61 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Sten would win

[KrimsonNekros]

One point i haven't noticed so far is people addressing the characters personalities. Namely the point that Morrigan is considerably more ruthless.  I think Leliana would honestly be holding back so she didn't hurt the mage, while Morrigan honestly wouldn't care i think, and might enjoy a chance to put an overly preachy sister in her place.  Definitely give Morrigan an edge in the fight.

GodWood wrote...

Sten would win

yes i can imaging him wading in a thumping them both if it didn't end soon enough just to get some peace and quiet

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I was thinking maxed out characters, and a more generic 'rogue vs mage: who would win?' scenario. I still think a smart rogue would beat a smart mage more often than not.

Have to disagree.  Mage all the way.  Have you ever fought Loghain as a mage?  Cone of Cold is almost all you need.  Add glyphs, horror/ sleep... not even to mention blood magic.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 décembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Johnny Chaos]

Morrigan usually tops damage in a party, i usually only bring Lel for buffs and lockpicking

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I was thinking maxed out characters, and a more generic 'rogue vs mage: who would win?' scenario. I still think a smart rogue would beat a smart mage more often than not.

Have to disagree.  Mage all the way.  Have you ever fought Loghain as a mage?  Cone of Cold is almost all you need.  Add glyphs, horror/ sleep... not even to mention blood magic.

Usually my duel with Loghain is with a melee rogue as well, and it takes a matter of seconds, even on nightmare.  Stealth, dirty fighting, poison blades, mark of death, riposte, dead.  It takes me a little longer with a mage, and resists can cause issues.

I think we do best with the characters we're the most comfortable with.  Mages are extremely powerful, rogues too, just in a different way.

If Leliana is an archer, though, stealth + arrow of slaying = game over as well. Hmmmm.  I suppose my money is on Lel!

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 décembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Maria13]

This thread strikes me as a "cavemen v astronauts" kind of thing...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Addai - No, never fought him as a mage. How long does it take, as a matter of interest? I can't say I timed my rogue, but I'm pretty sure it was over within seconds (ditto ejoslin).



Blood magic relies on being able to target the opponent, IIRC, so unless Leliana was stunned/frozen/whatever it'd be useless if she was stealthed. I'm not saying Morrigan *couldn't* win, just that stealth is very powerful and Morrigan would initially be relying on AoE to decloak Leliana--and if Leliana had Arrow of Slaying and was at maximum range (decreasing the odds of being targetted by any single AoE the further away she is), Morrigan wouldn't have much time at all to make that guesstimate before being hit.



(Forcefield might an interesting spell to use as protection in that case. And if Morrigan was an Arcane Warrior then I truly don't know how the fight would go down because I don't know enough about that spec. I've heard it's pretty powerful.)



Anyway, you clearly think mages are superior, and I clearly think a rogue would tend to have the upper hand in a one-on-one, so...



And if we toss the whole fight-to-the-death scenario and go into a hair-pulling contest without any real harm occuring, my money's still on Leliana. Morrigan never had any siblings, and Leliana knows how to fight dirty.

[ModerateOsprey]

IMO, Morrigan is probably the most powerful player controlled character in the game, so I think she would win.



The game, sort of, gives an opportunity to try this out. With careful play, this fight could be engineered in The Gauntlet.

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Addai - No, never fought him as a mage. How long does it take, as a matter of interest? I can't say I timed my rogue, but I'm pretty sure it was over within seconds (ditto ejoslin).

Blood magic relies on being able to target the opponent, IIRC, so unless Leliana was stunned/frozen/whatever it'd be useless if she was stealthed. I'm not saying Morrigan *couldn't* win, just that stealth is very powerful and Morrigan would initially be relying on AoE to decloak Leliana--and if Leliana had Arrow of Slaying and was at maximum range (decreasing the odds of being targetted by any single AoE the further away she is), Morrigan wouldn't have much time at all to make that guesstimate before being hit. 

(Forcefield might an interesting spell to use as protection in that case. And if Morrigan was an Arcane Warrior then I truly don't know how the fight would go down because I don't know enough about that spec. I've heard it's pretty powerful.)

Anyway, you clearly think mages are superior, and I clearly think a rogue would tend to have the upper hand in a one-on-one, so...

And if we toss the whole fight-to-the-death scenario and go into a hair-pulling contest without any real harm occuring, my money's still on Leliana. Morrigan never had any siblings, and Leliana knows how to fight dirty.

I play both rogues and mages.  No warriors in my repertoire, except for my first 2 characters (DW warriors) and a couple I haven't finished.  I know that rogues are extremely powerful, however, I'd still go with the mage if pushed to it.

Blood Wound is a large field- no target necessary.  Even if stealthed, a duel opponent would be caught in it for sure.  Rogues tend to have low con, so Blood Wound would be deadly for them.  But that is only one super-deadly combination a mage could throw at a single opponent.  Mind Blast plus Cone of Cold would be another.  Glyph of Paralysis followed up with attack spells at one's leisure.  Glyph of Repulsion and the same (if attacked by a melee character).  Force Field, that could be used either offensively or defensively while your attack spells recharge, but that would be risky and like shapeshifter, would be a last resort, but still a strategy you could use.  Crushing Prison.  Any combination of these and the fight is over without the rogue getting in one hit.

On my attack mages, Loghain doesn't even get in a hit, even without Blood Wound.  That happens on rogues sometimes, too, but only if she gets a stun quickly and can follow up with a paralyze via a rune.  That would have to be the case for a rogue vs. mage duel, as well.  The rogue would have to get the drop on the mage and have a bit of luck.  It could happen, but I'd rather put my money on the more powerful skills.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

'Could' happen? Happened all the time for me XD Stealth, backstab+stun, DPS while stun lasts, Dirty Fighting stun when it wears off, more DPS, Loghain's dead without getting one swing in. No runes required, no luck required, just timing when to use the next stun. You said you found stealth to be useless (IIRC?) so I wonder if you were using it to its maximum potential.



A (non AI) mage would be a greater threat than Loghain, but like I said for a stealthed rogue the mage would initially rely on AoE, dropped in the right place, to decloak the rogue. If the rogue was ranged rather than melee, with Arrow of Slaying, the mage might be in trouble. AoS has a range of 'very long', so the rogue would be able to keep well away from the range of most? all? of the mage's spells.

[Wereparrot]

The Warden; because the attacks are so slow he/she'd just step in and say, 'Enough!'

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

'Could' happen? Happened all the time for me XD Stealth, backstab+stun, DPS while stun lasts, Dirty Fighting stun when it wears off, more DPS, Loghain's dead without getting one swing in. No runes required, no luck required, just timing when to use the next stun. You said you found stealth to be useless (IIRC?) so I wonder if you were using it to its maximum potential.

In a fair duel, the participants would have to be facing each other.  Even if they couldn't get a targeted attack it would not a problem to drop an AoE attack on the surrounding area.   Not many duels are fought in a huge area.

And like I said, if the mage gets the first stun and has a setup even like Morrigan's basic default setup, the fight is over.  We're not even talking an arcane warrior who would bring additional defense and resistances.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I wasn't aware we were putting Morrigan and Leliana in a 'fair duel'. If you're arguing that scenario, then I agree the mage with spell setups you've been proposing would win.

Edit: Although I see you were assuming that from your very first post, now that I look back. I was always going by the OP's "Catfight: Who would win in a fight if the Morrigan/ Leliana fight got physical", which doesn't define rules, hence I was assuming it wasn't a fair/formal duel right from the beginning.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 décembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I wasn't aware we were putting Morrigan and Leliana in a 'fair duel'. If you're arguing that scenario, then I agree the mage with spell setups you've been proposing would win.

Edit: Although I see you were assuming that from your very first post, now that I look back. I was always going by the OP's "Catfight: Who would win in a fight if the Morrigan/ Leliana fight got physical", which doesn't define rules, hence I was assuming it wasn't a fair/formal duel right from the beginning.

Ah I see.  Well that explains some of the discrepancy.    I do send my rogues in stealthed to take care of mages in a dirty fight.  You're almost guaranteed a first stun in that circumstance, and that makes all the difference.

[Corker]

No matter who is victorious, I'm pretty sure Zevran wins.

[naledgeborn]

Morrigan.

[CalJones]

In a straight up fight with all their powers at their disposal? Morrigan could shut Leli down pretty quickly.
Put them in lingerie and a paddling pool full of lime jelly (US: jello): it's close but I think Leli - she's stronger and more agile. Just depends if Morrigan fought dirty and used her claws (or shapeshifted into a bear).

Modifié par CalJones, 04 décembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[Johnny Chaos]

CalJones wrote...

In a straight up fight with all their powers at their disposal? Morrigan could shut Leli down pretty quickly.
Put them in lingerie and a paddling pool full of lime jelly (US: jello): it's close but I think Leli - she's stronger and more agile. Just depends if Morrigan fought dirty and used her claws (or shapeshifted into a bear).

excuse me i'll be back in a second..............

[Johnny Chaos]

I can tell Leliana would be pulling alot of hair

[Ollymandias]

Stealth + Riposte + Dirty Fighting = one dead mage.



Poor Morrigan.



If Morrigan gets the first strike in with Crushing Prison or Paralysis, then some heavy damage lightning spells then she'd win easy though.



I think it comes down to whoever strikes first.

The Water God said...

I can picture them tackling each other to the ground, rolling around in the mud, and then tearing at each others clothes while the male party members all watched.

But I like your version better.

[Ashaman X]

Purely physical fight, with no magic or bard skills attached, I give the edge to Leliana. She's had to learn how to fight unarmed no doubt, and I think she's learnt plenty of clean fighting tricks to use. Also, I tend to picture her as stronger than Morrigan, but not by much. Morrigan always seemed more lithe and slender to me, she never struck me as very strong physically.



Throw in magic and bard skills however, and things become more interesting. I think things would actually be pretty even, as every class has a way to balance the other classes. I think in the end the fight would be stopped long before either lady could be declared a winner.

[DWSmiley]

A rogue can reach 100% spell resistance with sufficient dweomer runes, which would make it no contest.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And Morrigan can shapeshift into more powerful forms, especially stinging swarm, so no contest there either.