21 réponses à ce sujet

[oyzar]

Some strategies are insanely powerful, some might be called fair and just countering what the opponent is doing while others make what is otherwise hard battles seem very easy. Sheild of balduran is in the game and makes what would otherwise be among the the thoughest fights very easy for example. As my solo sorceror in chapter 2 i just discovered that project image + wish even right after hitting level 18 give me something like 21 tries on getting whatever i want (usually a rest, but while doing that i can probably get a nearly unlimited amount of wands, potions and the like). At level 30 even the simlacrums will be able to cast level 9 spells...

[wise grimwald]

In general, I think that cheese consists of acquiring other peoples ideas and using them ad nauseum.



If you make home made cheese as you have done, it becomes very tasty. (Much better than the supermarket variety!!) As Wallace said, "Nothing beats a nice bit of Wensleydale Gromit".



(That's if the cheese is that actually made in Wensleydale.) Why don't we Brits protect the name of our good cheeses, the same way as the French do?

[Kevin Lynch]

For my purposes, "cheese" always referred to abusing a game system in a way that wasn't meant by the developers or through using advanced knowledge of a combat situation to your advantage. The easiest one is tossing aoe spells into a room when your party doesn't yet have any knowledge of what's in the room even though you, as the player, may know exactly what's there. That's cheesy.



Suffice to say, though, that there's nothing wrong with enjoying the game the way you like. Is there anyone who doesn't take advantage of the omniscient power of the player in that way?

[oyzar]

Is there any way to kill kangaxx without cheese? I just tried to kill him by running him out of imprisonments by summoning a bunch of stuff (infinite by wishresting), but after about two dozen it occured to me that improve hasted protection from undead mordys can take him down just fine... How do you kill him as a sorc without using protectionm from undead? I suppose you can use all the spell immunities and bash away at him with staff or sling? Does that even work? Sounds insanely slow.. On a sidenote, what buffs do and doesn't work on mordys?

Modifié par oyzar, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[polytope]

IMO cheese is anything which is blatantly implausible and only works because it's a computer game; I.e. cloudkill on offscreen enemies, blade barrier + sanctuary, setting traps near creatures you want to attack but are still neutral.



Other than that, using spells in a way the devs didn't intend may be cheesy - i.e. Jaheira's harper call spell can kill some tough enemies through stat drain. I personally don't use wish from PI because it seems the designers intended wish spell to have an element of randomness.



About Kangaxx... You only need 1 spell immunity vs. vanilla game Kangaxx (Abjuration) + improved haste melf meteors (to overcome his regeneration rate). Also, no point cast imp haste on mordies as they've only got 1 apr.

[oyzar]

I thought he was immune to +3 weapons as well?

[Czacki]

You need no spell immunities against kangaxx.



There's a scroll of magic protection that makes you invulnerable to all spells and abilities kangaxx has for 10 minutes.



In addition, you can buy staff of Rynn +4 early in the game which is enough to hit him.







Any instance of using scroll of magic immunity is cheese to me.

[HoonDing]

Is it cheese to use an enemy's bad AI to win? For a demilich, who's supposed to be the most powerful spellcaster in the Realms, all vanilla Kangaxx does it just spamming Imprisonment. If you're protected from this, he's as dangerous as a kobold.

[oyzar]

What i said is that there seem very few ways to beat him without using scroll of magic/undead protection (undead protection is better and cheaper though).

[igneous.sponge]

oyzar wrote...

I thought he was immune to +3 weapons as well?

Melf's Meteors are regarded as +6 weapons.

You can also buff yourself against Imprisonment by simply going Berserk (in addition to things like SI: Abjuration, Prot. from Magic, Prot. from Undead). Inundating Kangaxx with summons is also a do-able, if messy, tactic. That's how I took him down the first time I played the game.

The Improved Mace of Disruption is also inordinately effective, here. Kangaxx will usually succumb to disruption in just a few hits, if that.

Regarding cheese... my sensibilities fall in line with those of Kevin and polytope. (Sometimes cheese can be tasty, though, in an evil sort of way.) I, myself, also find things like the Shield of Balduran somewhat cheesy, because they completely obviate the challenge, rather than just make it more manageable.

[Morbidest]

Isn't the degree of cheeziness of an item a function of what you use it against? In ToB winding up with two archmages in a party of 6 is not that unusual, nor is loading them with several planetar spells (not to mention scrolls for lev 8 similariums). But playing in such a way that you ALWAYS have a planetar on hand throwing earthquakes strikes me as cheesy against anyone but Draconis or Mel. Afterall, in the vanilla game an invisible, ever healing, opponent like Drac strikes me as developer cheese. And using a good Wensleydale to blop out the taste of spoiled brie seems fair to me.

[Matuse]

Is there any way to kill kangaxx without cheese?

One game, Minsc walked up with the iMoD and critted him on the first swing. SPLAT!



Collect 1 ring of gaxx.

[Son of Imoen]

Using meta-gaming knowledge (i.e. using information you have from playing previous games or because you reloaded after you've found out in which way your party gets beaten and using that information) is cheese. But I wouldn't know how to beat the game without using that kind of knowledge once in a while.

Newcomers on the BG-fora often complain about how insanely difficult the game is and how much they get beaten, shot or spell-peppered to death. That's because imo the game requires the player to acquire meta-gaming information in order to end the campaign victoriously. Especially when solo-ing. I've only tried it once and failed (got stuck at High Hedge needing a skull for a way to get lots of xp but couldn't survive six knive-throwing skeletons on my own to get 1 of their skulls). Whom of you ever did a solo-runthrough without using meta-gaming information about the enemies you encounter? I guess it's impossible.

The game is meant to be fun. Isn't 'cheese' a word most often applied for another gamer who uses a tactic you yourself would refrain from because your own way of enjoying the game makes a different use of meta-gaming knowledge? As I said, I suspect everyone who beated the game has applied meta-gaming knowledge. Even if it's just knowledge from the same character dying. IRL you couldn't use information about what caused your death to avoid that death by skipping back to the moment 5 minutes before your death.

Modifié par Son of Imoen, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Czacki]

I solo'ed the game without any ingame information. yup it was my first run. With a monk, to make it funnier. (In BGT)

Modifié par Czacki, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

A solo monk no-reload through BG1 as your first experience of the game? Impressive.

[Thrar]

Metagaming and cheese are two different things to me.
In almost any single-player game, metagaming knowledge is applied. In fact, if a rookie could complete the game on their first try, most people would consider that game to be too easy. Even in multiplayer games you have that kind of thing; you might know a player from previous games, so you can predict what strategies and playstyle he prefers. This is way older than computer games, for instance, in many card games you can notice something similar.

In my understanding, the word 'cheese' in this use is derived from 'cheat', modified to refer to a less negative meaning. I've seen several posters say something like 'use of tactics that a DM wouldn't allow' or 'exploiting the limitations of the game (including bugs) or its AI', both of which I'd agree with. These allow some leeway though, even with the same definition, what one person calls cheese may seem quite normal to the next.

I'm actually quite curious about the origins of the word 'cheese' in this context. Does anybody know if this is a creation of the BG2 (or possibly BG) players or has it been around for longer? There is Userunfriendly's Cheese Guide, the last version of which has been released in 2003, but the User himself has been around and cheesing since at least 2001. The word used in that sense can be found at GameBanshee in Nov 2000, but doesn't appear to be the first instance. Is anyone up to writing a wikipedia article on this word?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Cheese is simply the noun to the adjective, cheesy, and to my understanding that one has had a negative connotation for quite some time now.

cheesy [ˈtʃiːzɪ]
adj cheesier, cheesiest
[...]
2. Informal (of a smile) broad but possibly insincere a big cheesy grin
3. Informal banal or trite; in poor taste

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/cheesy

[wise grimwald]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

For my purposes, "cheese" always referred to abusing a game system in a way that wasn't meant by the developers or through using advanced knowledge of a combat situation to your advantage. The easiest one is tossing aoe spells into a room when your party doesn't yet have any knowledge of what's in the room even though you, as the player, may know exactly what's there. That's cheesy.

Suffice to say, though, that there's nothing wrong with enjoying the game the way you like. Is there anyone who doesn't take advantage of the omniscient power of the player in that way?

I don't actually agree with this definition of cheese.

On this basis, using the shield of Balduran in the sewers is not cheesy as the shield was actually put there by the developers. I think that it is cheesy, though that doesn't stop me using it.

On the other hand Kevin is saying that using your brain to outwit enemies IS cheesy. If you scout ahead to find enemies and then hit them with web and cloudkill, in my opinion that is skill, not cheese.

The problem is that YOU know whether it is necessary to scout ahead. Once the info is in there, you can't delete it. That's why I like mods that move the enemy or changes them in some way.

[igneous.sponge]

wise grimwald wrote...

On the other hand Kevin is saying that using your brain to outwit enemies IS cheesy. If you scout ahead to find enemies and then hit them with web and cloudkill, in my opinion that is skill, not cheese.

I agree with you, though that's not quite what Kevin said. His words were "tossing aoe spells into a room when your party doesn't yet have any knowledge of what's in the room", so his outlook doesn't conflict with strategic scouting ahead of combat engagement. In this instance, I think he was referring to abuse or exploitation of the system purely from meta-knowledge.

The problem is that YOU know whether it is necessary to scout ahead.
Once the info is in there, you can't delete it. That's why I like mods
that move the enemy or changes them in some way.

Ah, the eternal conundrum: how to make what's old new again.

[Kevin Lynch]

wise grimwald wrote...

I don't actually agree with this definition of cheese.

On this basis, using the shield of Balduran in the sewers is not cheesy as the shield was actually put there by the developers. I think that it is cheesy, though that doesn't stop me using it.

On the other hand Kevin is saying that using your brain to outwit enemies IS cheesy. If you scout ahead to find enemies and then hit them with web and cloudkill, in my opinion that is skill, not cheese.

The problem is that YOU know whether it is necessary to scout ahead. Once the info is in there, you can't delete it. That's why I like mods that move the enemy or changes them in some way.

Nah, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm meaning that if your characters in the game don't know that there are enemies ahead, then you as the player exploiting your own knowledge to benefit your in-game party is "cheese". What you would do, in normal situations if you were the character(s) in the game, would be to scout ahead, as you say. In a game where trouble lurks around every corner, scouting ahead just makes sense.

Basically, I think we are agreeing, although I think "cheese" is a little more broad in definition than perhaps you are allowing. Fortunately, my definition of it doesn't matter.

[wise grimwald]

I didn't read your post carefully enough. Having done so, I think that our positions are actually quite close.



We will inevitably have varying attitudes to what constitutes cheese, what constitutes cheating etc.

It is helpful sometimes to know the opinion of others though.

[Cowboy_christo]

 Cheese as far as im concerned is something that make a encounter trivial like shield of balduran or make the game trivial( any mage with vecna become a frigging powerhouse). If at least getting the shield was slightly more difficult than amassing a few gold piece then id maybe change my mind slightly.



Also a bit like everyone, adding metagaming experience. This is why i use my trusted dice. If there is a rogue in my party he will be scouting and if there are none then i use my d20 to determine wether my character will completely ignore trap(that i as a player have knowledge of) and go on or decide its safer to send in a summon first.  Anyhow any party able to summon a skelly should have 1 at the head of the group. Skelly are such good trap trigger lol.