92 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Zurcior wrote...
after reviewing their battle logs and found that the parties that got more rounds down-range the fastest usually won.

How does having to stop and reload get more rounds down-range faster?

Zurcior wrote...
The old system was too slow and inconvenient as far as I'm concerned.

Having unlimited ammo is too slow and inconvenient? 

now if you're talking about having your gun overheat, that can be a problem but any trained soldier won't sit there spamming like a cod4 player, they'll use controlled bursts that will prevent the gun from over heating. 

The availability of thermal clips may not be an issue for shepard, but running out of ammo is a major problem for soldiers.

[Angel-Shinkiro]

wulf3n wrote...

Zurcior wrote...
after reviewing their battle logs and found that the parties that got more rounds down-range the fastest usually won.

How does having to stop and reload get more rounds down-range faster?

Zurcior wrote...
The old system was too slow and inconvenient as far as I'm concerned.

Having unlimited ammo is too slow and inconvenient? 

now if you're talking about having your gun overheat, that can be a problem but any trained soldier won't sit there spamming like a cod4 player, they'll use controlled bursts that will prevent the gun from over heating. 

The availability of thermal clips may not be an issue for shepard, but running out of ammo is a major problem for soldiers.

Actually the thermal clips is faster because guns like the Revenant can be fired until it overheats and all you have to do is press one button to make it fire again while the ones in ME1 you have to take your time and either stop firing before it overheats or you can let it overheat and wait like 10 secs for it to cool down again.

Modifié par Angel-Shinkiro, 04 décembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[wulf3n]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...ME1 you have to take your time and either stop firing before it overheats or you can let it overheat and wait like 10 secs for it to cool down again.

Or just do short controlled bursts and not over heat or let the enemy move from cover while you're reloading.

Can no one see the benefit of NEVER running out of ammo? I'm not saying you can't have some guns with the new thermal clip system, but why would you NOT wan't a gun with unlimited ammo as a backup?

edit: Not to mention the mods that allow you're gun to be fired indefinitely!

Modifié par wulf3n, 04 décembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Zurcior]

wulf3n wrote...

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...ME1 you have to take your time and either stop firing before it overheats or you can let it overheat and wait like 10 secs for it to cool down again.

Or just do short controlled bursts and not over heat or let the enemy move from cover while you're reloading.

Can no one see the benefit of NEVER running out of ammo? I'm not saying you can't have some guns with the new thermal clip system, but why would you NOT wan't a gun with unlimited ammo as a backup?

edit: Not to mention the mods that allow you're gun to be fired indefinitely!

 Why would I fire in short controlled burst when the guy with the thermal clip system is going full auto on my ass? He'll bring my shields down faster and end me. 

 Also, the ammo system in ME1 was only "unlimited" in the respects of gameplay. The block of metal that supplies thousand of rounds in weapons is still there in the ME2 guns. The thermal clips don't supply the bullets, only the heatsinks. Besides, I'm sure soldiers would carry plenty of thermal clips to get the job done. Firefights don't even last that long, even in modern day warfare.

[wulf3n]

Zurcior wrote...
 Also, the ammo system in ME1 was only "unlimited" in the respects of gameplay. 

And shields that can withstand more than a few shots is also a gameplay aspect.

Zurcior wrote...
The block of metal that supplies thousand of rounds in weapons is still there in the ME2 guns.

So having a thousand rounds that can be fired full auto with mods, is inferior to 30 rounds at full auto before needing to exchange thermal clips?

Zurcior wrote...
I'm sure soldiers would carry plenty of thermal clips to get the job done. Firefights don't even last that long, even in modern day warfare.

You know this from your extensive combat experience?

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 décembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Zurcior]

So having a thousand rounds that can be fired full auto with mods, is inferior to 30 rounds at full auto before needing to exchange thermal clips?

 Mods that were also a gameplay mechanic. Besides, remember sabotage?


You know this from your extensive combat experience?

 Do you? Don't make disingenuous assertions just to satisfy your position. To anwser your question, I enjoy watching watching war documentaries. Rarely is there a complaint of running out of ammo.

[Praetor Knight]

Luigitornado wrote...

Can someone explain what they are? I'm curious.

And remember, a plot hole is something you believe cannot be solved within ME3.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

So unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences do not make a plot hole.

Potential inconsistencies that I've seen that could be defined as a plot hole:

• Being exposed to vacuum without a sealed suit, they must be some tough cookies .
• Planet desciption and mission/assignment desciption descrepancies.
• In Biotics, eezo using an electrical current to work without a proton in the nucleus (but there could be something with an electromagnetic field creating some sort of magnetic force or electrostatic repulsion, maybe even some sort of ionizing effect, but that's assuming the ability is really possible in the first place).

[Praetor Knight]

Zurcior wrote...

Rarely is there a complaint of running out of ammo.

If I may, I would like to ask if you are familiar with battles during the Korean War? or the Battle of the Bulge of WWII?

Ammunition was an issue in those battles, and then there's Murphy's Law

[wulf3n]

Zurcior wrote...

So having a thousand rounds that can be fired full auto with mods, is inferior to 30 rounds at full auto before needing to exchange thermal clips?

 Mods that were also a gameplay mechanic. Besides, remember sabotage?
[b][i]

Actually the mods were a part of the lore of the universe not a game mechanic like never having to change the "block" of fireable material.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 décembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Zurcior]

wulf3n wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

So having a thousand rounds that can be fired full auto with mods, is inferior to 30 rounds at full auto before needing to exchange thermal clips?

 Mods that were also a gameplay mechanic. Besides, remember sabotage?
[b][i]

Actually the mods were a part of the lore of the universe not a game mechanic like never having to change the "block" of fireable material.

 The mods are part of the lore, yes. But their effectiveness weren't. If it were, the geth's data would have been very different, and the heat sink system would have never existed.

[wulf3n]

Zurcior wrote...
 The mods are part of the lore, yes. But their effectiveness weren't. If it were, the geth's data would have been very different, and the heat sink system would have never existed.

If thats what you choose to believe then so be it. I still haven't seen any evidence to show how having at least 1 gun with unlimited ammo is a detriment.

[Dean_the_Young]

wulf3n wrote...

Zurcior wrote...
after reviewing their battle logs and found that the parties that got more rounds down-range the fastest usually won.

How does having to stop and reload get more rounds down-range faster?

By lore, waiting for overheating guns to cool down took longer. You could shoot a gun hot, reload, and shoot again faster than you could if you kept your shots under the heat limiter or waited for a cooldown.

'Unlimited' isn't the same as 'at will', and it can take a long time for one to surpass the other.

Given that heat-sinks can also be lore-depicted as constantly cooling when not in effect, the gameplay conceit (the ammo system) need not even apply to a lore position (such as, for example, constantly cooling heatsinks).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[adam_grif]

The stupid thing about the thermal clips isn't that they exist, it's that guns no-longer passively cool. Even if you stand there with no thermal clips for a week of game-time, it will never fire again until you load a new one.



Sigh.

[Dean_the_Young]

adam_grif wrote...

The stupid thing about the thermal clips isn't that they exist, it's that guns no-longer passively cool. Even if you stand there with no thermal clips for a week of game-time, it will never fire again until you load a new one.

Sigh.

I agree. I'd be perfectly cool if clips passively cooled out of battle. (In battle too, maybe, but extremely slow.)

[Mangalores]

adam_grif wrote...

The stupid thing about the thermal clips isn't that they exist, it's that guns no-longer passively cool. Even if you stand there with no thermal clips for a week of game-time, it will never fire again until you load a new one.

Sigh.

The very stupid thing is that Shepard never takes enough ammo with him and solely depends on his enemies being stupid enough to use the same shell casing. The fact is the firing rates or damage of those guns is by no means superior to what we had in ME1. And with a two shot shotgun I'd prefer the one who can overheat and keep firing to the one that stops working. Some kind of hybrid system really would have been more sensible. Scurrying over a battlefield like a squirrel out for nuts is not very dignified or involving gameplay-wise.


More of a Plot hole: TIM knowing that there will be only a derelict space station on the other side of the Omega relay, not a freaking star empire with thousands of warships. His whole plan of action depended on a single ground soldier and a frigate being capable to make a difference in stopping an enemy the only thing they knew about was that his ships could find stealth frigates and blow them up. Luckily they didn't keep their backyard clean or had sufficient surveillance in place to guard a freaking relay.

[LorDC]

Mangalores wrote...
More of a Plot hole: TIM knowing that there will be only a derelict space station on the other side of the Omega relay, not a freaking star empire with thousands of warships. His whole plan of action depended on a single ground soldier and a frigate being capable to make a difference in stopping an enemy the only thing they knew about was that his ships could find stealth frigates and blow them up. Luckily they didn't keep their backyard clean or had sufficient surveillance in place to guard a freaking relay.

It was a pretty safe bet that there is no "star empire" beyond Omega 4 relay. Because if it was there why would Saren use Geth? Or why they use only one ship?

[daxmeister]

Koyasha wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

From ME: The SR-1, after dropping the Mako on Ilos, meets up with the Fifth Fleet at Arcturus.
1) How did they get from Ilos (the Terminus systems) to Arcturus (the gateway to Earth) in time?
2) Why did Admiral Hackett allow mutineers to join the Fifth Fleet?
3) When they left they didn't know what the Conduit was. Why did they strand Shepard and his team on Ilos?

These three are actually pretty easy to explain away.

1: They were lucky with the configuration of mass relays between those two locations.  We don't know the exact locations of the mass relays: we know that travel from one relay to another is effectively instantaneous, therefore all travel time takes place only while traveling through space under the ship's own power, such as from one relay to another, non-connected relay.  If the relays from Ilos to Arcturus were all within a few minutes travel time of each other, it may have very well taken the Normandy less than a half hour to travel to Arcturus.

2: Because Admiral Hackett is a pretty smart guy.  No, really, this is pretty well established over the course of all those secondary missions he gives you.  He doesn't toe the politicians' lines, he seems to see the situation relatively clearly and do whatever's necessary to accomplish the objective, even if it isn't strictly by the book.  Particularly noticeable if Shepard is a renegade and does the renegade-only mission where Hackett sends her to kill Lord Darius without actually sending her to kill him.

3: As far as I can remember (haven't played it in a while) there's no specific comment about exactly when the Normandy leaves.  So, it's entirely reasonable to say that they were there until Vigil explained what the Conduit was, then they immediately took off on their way back.  The time it took Shepard to climb up the length of the Citadel tower was the time it took the Normandy to travel through the relay system back to Arcturus, as noted above.

There are a lot of other, harder to explain plot holes all over the series, all the way from "don't they have security cameras in the future?" to "why not disable or destroy the collector ship on one of the several occasions you have before the end of ME2?" or even the simple "how is it that in the span of two years, every firearm in the entire galaxy was somehow "upgraded", considering the manufacturing capacity necessary to do that would be astronomically high, but incredibly unprofitable?" but going over them has become rather tedious.  Frankly, the ME series has thus far had some of the worst continuity in all of BioWare's games. 

It's a fun story, but it's the kind of popcorn action-movie story that requires you to intentionally avoid thinking about it, otherwise it breaks.  That's some pretty harsh criticism from me considering I still like the games a lot, but I think it's honest and fair criticism.  I also think that without the voice acting and the expressions of the characters, the story wouldn't stand up at all.  Play the game with dialogue muted and read it from the subtitles, and it just doesn't hold up very well at all - the characters make the game good.

The Thermal Clip argumant can be solved if you remember the old "overheating" game mechanic of Mass Effect 1. It would probably be a relatively simple gun modification (or no modification at all) to allow heat sinks to be manually replaced once they are overheated. Note how every gun that you use tends to have a quite brutal "snapping" when you place a new heat sink into the gun and eject the old one? Surely if the gun was designed to be used like that originally, it would have a clever mechanism to replace the clips mechanically.

Not to mention, metal would melt and remould if it was heated too many times, so weapons would have likely always had a method of replacing the sinks (which also helps make sense of the violent reload animations; they're designed for use when a sink melts and jams the gun) . Therefore, the only thing that the military would need to do would be to start requisitioning more thermal clips than they used to.

[Praetor Knight]

Mangalores wrote...

The very stupid thing is that Shepard never takes enough ammo with him and solely depends on his enemies being stupid enough to use the same shell casing. The fact is the firing rates or damage of those guns is by no means superior to what we had in ME1. And with a two shot shotgun I'd prefer the one who can overheat and keep firing to the one that stops working. Some kind of hybrid system really would have been more sensible. Scurrying over a battlefield like a squirrel out for nuts is not very dignified or involving gameplay-wise.

Well this aspect is left somewhat unanswered, at least ambiguous, but I assume that the cooling mods are replaced with the ejection system so that the thermal clip can be ejected without making the weapons more bulky.

But, I also want to know more about how the thermal clip works, is it simply a heat sink? is there more to it? All that is really clear is that it glows an orangy color and can ignite some type of liquid fuel. (Zaeed LM).

More of a Plot hole: TIM knowing that there will be only a derelict space station on the other side of the Omega relay, not a freaking star empire with thousands of warships. His whole plan of action depended on a single ground soldier and a frigate being capable to make a difference in stopping an enemy the only thing they knew about was that his ships could find stealth frigates and blow them up. Luckily they didn't keep their backyard clean or had sufficient surveillance in place to guard a freaking relay.

The Normandy at least has the stealth system, and with the three ship upgrades can rival a Crusier and possibly a Carrier in firepower, and is able to last longer in a firefight then other ships in its class.

Also, remember TIM risked Shep on the Collector ship (that could have failed), at Horizon (what if the Counter-Measure failed), Shep went in blind at the dead reaper (what if he failed there?)

Don't for get Shep plunged headfirst to get to Ilos in ME, so why not in ME2?

[Dean_the_Young]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

The very stupid thing is that Shepard never takes enough ammo with him and solely depends on his enemies being stupid enough to use the same shell casing. The fact is the firing rates or damage of those guns is by no means superior to what we had in ME1. And with a two shot shotgun I'd prefer the one who can overheat and keep firing to the one that stops working. Some kind of hybrid system really would have been more sensible. Scurrying over a battlefield like a squirrel out for nuts is not very dignified or involving gameplay-wise.

Well this aspect is left somewhat unanswered, at least ambiguous, but I assume that the cooling mods are replaced with the ejection system so that the thermal clip can be ejected without making the weapons more bulky.

But, I also want to know more about how the thermal clip works, is it simply a heat sink? is there more to it? All that is really clear is that it glows an orangy color and can ignite some type of liquid fuel. (Zaeed LM).

It's a heat sink. That's why it's universal: it doesn't matter what the gun shoots, they're just all made to accept the same sort of heat-sink to carry the heat. Sort of how like most electronics use the same sort of batteries (AA, AAA) no matter where they're made.

[Praetor Knight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well this aspect is left somewhat unanswered, at least ambiguous, but I assume that the cooling mods are replaced with the ejection system so that the thermal clip can be ejected without making the weapons more bulky.

But, I also want to know more about how the thermal clip works, is it simply a heat sink? is there more to it? All that is really clear is that it glows an orangy color and can ignite some type of liquid fuel. (Zaeed LM).

It's a heat sink. That's why it's universal: it doesn't matter what the gun shoots, they're just all made to accept the same sort of heat-sink to carry the heat. Sort of how like most electronics use the same sort of batteries (AA, AAA) no matter where they're made.

I know they call it a heat sink <_<, , and I know how they can be kept universal, just look at the European car parts industry, they do that today.

But there are many ways a heat sink can be made. What I meant was is there some sort of copper coil inside? Is a liquid coolant of some sort encased inside the thermal clip?

Why does it flash red when on the ground and so on?

That's what I meant.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, I apologize. Let's see. I believe the Mass Effect's technobabble justification is...



that it's a heat sink.



Don't ask questions!

[Badpie]

I'm less concerned with the gameplay stuff like "why were there dog tags in crates?" and combat related inconsistencies that are there to expedite gameplay and such. I'm more concerned with plot related stuff and lazy writing. And there was a lot of lazy writing in ME2.



The biggest things that stick out for me were:



1) Anything with Wilson. Okay so we're supposed to infer that Wilson is destroying everything why? .....anyone? The best answers I can come up with are A. He's a disgruntled employee or B. He hated Miranda. And while I suppose you could say that happened, it just seems contrived and stupid and lazy to me.



2) Where did Mordin get the seeker swarm bug he was studying before they went to Horizon? Hm? HMMM? Go ahead and say "well I mean they must have picked it up somewhere" and sure that obviously must be the case but again, LAAAAZY.



3) The Illusive Man: "Liara is working for the shadow broker. You can't trust her." (later..) "Hey! Here's some intel for your friend Liara who is trying to take down the Shadow Broker!" *grumble*



4) Shepard: "I know I only ever take two of you with me on every mission I go on, but hey...we're all friends now...WHO WANTS ICE CREAM? Come on, pile into the shuttle! All of you! YES ALL OF YOU!" ...wut?



5) Nevermind that the writers completely dropped the ball with anything relating to your former dealings with Cerberus, your past friendship/romance with Ashley or Kaidan and the ****** poor robot Shepard reunion on Horizon.

[Luigitornado]

adam_grif wrote...

The stupid thing about the thermal clips isn't that they exist, it's that guns no-longer passively cool. Even if you stand there with no thermal clips for a week of game-time, it will never fire again until you load a new one.

Sigh.

Yeah...but if you did allow them to cool then what would be the point of the mechanic of using the clips?

I like thermal clips better...

[Knoll Argonar]

Problem is: some people are too obsessed with Mass Effect.

It's more productive to not ask why, why,why, whyyyy at everything. It happens, end of story. You don't need to know why Wilson does this or that, you don't need to know why TIM says this or that.

It happens, period.

For some reason Wilson goes mad and wants to scape from that project. For some reason TIM didn't trust Liara (neither she knew what she was up to) bur after he discovers her plans he suggests you to help her.

And, although they really messed up many things between Cerberus and you (even though this is not so clear), I found kaidan/ashley reactions quite realistic.

[Spornicus]

Thermal clips aren't a plothole. The thermal clips have nothing to do with the PLOT of the story. It has to do with the GAMEPLAY. There's no such thing as plotholes in gameplay changes. Now gameplayholes? Sure, why the hell not, you all already look like complete idiots for going on Mass Effect forums to **** and moan about every little mistake you can find and ignoring all the great parts of the game.