for pointing out a VERY valid explaination.

It's not valid for one very important reason which somehow gets neglected here.  Sure Loghain's men could have tailed the Warden (but they should have answered to Howe since Howe was Loghain's spymaster).  However, those men have absolutely no way to know that you actually killed Arl Howe!

This is where this hypothesis completely fails.  Ser Cauthrien comes in specifically arresting the Warden for the Murder of Arl Howe.  There is absolutely no way (since this was a last minute change of plans that any would-be tail couldn't possibly know) that Ser Cauthrien could have been told this UNLESS that information came from Anora.

This isn't a matter of fantacism or an unwillingness to see the other side.  I've seen it.  I've rejected it as impossible as should the rest of you...not because you like or dislike Anora but because there is no other explaination that fits ALL the facts the game presents.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

No, the spies don't know you killed Howe. However, the spies are not idiots and thus inform Cauthrien that you've entered Howe's estate. Cauthrien, like the spies, is not a moron so she's going to assume trouble is brewing and run right over. The dead soldiers strewn about the entire estate and the fact that you, and not Howe, show up covered in blood will lead her to the logical assumption that you have butchered Howe. Thus she arrests you for his murder.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

No, the spies don't know you killed Howe. However, the spies are not idiots and thus inform Cauthrien that you've entered Howe's estate. Cauthrien, like the spies, is not a moron so she's going to assume trouble is brewing and run right over. The dead soldiers strewn about the entire estate and the fact that you, and not Howe, show up covered in blood will lead her to the logical assumption that you have butchered Howe. Thus she arrests you for his murder.

You have the queen with you and obviously Howe's men were guarding you so of course you are covered with blood.  That in no way tells Ser Cauthrien that you are guilty of Arl Howe's murder especially since (and Loghain would know this if he did have a tail on you) that was specificaly and expliticity NOT part of the mission (and to be avoided if possible).

You can not get around this without Anora betraying you.  It's the only way Ser Cauthrien can be there in the time she gets there WITH the information she has.  Assautling Howe's Estate is reason enough to arrest you so it's not like she has to "make up" a charge that she isn't sure about either.

Anora betraying you is the only possible explaination unless you resort to the "bad writing" excuse.  Period.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

Your first paragraph makes absolutely no sense. You can't even imagine an alternate scenario without injecting your set image into it so... whatever. Your explanation is not the only explanation. Thank-you and goodnight.

[Persephone]

Sabariel wrote...

Your first paragraph makes absolutely no sense. You can't even imagine an alternate scenario without injecting your set image into it so... whatever. Your explanation is not the only explanation. Thank-you and goodnight.

Sabariel, we do not agree often....but we are in agreement here. 100%. :happy:

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Your first paragraph makes absolutely no sense. You can't even imagine an alternate scenario without injecting your set image into it so... whatever. Your explanation is not the only explanation. Thank-you and goodnight.

My paragraph makes perfect sense.  You don't want to accept it.  Just because the Warden is covered in blood leaving Arl Howe's estate does not ipso facto mean you murdered Arl Howe or even that you encountered him.  Ser Cautherien can not have the information that you murdered Arl Howe just based on observations from the outside so your hypothesis fails.

The only way you can explain both Cautherien's timing AND information is if Anora betrayed you....unless you resort to "bad writing" or "plotholes", but in this case you don't have to because Anora betraying you is not only the only in-game explaination, but it also makes perfect sense given what we learn of Anora.

-Polaris

Edit:  In this case I am right.  Without resorting to "plot device" or other meta-game reasoning, in-game my explaintion is the only one that fits all the facts.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[mousestalker]

Glaucon,



You are clearly ignoring the Eluvian that Anora has in her room. She used it to speak with the Cauthrien via the pocket Eluvian that Cauthrien has in her purse.



That or the blightpoodles did it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not valid for one very important reason which somehow gets neglected here.  Sure Loghain's men could have tailed the Warden (but they should have answered to Howe since Howe was Loghain's spymaster).  However, those men have absolutely no way to know that you actually killed Arl Howe!

And...Anora not only knows this (even though she was nowhere near your Warden when you did) she also managed to, in a short space of time, escape, or send Erlina, to inform Cauthrien that you have just killed Howe...all in the space of the few minutes it takes you to get from the dungeon to Anora's room...and be back in time for you to release her? Really?

I thought the codexes state there's no such thing as teleportation magic? Somebody better inform the circle...the queen is the most epicest mage in da world!

This is where this hypothesis completely fails.  Ser Cauthrien comes in specifically arresting the Warden for the Murder of Arl Howe.  There is absolutely no way (since this was a last minute change of plans that any would-be tail couldn't possibly know) that Ser Cauthrien could have been told this UNLESS that information came from Anora.

Lol. Yeah. The epic mage queen who teleports from her room, across the city, and teleports them all back in the space of a few minutes. Lol.

Because, of course, ser Cauthrien is a complete idiot who can't put two and two together. That Loghain's spies, upon seeing the Warden sneak into Howe's state, thought the Warden was going there for tea and biscuits, and NOT to attack Loghain's most powerful ally. Yeah.

This isn't a matter of fantacism or an unwillingness to see the other side.  I've seen it.  I've rejected it as impossible as should the rest of you...not because you like or dislike Anora but because there is no other explaination that fits ALL the facts the game presents.

-Polaris

Or perhaps...because you dislike Loghain and Anora, have formed a theory that fits YOUR view of what was in the game? And then you call them "facts", even though it's all theory based on minute pieces of incredibly disjointed and ambigious information. You base your theory on a single statement in game taken at absolute face value.

No, sorry, all the "facts" point to incomplete writing. You do realize that developers and writers are not infalliable gods when it comes to continuity and total logic, right?

[Wulfram]

Ser Cauthrien doesn't in fact seem to know that the Queen is imprisoned there, which would explain why her assumption is that you were there to kill Howe

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Lol. Yeah. The epic mage queen who teleports from her room, across the city, and teleports them all back in the space of a few minutes. Lol.

Erlina is obviously free to move around and could have alarmed Cauthrien.

Why Anora would send her to get Cauthrien and then not go with her is beyond me, but the "it's a trap" theory is hinted at in the game and almost works if you kill Cauthrien on the spot. (Wulfram has a point, though. Cauthrien doesn't know that Anora is even there.)

Modifié par klarabella, 22 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Lol. Yeah. The epic mage queen who teleports from her room, across the city, and teleports them all back in the space of a few minutes. Lol.

Erlina is obviously free to move around and could have alarmed Cauthrien.

Why Anora would send her to get Cauthrien and then not go with her is beyond me, but the "it's a trap" theory is hinted at in the game and almost works if you kill Cauthrien on the spot. (Wulfram has a point, though. Cauthrien doesn't know that Anora is even there.)

I wasn't refering to Anora being imprisoned as a block to the theory, I was refering to the amount of time needed to run and fetch Cauthrien, and then get back to the estate, which applies to Erlina, too. It's only a matter of a couple minutes between the time you kill Howe, and when you run into Erlina and Anora again.

So then, by this theory, Erlina is a teleporting mage that can flash back and forther between the palace and Howe's estate, bringing Cauthrien and crew, within a matter of minutes.

Either way, there is hardly sufficent time to move on either side.

[mousestalker]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Lol. Yeah. The epic mage queen who teleports from her room, across the city, and teleports them all back in the space of a few minutes. Lol.

Erlina is obviously free to move around and could have alarmed Cauthrien.

Why Anora would send her to get Cauthrien and then not go with her is beyond me, but the "it's a trap" theory is hinted at in the game and almost works if you kill Cauthrien on the spot. (Wulfram has a point, though. Cauthrien doesn't know that Anora is even there.)

I wasn't refering to Anora being imprisoned as a block to the theory, I was refering to the amount of time needed to run and fetch Cauthrien, and then get back to the estate, which applies to Erlina, too. It's only a matter of a couple minutes between the time you kill Howe, and when you run into Erlina and Anora again.

So then, by this theory, Erlina is a teleporting mage that can flash back and forther between the palace and Howe's estate, bringing Cauthrien and crew, within a matter of minutes.

Either way, there is hardly sufficent time to move on either side.

She used her mobile, obviously. Sheesh....  

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

@IanPolaris

So how does Anora know, with certainty, that our Warden has killed Howe? 

Anora is still locked in her cell when Howe is cut down (I don't think calling it murder is correct either by the way), so she must make an assumption too. You state that the only way Cauthrien can know that Howe is dead is that Anora, via Erlina, has notified Cauthrien, except Anora is locked up when the deed is done and the timing between the warden setting Anora free and the confrontation with Cauthrien is too short (under 60 seconds) to facilitate any action by Anora.

So you allow Anora to assume something and arrive at a conclusion but you deny this ability to any other party. That isn't consistent.

I have answered this already but I will again.  Anora knows you murdered (I agree the proper verb really should be killed but I digress) Howe in the same way if you drop a hammer off a cliff, you don't have to see it fall to know it hit the ground.

Unlike everybody else that's still alive in the game, she knows that you had to directly confront Howe and his bodyguards and you lived, and she knows that Howe certainly doesn't intend to let you live if you give him half an excuse to kill you (and just being in his estate is all the excuse he needs).  Thus Anora knows you killed Howe with a probability that is essentially indistinguishable from one.

Let me address some other points:

Ser Cauthrien is looking right at the queen when she makes her arrest order.  You don't know whether Ser Cauthrien knows the queen is there or not.  It is worth noting that if you defeat Ser Cauthrien, Loghain accuses you of murdering the Queen's guards.........also if Ser Cauthrien didn't know, then that fails to explain why Anora feels comfortable enough backstabbing you if you reveal her (and even she admits it's a backstab later when she says in such a case that they got off on the wrong foot in Howe's estate).  In short, there isn't any evidence that Ser Cauthrien doesn't know the queen is there or not there.

As for the timing, it takes all of thirty second (tops) for Erlina to run out and make a prearranged signal.  If we assume (which in fact is the case) that Anora betrays you, then she (or more likely Erlina) has days of planning and legwork to make sure that Ser Cauthrien and her troops are prepositioned to enter Howe's estate on a moment's notice.  No Fereldan Cell-Phones needed.  However, for anyone ELSE (without prior knowledge) to do so would require Fereldan Cell-Phones.  Her timing is crucial evidence that in fact Anora did betray you because it's only one of two ways (Loghain tails being the other) that can explain how Ser Cauthrien can be at that place and time.  The reason the Loghain tail fails is unlike Anora these hypothetical tails can't possibly know that you even confronted Howe (the Howe Estate is a fairly big place after all). 

I'm sorry, but the evidence is so overwhelming that at this point you're going to have to provide me with solid unshakaeble evidence that Anora didn't betray the warden at Howe's estate.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Ser Cauthrien doesn't in fact seem to know that the Queen is imprisoned there, which would explain why her assumption is that you were there to kill Howe

Facts not in evidence.  At no time does Ser Cauthrien indicate one way or the other that she knows the queen is there.  Indeed, with a setup, Ser Cauthrien wouldn't care (and she doesn't).

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Cauthrien actually seems genuinely surprised when you tell her you have Anora with you. the script note seems to support that Anora is a prisoner if you betray her to cauthrien.

There are few script notes in this conversation, unfortunately. but here's this:

Warden; I'm here to free Anora, who was held captive.
Cauthrien: Don't be ridiculous. The queen isn't being held prisoner here or anywhere else. Her father would never stand for such a thing.
warden: She's right here. Tell her, Anora.
Cauthrien: What?
Anora: Ser Cauthrien! Praise the Maker you're here... This brigand tried to kidnap me! (the "brigand" is the player who saved her -- Anora is turning Cauthrien's attention to the player so she can get away herself, she is pretending to be the victim here)

though there is no script note, when Cauthrien says, "What?" she sounds genuinely surprised and disbelieving.

The approval there is very interesting if you turn yourself over. I get why sten and oghren disapprove (sten disapproves very high), but why do Leliana and Zevran approve?  Perhaps because they believe in subtlety and believe that the warden can escape.

Edit: I am of the camp that this is a bit of an oversight.  I do believe that Anora wanted Howe dead and used the warden to that end, but I also don't think she is the one who informed Cauthrien.  She wanted Alistair out of the way, but not the warden.  She also wanted to escape from Howe and her father -- that's why she went to Eamon.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[mousestalker]

I think my real problem with Anora boils down to two incidents. If your Warden is a Cousland she will tell you how much she liked your mother, which of course begs the question about why nothing was done about Howe's grabbing of Highever. The other has to do with slavery in the Alienage, which impacts directly a city elf, but is also most un-Ferelden in its nature.



It's been argued that Anora is most practical in her outlook. Howe presents her with a fait accompli so she accepts the altered reality. The problem with that is that a pragmatic queen on those oines is the worst sort of ruler. She is unpredictable and laws lose all meaning. When the rule of law breaks down, when the guilty are not punished, order collapses and civil war breaks out. Which happened.



That being the case, why would a Cousland ever back Anora over Alistair?

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

Cauthrien actually seems genuinely surprised when you tell her you have Anora with you. the script note seems to support that Anora is a prisoner if you betray her to cauthrien.

There are few script notes in this conversation, unfortunately. but here's this:

Warden; I'm here to free Anora, who was held captive.
Cauthrien: Don't be ridiculous. The queen isn't being held prisoner here or anywhere else. Her father would never stand for such a thing.
warden: She's right here. Tell her, Anora.
Cauthrien: What?
Anora: Ser Cauthrien! Praise the Maker you're here... This brigand tried to kidnap me! (the "brigand" is the player who saved her -- Anora is turning Cauthrien's attention to the player so she can get away herself, she is pretending to be the victim here)

though there is no script note, when Cauthrien says, "What?" she sounds genuinely surprised and disbelieving.

The approval there is very interesting if you turn yourself over. I get why sten and oghren disapprove (sten disapproves very high), but why do Leliana and Zevran approve?  Perhaps because they believe in subtlety and believe that the warden can escape.

I bolded the key line here.  Anora could have had Ser Cauthrien free her at any time (as you point out to Eamon when this nonsense starts) and if Anora really were a prisonor, she wouldn't turn on you like that....and afterwards, Ser Cauthrien seems to care not at all about the Queen, only the warden which makes no sense unless it was a set-up to begin with.

The suprise as far as I can tell comes from the audacity to claim that Anora was a prisoner in the first place...and Howe before you kill him does say that Anora loves her games.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

I think my real problem with Anora boils down to two incidents. If your Warden is a Cousland she will tell you how much she liked your mother, which of course begs the question about why nothing was done about Howe's grabbing of Highever. The other has to do with slavery in the Alienage, which impacts directly a city elf, but is also most un-Ferelden in its nature.

It's been argued that Anora is most practical in her outlook. Howe presents her with a fait accompli so she accepts the altered reality. The problem with that is that a pragmatic queen on those oines is the worst sort of ruler. She is unpredictable and laws lose all meaning. When the rule of law breaks down, when the guilty are not punished, order collapses and civil war breaks out. Which happened.

That being the case, why would a Cousland ever back Anora over Alistair?

Hmmmm, it depends on the Cousland.  A male Cousland may want the throne himself in which case, marrying Anora is the best way for that.  A female Cousland may not want to be queen but may be in love with Alistair, so again, putting Anora on the throne and leaving Alistair as a gray warden may be her choice.

Loghain had the military strength -- Cailin's army was lost in the battle, so Anora didn't have the military backing to oust him, even if she wanted to.  And even if Anora had more power, Howe was Loghain's right hand man -- Anora would not be able to take action against him at that point, even if her ultimate plan was to have Howe executed and have the Cousland's lands restored.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

That being the case, why would a Cousland ever back Anora over Alistair?

My last hardbitten Cousland Rogue did knowing that she betrayed him.  He resented the Grey Wardens and Duncan in particular for (in his eyes) visciously and deceitfully killing off the last of the Cousland line for his own purposes when other candidates (Ser Gilmore) were available and used extorted agreements from his dying father.

So, that along with Arl Howe taught him all the lessons of so-called leadership and royalty he needed to know.  Don't get mad or vengeful.  Just get even.  He who has the power makes the rules.  That was Arl Howe's lesson to him and he appreciated it....even as he knifed Arl Howe in the back in his estate.

So why back Anora?  She's single, female, and if you back her royal.  What better way to get on the throne or at least near it which is a good enough start.  As for betrayal, well......he can play too if she gets too frisky.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I don't think Anora gives a damn about the Couslands or Highever one way or the other.  Certainly her actions seem to indicate that she doesn't care (she dislikes Howe for plenty of other reasons).  I think she says what she says about your mother (if Cousland) to try to get your sympathy and thus your support.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Cauthrien actually seems genuinely surprised when you tell her you have Anora with you. the script note seems to support that Anora is a prisoner if you betray her to cauthrien.

There are few script notes in this conversation, unfortunately. but here's this:

Warden; I'm here to free Anora, who was held captive.
Cauthrien: Don't be ridiculous. The queen isn't being held prisoner here or anywhere else. Her father would never stand for such a thing.
warden: She's right here. Tell her, Anora.
Cauthrien: What?
Anora: Ser Cauthrien! Praise the Maker you're here... This brigand tried to kidnap me! (the "brigand" is the player who saved her -- Anora is turning Cauthrien's attention to the player so she can get away herself, she is pretending to be the victim here)

though there is no script note, when Cauthrien says, "What?" she sounds genuinely surprised and disbelieving.

The approval there is very interesting if you turn yourself over. I get why sten and oghren disapprove (sten disapproves very high), but why do Leliana and Zevran approve?  Perhaps because they believe in subtlety and believe that the warden can escape.

I bolded the key line here.  Anora could have had Ser Cauthrien free her at any time (as you point out to Eamon when this nonsense starts) and if Anora really were a prisonor, she wouldn't turn on you like that....and afterwards, Ser Cauthrien seems to care not at all about the Queen, only the warden which makes no sense unless it was a set-up to begin with.

The suprise as far as I can tell comes from the audacity to claim that Anora was a prisoner in the first place...and Howe before you kill him does say that Anora loves her games.

-Polaris

The thing is, both interpretations are valid, not just one.  which is why it's a shame there's not more scripting notes.  I think Cauthrien was shocked that Anora was in Howe's estate -- that's just how the conversation sounds to me.  Cauthrien's confidence, her absolute disbelief upon hearing that Anora was right there.  Actually, it's Anora lying to Cauthrien about being kidnapped that pretty much convinces me that Cauthrien and Anora were not in cahoots. 

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, both interpretations are valid, not just one.  which is why it's a shame there's not more scripting notes.  I think Cauthrien was shocked that Anora was in Howe's estate -- that's just how the conversation sounds to me.  Cauthrien's confidence, her absolute disbelief upon hearing that Anora was right there.  Actually, it's Anora lying to Cauthrien about being kidnapped that pretty much convinces me that Cauthrien and Anora were not in cahoots. 

Taken in isolation, you're right.  Both interpretations are valid.  However, unless you appeal to bad writing (in which case you can show anything at all), only the betrayal option allows Ser Cauthrien to know that you murdered Arl Howe and his men-at-arms.  It's this that makes other interpretations impossible rather than unlikely.

-Polaris