So i just picked up Alpha Protocol last week and i have to agree... it's a pretty awful game. Yet it does have one somewhat redeeming factor in the game that i hope they use in DA2 and that is the choosing of your factions.
We don't know much about the plot of DA2 other than it's about Hawke becoming the champion of Kirkwall. From what I have read on these forums and seen in the trailers, i have a sense that DA2 is going to be a slightly more politcal RPG. (Similiar to the choices the Warden commander made in Awakenings) With that being said, Alpha Protocol does a great job of having which faction you allie yourself with having strong ramifications on the out come of the game.
i sense that Kirkwall is going to be allying itself with other nations. Hopeful Hawke gets to pick which nation he allies with and which he does not. I think it would be interesting to see Kirkwall allie with Fereldan and Orlais... then see the ramifications of that decision. Maybe we could even ally with the Tevinter Imperium to take on the Quinari invasion. I just hope that the power of choice that was great in Alpha Protocol is used as a stepping point for DA2... and i hope they have better VO, gameplay, dialog, and just about everything else than Alpha Protocol
Alpha Protocol and DA2
Débuté par
MAD WHITE HAM
, déc. 02 2010 08:17
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#2
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 08:26
deuce985
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Terrible as AP is, it has the best choice system compared to any Bioware game. Bold statement I know but their choices shape the world and alter gameplay...
This is something Bioware needs to evolve their choice system to make it a masterpiece.
I actually had the pleasure of asking one of the lead devs on ME2 if they'd consider a choice system like that. Her answer was probably not, as they look for their own design. That is cool they want to innovate but you can't really deny AP has a better choice system in a lot of ways...
Of course, she said she didn't get around to playing it yet...so maybe she'll change her mind when she does. It pains me to say it but Bioware could learn from that game...at least that part.
This is something Bioware needs to evolve their choice system to make it a masterpiece.
I actually had the pleasure of asking one of the lead devs on ME2 if they'd consider a choice system like that. Her answer was probably not, as they look for their own design. That is cool they want to innovate but you can't really deny AP has a better choice system in a lot of ways...
Of course, she said she didn't get around to playing it yet...so maybe she'll change her mind when she does. It pains me to say it but Bioware could learn from that game...at least that part.
Modifié par deuce985, 02 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .
#3
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 08:32
upsettingshorts
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I didn't play this awful version of Alpha Protocol so many people have experienced. I played what was basically something like Deus Ex 2 - which, had it not been a disappointing sequel to one of the best games ever, would have been considered pretty decent - mixed with Mass Effect 1.
That being said, the part I liked about AP's story was that if you didn't ask the right questions, you didn't actually find out the truth of what was going on. You could still advance the story without all the facts, and that kind of organic failure struck me as brilliant design.
That being said, the part I liked about AP's story was that if you didn't ask the right questions, you didn't actually find out the truth of what was going on. You could still advance the story without all the facts, and that kind of organic failure struck me as brilliant design.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 08:32 .
#4
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 08:44
JrayM16
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I liked Alpha Protocol quite a bit, despite its many flaws, and I agree with Deuce in that AP had the best choice system of any recent RPG.
As to how it pertains to DA2, I like the idea of having a similar "alliance" (for lack of a beeter word) system as in AP. Especially if there was more fleshing out than AP had, which had quite a few consequences, but very few opportunities to really define where you stood in some cases.
As to how it pertains to DA2, I like the idea of having a similar "alliance" (for lack of a beeter word) system as in AP. Especially if there was more fleshing out than AP had, which had quite a few consequences, but very few opportunities to really define where you stood in some cases.
#5
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 08:56
Vylan Antagonist
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I enjoyed AP, although I apparently happened to play it in one of the only ways reported to be particularly enjoyable (Sneak and Pistol). They clearly did succeed at allowing the player to make a remarkable number of choices. Apparently the gameplay itself was hampered substantially by poor project management courtesy of one of Obsidian's financing founders. It's a shame, because I think there were many good aspects to the game and how it handled branching storyline paths, despite the levels themselves being mostly linear.
#6
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 08:59
upsettingshorts
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Also everyone at Obsidian who contributed to Scarlet Lake in any way needs to be commended. That has to be mentioned.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:00 .
#7
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:09
biomag
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AP does many many things right... I also played it with a X-Box Controller so I had no issues with controls.
The flaws were just balancing and graphics. Without the pistol skill some enemies become nightmares (all hail the Russian mob-god).
But the whole information gathering, choices, mission design and story were brilliant. Depending on what you do you can experience a completely different outcome... considering that the 6 origins in DA have a by far smaller impact on the story than most of the dialogs in AP its really disappointing. I hope DA 2 will take some of the good things AP had to offer and implement them (and I hope even more that someone makes an AP 2, I would love to continue after the last mission with my own network).
The flaws were just balancing and graphics. Without the pistol skill some enemies become nightmares (all hail the Russian mob-god).
But the whole information gathering, choices, mission design and story were brilliant. Depending on what you do you can experience a completely different outcome... considering that the 6 origins in DA have a by far smaller impact on the story than most of the dialogs in AP its really disappointing. I hope DA 2 will take some of the good things AP had to offer and implement them (and I hope even more that someone makes an AP 2, I would love to continue after the last mission with my own network).
#8
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:12
Maria Caliban
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
I didn't play this awful version of Alpha Protocol so many people have experienced.
That's a pity. You've missed out on a memorable PC gaming experience there.
#9
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:13
upsettingshorts
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Maria Caliban wrote...
That's a pity. You've missed out on a memorable PC gaming experience there.
But... I played it on PC. The obvious console-portness of the interface was pretty much my only issue with it. And while that kind of thing is definitely annoying while playing it, it doesn't really alter my overall opinion of the game.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:14 .
#10
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:14
Maria Caliban
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Upsettingshorts wrote...
But I played it on PC.
I assumed as much.
#11
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:14
upsettingshorts
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So it was bad on consoles...?
#12
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:20
Maria Caliban
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Er, no.
Shorts: I didn't play this awful version of Alpha Protocol so many people have experienced.
Maria: That's a pity. You've missed out on a memorable PC gaming experience there.
Well, it sounded clever when I wrote it.
Shorts: I didn't play this awful version of Alpha Protocol so many people have experienced.
Maria: That's a pity. You've missed out on a memorable PC gaming experience there.
Well, it sounded clever when I wrote it.
#13
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:20
highcastle
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I agree that AP has one of the most complex and meaningful choice systems around. And even better, it's something that could totally be implemented in Dragon Age II.
What made AP's choices work was the framed narrative. You're taken to specific moments in time while two characters tell a story. And what you do there affects the way the story is told in the current timeline. Sound familiar? Now, AP differs from DA2 in the sense that one of the "storytellers" is the PC. This means you have control over the way the story is told. We don't know how much will change in DA2 because both of the characters in the frame story are NPCs. But it would make sense for Varric's rendition of your tale to reflect the deeds of your PC.
The other thing AP did well was providing meaningful choices without backing down from their impact. I love Bioware, but there seems to be a lot of "third options" when it comes to the choices you can make. Redcliffe is the typical example with its Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, or Kill No One system. The first time I played through this scenario, I wasn't actually aware of the third option, so it became a defining moment of the game for me. I was truly moved. When I learned the truth, it cheapened the experience. Sometimes there needs to be a dark decision. In real life, you don't always get a choice that hurts no one. And for a game advertising itself as a dark fantasy, it should really live up to its name. Alpha Protocol presents you with several choices in which people will die no matter what you do. You can lessen the death toll, you can save as many people as possible, but you can't save everyone. It provides great role playing fodder. Will your character be consumed by his guilt? Will he vow to do better? Will he just shrug his shoulders and say he did what he had to do? These moments define a character, and AP is stronger for them. DA2 would do well to think about this.
What made AP's choices work was the framed narrative. You're taken to specific moments in time while two characters tell a story. And what you do there affects the way the story is told in the current timeline. Sound familiar? Now, AP differs from DA2 in the sense that one of the "storytellers" is the PC. This means you have control over the way the story is told. We don't know how much will change in DA2 because both of the characters in the frame story are NPCs. But it would make sense for Varric's rendition of your tale to reflect the deeds of your PC.
The other thing AP did well was providing meaningful choices without backing down from their impact. I love Bioware, but there seems to be a lot of "third options" when it comes to the choices you can make. Redcliffe is the typical example with its Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, or Kill No One system. The first time I played through this scenario, I wasn't actually aware of the third option, so it became a defining moment of the game for me. I was truly moved. When I learned the truth, it cheapened the experience. Sometimes there needs to be a dark decision. In real life, you don't always get a choice that hurts no one. And for a game advertising itself as a dark fantasy, it should really live up to its name. Alpha Protocol presents you with several choices in which people will die no matter what you do. You can lessen the death toll, you can save as many people as possible, but you can't save everyone. It provides great role playing fodder. Will your character be consumed by his guilt? Will he vow to do better? Will he just shrug his shoulders and say he did what he had to do? These moments define a character, and AP is stronger for them. DA2 would do well to think about this.
#14
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:22
RedRoo
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Not to promote a contemptible, shallow view point, but... after I saw the sneaking animation, I couldn't take this game seriously.
#15
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:24
Marionetten
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Indeed. It also rewarded you differently for taking different paths. You never felt like you made the wrong choice as much as a choice and this I believe to be of utmost important when making a game about choices. In Dragon Age: Origins you often got penalized for using diplomacy instead of brute force ( less experience, less loot and less satisfaction ) and this was just completely backasswards.highcastle wrote...
The other thing AP did well was providing meaningful choices without backing down from their impact. I love Bioware, but there seems to be a lot of "third options" when it comes to the choices you can make. Redcliffe is the typical example with its Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, or Kill No One system. The first time I played through this scenario, I wasn't actually aware of the third option, so it became a defining moment of the game for me. I was truly moved. When I learned the truth, it cheapened the experience. Sometimes there needs to be a dark decision. In real life, you don't always get a choice that hurts no one. And for a game advertising itself as a dark fantasy, it should really live up to its name. Alpha Protocol presents you with several choices in which people will die no matter what you do. You can lessen the death toll, you can save as many people as possible, but you can't save everyone. It provides great role playing fodder. Will your character be consumed by his guilt? Will he vow to do better? Will he just shrug his shoulders and say he did what he had to do? These moments define a character, and AP is stronger for them. DA2 would do well to think about this.
#16
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:24
highcastle
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RedRoo wrote...
Not to promote a contemptible, shallow view point, but... after I saw the sneaking animation, I couldn't take this game seriously.
Too bad. You missed out on a game that--while certainly not without its flaws--did something very unique and very well. All those games that promise your choices will matter, Alpha Protocol actually delivers. And throughout the game, too. You see reactions and consequences to your actions quite soon, and they can have a profound impact on your playthrough. It's possible to never encounter many characters, to never find out many key points in the central story, etc. There's a tremendous list of who can die and who can live. It's an interesting game.
#17
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:27
MAD WHITE HAM
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[quote]highcastle wrote...
. I love Bioware, but there seems to be a lot of "third options" when it comes to the choices you can make. Redcliffe is the typical example with its Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, or Kill No One system. The first time I played through this scenario, I wasn't actually aware of the third option, so it became a defining moment of the game for me. I was truly moved. When I learned the truth, it cheapened the experience. Sometimes there needs to be a dark decision.
:devil:Awakenings has some great choices, save amarthine or save virgil's keep... either way, someone is getting screwed:devil:
. I love Bioware, but there seems to be a lot of "third options" when it comes to the choices you can make. Redcliffe is the typical example with its Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, or Kill No One system. The first time I played through this scenario, I wasn't actually aware of the third option, so it became a defining moment of the game for me. I was truly moved. When I learned the truth, it cheapened the experience. Sometimes there needs to be a dark decision.
:devil:Awakenings has some great choices, save amarthine or save virgil's keep... either way, someone is getting screwed:devil:
Modifié par MAD WHITE HAM, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:28 .
#18
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:28
biomag
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@Choices: True. So far I am hugely disappointed with Bioware at both ME and DA. There is so seldom really a sacrifice in doing something, the consequences are either shallow or easy to prevent (Redcliff, Werewolfs, Rachni Queen)... Bioware please learn from others. Its just boring to always win thanks to fail proved decisions.
#19
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 09:34
Gavinthelocust
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I don't know why people hate alpha protocol, sure it was the buggiest game ever at release and the story is a wee bit cliche but the dialog system is innovative and once you learn how to control the wild horse controls it becomes extremely fun to play. It forced you to make quick decisions so you'd never get bored in a conversation and the plot had so many outcomes/options it made repeat playthroughs far more enjoyable. It's a worth while gem disguised as a piece of crap that I'd recommend to anybody. Just wait the needed ten hours for the fix patches to actually play the game.
#20
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 10:53
Iakus
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Yeah, Alpha Protocol is my personal RPG of the year. Every playthrough is a bit different depending on the conversation topics you choose, the order you do the missions, who you befriend, who you screw over, who you kill.
That's why I'm hopeful that DA 2 will not in fact, be "Dragon Effect" as some fear. The "in media res" and framed narative approach was done very well in AP. The whole "tone" aspect combined with the ME-style conversation system is not the same as AP's timed "conversation stances" but it looks like two different methods aimed at the same result. Finally, this new friendship/rivalry system means I don't have to say what what my companions want to hear just to stay in their good graces. Though I'd still be cautious around anyone who carries bleach with them...
If Bioware could take aspects of Alpha Protocol, improve them, and incorporate them into a game like Dragon Age...you wouldn't even have to push a button to make something awsome happen, just have a conversation!
That's why I'm hopeful that DA 2 will not in fact, be "Dragon Effect" as some fear. The "in media res" and framed narative approach was done very well in AP. The whole "tone" aspect combined with the ME-style conversation system is not the same as AP's timed "conversation stances" but it looks like two different methods aimed at the same result. Finally, this new friendship/rivalry system means I don't have to say what what my companions want to hear just to stay in their good graces. Though I'd still be cautious around anyone who carries bleach with them...
If Bioware could take aspects of Alpha Protocol, improve them, and incorporate them into a game like Dragon Age...you wouldn't even have to push a button to make something awsome happen, just have a conversation!
Modifié par iakus, 02 décembre 2010 - 10:55 .
#21
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:02
DarthCaine
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Alpha Protocol had lots of consequences at the expense of being a 20 hour long RPG and no character customization.deuce985 wrote...
Terrible as AP is, it has the best choice system compared to any Bioware game. Bold statement I know but their choices shape the world and alter gameplay...
This is something Bioware needs to evolve their choice system to make it a masterpiece.
I actually had the pleasure of asking one of the lead devs on ME2 if they'd consider a choice system like that. Her answer was probably not, as they look for their own design. That is cool they want to innovate but you can't really deny AP has a better choice system in a lot of ways...
Of course, she said she didn't get around to playing it yet...so maybe she'll change her mind when she does. It pains me to say it but Bioware could learn from that game...at least that part.
Would you prefer that for ME3? To have only Sheploo available (no Jennifer Hale) and for it to be extremly short?
I'm not even mentioning the unpolished buggy gameplay and crap graphics and animations.
Devs need to balance their budget, and not have idiot designers like Bugsidian's.
Modifié par DarthCaine, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:10 .
#22
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:12
upsettingshorts
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You don't have to assume a game be a carbon copy of another game when you suggest a feature or two from it would be worth implementing again. I like Age of Conan's combo system and would love to see it in other games, does that mean I want other games to become copies of Age of Conan in every way? Absolutely not. There are great things to take away from Alpha Protocol and they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
The way the consequences were implemented do not strike me as conflicting with the features of Mass Effect in the way you suggest, especially not Mass Effect 3 - as neither that game nor Alpha Protocol had to plan for a sequel. A mission path such as the one in Moscow - where it was possible to not discover the whole truth and quite literally miss a mission - could be implemented in Mass Effect 3 without necessarily causing the problems you're implying.
The way the consequences were implemented do not strike me as conflicting with the features of Mass Effect in the way you suggest, especially not Mass Effect 3 - as neither that game nor Alpha Protocol had to plan for a sequel. A mission path such as the one in Moscow - where it was possible to not discover the whole truth and quite literally miss a mission - could be implemented in Mass Effect 3 without necessarily causing the problems you're implying.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:13 .
#23
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:14
DarthCaine
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Actually no, devs did want a sequel before release. However, Alpha Protocol turned out to be a financial failure disliked by both critics and fans alike.Upsettingshorts wrote...
as neither that game nor Alpha Protocol had to plan for a sequel
I seriously doubt ME3 will have big consequences for your actions like Alpha Protocol or The Witcher. But I'd rather have less consequences than less playtime.
Modifié par DarthCaine, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:15 .
#24
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:15
upsettingshorts
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DarthCaine wrote...
Actually no, devs did want a sequel before release. However, Alpha Protocol turned out to be a financial failure disliked by both critics and fans alike
Was there an import save? And let's not turn this into a discussion over Alpha Protocol's merits as a complete game. We're talking about specific features.
DarthCaine wrote...
I seriously doubt ME3 will have big consequences for your actions like Alpha Protocol or The Witcher. But I'd rather have less consequences than less playtime.
More consequences means more replayability, which equals more playtime for me. I don't care how I end up with my hours of gameplay, as long as I enjoy them. 100 linear hours or 20 replayable, varied hours that I want to play five times are the same thing to me. But that's off topic.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 décembre 2010 - 11:17 .
#25
Posté 02 décembre 2010 - 11:17
DarthCaine
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You don't really need one. The Witcher doesn't have one, and TW2 will import your save. Or they could simply do it like like in KOTOR2.Upsettingshorts wrote...
Was there an import save?
That's the thing. Devs need to balance their budget. By having more consequences, all the other features were half implemented (see my earlier post)And let's not turn this into a discussion over Alpha Protocol's merits as a complete game. We're talking about specific features.
