94 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

ME1 and ME2 have vastly different inventory systems. ME1's breadth was certainly its greatest strength, but also its greatest weakness. Getting close to a dozen worthless items per fight added up very quickly and made the system clunky and burdensome. Now, I'm not here to suggest ME2's method is better, as it also suffers in that its greatest strength, brevity, killed a lot of potential for depth.

The change was necessary, I think. They needed to start from scratch so they could look at it from another perspective. I believe that with ME2's system they discovered the base for a truly stunning inventory system for ME3. Perfection is just a few tweaks away:

• More weapons. Each category having 3-5 weapons seems fair. And make each a different option with different strengths/drawbacks. They seemed to have been trying for that, but it just doesn't work in some instances. The Katana shotgun, for instance, has no redeeming qualities compared to the other shotguns. They all outstrip it entirely.
• More armor pieces. A lot more. There simply aren't enough, even with the added DLC options, to sate an RPGer's lust for "phat loot."
• Better armor pieces, too. These need to have a larger impact on the game than making Shepard look cool. Buff the buffs, as it were. Anything less than a 10% boost to most values is nigh unto worthless. The Strength Boost Pads and the Aegis Pack's armor pieces are good examples. If a piece of armor only provides one buff, it should be significant, or it should provide multiple lesser buffs.
• Each armor piece should have some defensive stats. Some pieces could have raw damage reduction, others should boost Shield/Barrier, and some pieces should provide damage reduction solely for Shield/Barriers, similar to the Shield Hardening research in ME2. Each armor piece could have a modest bonus to one of these stats in addition to its main buff, and some pieces could simply have a larger defensive buff as their only bonuses for players who want to focus on taking less damage.
• More weapon and armor research, but make the old ones much more powerful. To balance this, make research something that needs to be "equipped," with only a limited number of slots (we'll say three, for the sake of argument) in which to equip them. Each damage upgrade (20%, 35%, 50%, let's say) could take up a slot, forcing you to spend all your slots if you want that juicy 50% damage boost. Other options would have to be made just as tantalizing, however, like perhaps a spread decrease for shotguns, or a fire rate increase for assault rifles.
• Alternatively, research could remain largely the same, to replicate a growth in raw damage output without giving us a billion weapons, but add equippable mods as well.
  
• Companions should have modular armor like Shepard's, both mechanically and in apppearance. Every piece Shepard finds should be a new piece for the entire squad. Failing that, just make sure they're all wearing something sealed and protective while in a mission zone.
• Omni-tools and amps could come back in some form. They should be similar to guns in that we only ever find a particular unit once. There would probably only need to be about three of each, one for cooldown, one for duration, and one for damage/newtons. These would provide bonuses in addition to tech/biotic research.

 This list is being edited with suggestions that suit it as the thread continues.
[*]We need some way to access our inventory, even if only in a limited way, from the menu of the game. At the very least, we should be able to change weapon mods mid-mission.
[*]A button that toggles whether or not our helmet is visible. You still get the statistical benefit of the helmet without the potential embarassment of splashing batarian liquor all over said helmet.

Modifié par Schneidend, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[ScooterPie88]

Some of your ideas are good. My favorite part of this is that you acknowledge that ME2 has an inventory (something I have long advocated). Most people just **** about ME2 not having an inventory and are too blind to see that it is in fact there jsut not in the traditional way.

[Mr. California]

I agree. bring the limited number of slots back

[wizardryforever]

I agree with this for the most part.  The only thing I have trouble getting behind is asking for a lot more weapons but then wanting them all to be unique and distinctive.  It's very difficult to have it both ways and still have a relatively simple combat scheme.  I'd say have no more than five weapons per class, as in you start with one, find a couple more, purchase a fourth, and have to choose an uber weapon for a possible fifth (like with the Collector ship weapons).  However go beyond that and it is quite difficult to make them different and not become obsolete.  Also no uber DLC weapons at the start.  If you're going to add uber DLC weapons, make us have to buy them in game or give us a mission in which we find them (like with the Locust).

Kudos to you for recognizing that ME2 actually does have an inventory, as well.

[The Spamming Troll]

even tho theres not alot of common sci fi weaponry i still like the weapons offered in ME2. theres not much more variety you can add to the weapons in ME2, other then adding certain mod slots like laser sights or extended mags. i totally agree about variety in armors. light armor like jacobs or liaras would be great. the variety of armor in ME2 is almost nonexistent statistically and visually. you could even install armor mods too. remember amni tools and biotic amps? those are some familiar things that could add to the somewhat minimalistic inventory ME2 already offers.

[kregano]

Schneidend wrote...

# More weapon and armor research, but make the old ones much more powerful. To balance this, make research something that needs to be "equipped," with only a limited number of slots (we'll say three, for the sake of argument) in which to equip them. Each damage upgrade (20%, 35%, 50%, let's say) could take up a slot, forcing you to spend all your slots if you want that juicy 50% damage boost. Other options would have to be made just as tantalizing, however, like perhaps a spread decrease for shotguns, or a fire rate increase for assault rifles.

I think this would work better with various mods being what you upgrade and the limited slots being used for the mods. Each mod would have some sort of aesthetic effect on the weapon in question as well as drawbacks (damage mods decrease the amount of rounds you can fire before you have to eject your clip, etc...). That way there would be more customization options available for the guns without creating overpowered combos like the double Scram Rail X with Cryo Rounds AR you could put together in ME1 and never overheat.

[Schneidend]

@wizardryforever: I agree. I was more asking for "a lot more" weapons total. Five is a good number per category, and I have edited the list to reflect as much. I'd probably go weak in the knees if ME3 launched with fives shotguns, five assault rifles, and five sniper rifles already available in-game. Mmmmm...



@kregano: Whoa, let's not get crazy. Aesthetic changes from weapon mods are cool, but create unnecessary work for the devs. I'm mostly after game mechanics goodies, here. Also, I'm not a huge fan of drawbacks being tied to bonuses. I'd prefer if the weapon itself had a drawback that made it more unique, but the mods should generally just be bonuses, either to make up for the weapon's drawback and optimize it, or capitalize on its strength. And, while I agree that Mass Effect 1 had overpowered mod combos, they pretty much took care of the never-overheating weapons by simply giving us the super neato keen thermal clip system.



*Enthusiastically palm slaps the side of his Revenant.* =D

[Kaptain Darkfist]

I like your ideas.



I for one would like to see some more unique weapons. By unique, I don't mean differing by what said weapon is effective against, just some out there gun. Possibly a magnetically propelled crossbow type weapon? There has to be some out-of-the-way group that would make something like that. That would be neat to me.



Also, I would like to see the inventory system resemble ME1 to some degree. ME2's system was not bad, but I like to be able to equip my character on the fly.

[Schneidend]

The heavy weapons are already pretty unique as it is. One shoots bolts of lightning, REAL LIGHTNING.



I prefer Mass Effect's strictly military style in regards to its small arms.

No dual-wielding, firing from the hip is extremely ineffective, etc.

[kregano]

Schneidend wrote...
@kregano: Whoa, let's not get crazy. Aesthetic changes from weapon mods are cool, but create unnecessary work for the devs. I'm mostly after game mechanics goodies, here. Also, I'm not a huge fan of drawbacks being tied to bonuses. I'd prefer if the weapon itself had a drawback that made it more unique, but the mods should generally just be bonuses, either to make up for the weapon's drawback and optimize it, or capitalize on its strength. And, while I agree that Mass Effect 1 had overpowered mod combos, they pretty much took care of the never-overheating weapons by simply giving us the super neato keen thermal clip system.

*Enthusiastically palm slaps the side of his Revenant.* =D

Well, I agree with the clips did manage to eliminate the overpowered weapons, but I don't think that having pieces of the guns be swappable is that much more of a challenge than making the armor customizable throughout the game, including the cutscenes. Hell, the guns are already designed in modules to facilitate the compression/expansion animations, so it shouldn't be that hard to design cool new pieces that fit into the design in both modes.

[Kaptain Darkfist]

I like your ideas.



I for one would like to see some more unique weapons. By unique, I don't mean differing by what said weapon is effective against, just some out there gun. Possibly a magnetically propelled crossbow type weapon? There has to be some out-of-the-way group that would make something like that. That would be neat to me.



Also, I would like to see the inventory system resemble ME1 to some degree. ME2's system was not bad, but I like to be able to equip my character on the fly.

[hecksard]

As a first priority for expanding the armour options I would say allow us to equip the team with diffferent armour items also, and make those actually count toward their stats. This was unbelievably immersion-breaking in ME2. It should be about more than doll dressing and fanservice vanity DLC content.

Then I'd like to be able to swap items between squad members on the fly, including any mods, medi-gel (which they should apply themselves), etc.  This is a no-brainer for me: strategising should involve buffing the team in as much detail as Shep, and let them be packhorses to carry stuff that I might need later, like my helmet. Also get those lazy arses working on some research projects while they're lolling about on the ship: say X on-ship days with characters Y & Z results in experimental item A (a la Investment Opportunities in LotSB).

Removing ammo powers (illogical on so many levels) would go a long way to forcing a rethink of the inventory, I'm guessing, since once you re-establish ammo as a property of the weapon rather than a property of the character you're back to first principles.

[Schneidend]

@kregano: "Shouldn't be that hard" is a dangerous phrase when it comes to game development. Like I said, this thread is more about the mechanical stuff. As long as the guns look cool to begin with, like they did in ME2, I'll live. Mods changing aesthetics can go totally wrong, too. All the barrel modifications for shotguns in Alpha Protocol inexplicably tacked on a giant, hideous CO2 tank or something, for instance.



@hecksard: Definitely agree on companion armor options. Every piece of armor Shepard acquires needs an equivalent for each squadmate. Obviously, the human skeleton squaddies can use the same pieces minus the N7 logos. That's going on the list.



Mechanically, I like the way ammo powers work in ME2, so that's where we diverge. Doesn't make any less sense than medi-gel and revival being a character power in the first game.

[Terror_K]

I have to say, while I generally dislike ME2's system for the most part, I do agree that with those changes it would be pretty damn good and improve it a lot. On top of that, I'd like to suggest the following:-



* Making armour actually act like armour again and actually having defensive attributes. As it stands, it doesn't even have basic damage reduction.



* The research/upgrade system needs a big overhaul to work. The basic concept is fine, but it needs some trade-offs instead of being a simple "research and upgrade everything without drawbacks to God-mod every item you have." I personally think it should research mods that you have to pick and choose rather than upgrades that just keep stacking unlimitedly. It's not customisation when you can upgrade everything just like everybody else who plays the game can without any real choice. How many people are honestly not going to upgrade everything to the max when there's nothing to stop them after all?



* I'd like omni-tools and biotic amps back in some form.



* While squaddies don't necessarily need to have customisable armour/clothing, they do need proper protection and armour for combat and hazardous environments. ME2's pyjama combat was an immersion-breaking and logic-defying mess in what was mostly otherwise a fairly serious sci-fi IP and setting (if one ignores the whole space magic angle of eezo that is).

[Vena_86]

Terror_K wrote...
...
* The research/upgrade system needs a big overhaul to work. The basic concept is fine, but it needs some trade-offs instead of being a simple "research and upgrade everything without drawbacks to God-mod every item you have." I personally think it should research mods that you have to pick and choose rather than upgrades that just keep stacking unlimitedly. It's not customisation when you can upgrade everything just like everybody else who plays the game can without any real choice. How many people are honestly not going to upgrade everything to the max when there's nothing to stop them after all?
...

IMO there should simply be a combination of mods (with strengths and drawbacks) and linear upgrades. The linear, universal upgrades, ME2 style, would provide the feeling of progress without the need of picking up many levels of the same weapon. The mods however, which there are some good suggestions floating arround for, would bring in the element of customization.

So in short, upgrades could stay, but mods with pros and cons need to be added.

[Terror_K]

Vena_86 wrote...

IMO there should simply be a combination of mods (with strengths and drawbacks) and linear upgrades. The linear, universal upgrades, ME2 style, would provide the feeling of progress without the need of picking up many levels of the same weapon. The mods however, which there are some good suggestions floating arround for, would bring in the element of customization.

So in short, upgrades could stay, but mods with pros and cons need to be added.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel too actually. For example, we have more linear upgrades to basically upgrade the weapons overall. So instead of having Mark I to Mark X of a weapon, you simply upgrade it (maybe not that many levels, but that's just an example... ME2 kind of had levels 1 to 5/6 so that's already kind of in place.)

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

hecksard wrote...

As a first priority for expanding the armour options I would say allow us to equip the team with diffferent armour items also, and make those actually count toward their stats. This was unbelievably immersion-breaking in ME2. It should be about more than doll dressing and fanservice vanity DLC content.

Then I'd like to be able to swap items between squad members on the fly, including any mods, medi-gel (which they should apply themselves), etc.  This is a no-brainer for me: strategising should involve buffing the team in as much detail as Shep, and let them be packhorses to carry stuff that I might need later, like my helmet. Also get those lazy arses working on some research projects while they're lolling about on the ship: say X on-ship days with characters Y & Z results in experimental item A (a la Investment Opportunities in LotSB).

Removing ammo powers (illogical on so many levels) would go a long way to forcing a rethink of the inventory, I'm guessing, since once you re-establish ammo as a property of the weapon rather than a property of the character you're back to first principles.

And people wonder why some people find the talk of 'immersion breaking' funny, sorry but you just proved a priime example of people talking about immersion breaking and yet wanting something that would be 'immersion breaking'.

You talk of the loyalty/DLC outfits for squadmates as being 'immersion breaking' and yet have the nerve to say that you should be able to swap Armor on the fly... trying your best to state this is possible by proclaiming your squadmates are packhorses.

Yes because Shepard's team carries an armor box around with them everywhere right?

But fear not, I have a cunning suggestion (which I did actually suggest just after ME2 came out) and it is a far less immersion-breaking idea.

We have spots where we can change guns in missions, simple have it so these 'lockers' also have armor too.

This doesn't just work for combat though, oh, no, no no.... modern day clubs have 'Cloakrooms' right for hanging coats and what not in. So why not have it so bars/clubs on HUB places and stations have a 'armor' container too. Thus negating the silly scene of Shepard drinking with their helmet on and not looking silly dancing in a night club in full combat gear.

Much better, eh?

Whilst I do like the idea of weapon upgrades coming back, the only thing I would hope is that they are not so 'godlike' as they could potentially be in ME.

Following on from that whilst apart from right at the start I rarely used any of the armor 'parts' that had a 5% bonus, I actually think if we pushed it more than 10% per piece, you could end up with something godlike if there was the potential for each armor piece to have a similar value for that particular bonus. I know there are the strength boost pads that boost melee damage by 25% but IIRC they are the only item we have for that (not sure if the more recent gear added a bonus to melee?). Imagine if you had 4 more to cover the other parts of the body... Shep's melee strength just leapt up by 125% hell we'd be almost like Jack in that cut-scene when she wrecks 2 YMIR mechs

As for squadmates in armor, I agree with Terror_K that the only thing I want to see really for that is that they have some sort of more appropriate 'hazardous terrain/location' outfit. The fact that Shep visors up (if not wearing a full facial helm) should mean that they are fully suited up too, not just a mask over their nose/mouth and no other 'skin' open to the elements.

[Schneidend]

@Terror & Vena: Good stuff. The list has been amended with your suggestions as an alternative system.



@Ulrich: I'm not really going to take a stand on armor/weapon lockers. The game would benefit from the presence of armor lockers in mission zones, but that's not really something mechanical. I made an exception for squaddies wearing something more space marine-like aesthetically since that's one of the biggest complaints I see on these boards.

But, yes, Shepard being able to stack certain kinds of bonuses is exactly why there needs to be more armor options. Optimizing a particular stat or form of attack is a hallmark of RPG's, one that ME1 touched on and ME2 sorely missed.

[mattylee10]

Some interesting ideas floating around. Hopefully we should be able to keep all current kit when switching from ME2 to ME3, would cut down on the need for new weapons being developed. Do agree with new dlc kit being tied to a mission similar to the locust - just makes more sense.

More armour pieces and ability to armour your squaddies is an absolute must, armour pieces providing damage resistance or an armour stat would also be nice (if random merc bosses have actual in game armour stats then why not a Spectre?)

Armour and weapon mods would also be nice, perhaps in a similar (but less complicated ) system to army of two, being able to replace barrel, stock etc and add sights, front grips and blingy paint schemes. Some sort of visible change on the weapon would also be preferable.

[hecksard]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

hecksard wrote...

As a first priority for expanding the armour options I would say allow us to equip the team with diffferent armour items also, and make those actually count toward their stats. This was unbelievably immersion-breaking in ME2. It should be about more than doll dressing and fanservice vanity DLC content.

Then I'd like to be able to swap items between squad members on the fly, including any mods, medi-gel (which they should apply themselves), etc.  This is a no-brainer for me: strategising should involve buffing the team in as much detail as Shep, and let them be packhorses to carry stuff that I might need later, like my helmet. Also get those lazy arses working on some research projects while they're lolling about on the ship: say X on-ship days with characters Y & Z results in experimental item A (a la Investment Opportunities in LotSB).

Removing ammo powers (illogical on so many levels) would go a long way to forcing a rethink of the inventory, I'm guessing, since once you re-establish ammo as a property of the weapon rather than a property of the character you're back to first principles.

And people wonder why some people find the talk of 'immersion breaking' funny, sorry but you just proved a priime example of people talking about immersion breaking and yet wanting something that would be 'immersion breaking'.

You talk of the loyalty/DLC outfits for squadmates as being 'immersion breaking' and yet have the nerve to say that you should be able to swap Armor on the fly... trying your best to state this is possible by proclaiming your squadmates are packhorses.

Yes because Shepard's team carries an armor box around with them everywhere right?
...

 

Nope because I wasn't talking about armour in that case, was that not clear? That would of course be stupid.  I meant mods, med-gels, weapons, etc. The squad mates should be able to carry stuff (up to their logical capacity) that I could swap out with them, e.g. a heavy weapon each or another shotgun type. Krogans should be able to carry more than half dressed women, another reason to choose squad mates carefully etc. the helmet was a joke This is a common enough mechanic in other RPGs.

I don't even know what to say about the magical wardrobes or lockers as I have no idea how they work. Teleportation?  Armour ATMs?  If ever there were as an example of an in-game device designed solely to dig the developers out of a logical hole that they needlessly put themselves in, then surely this is it.

Modifié par hecksard, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:16 .

[hecksard]

double post

Modifié par hecksard, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:16 .

[SOG TOUGH]

Call of Duty multiplayer has a better inventory system than Mass Effect 2.

[Schneidend]

Cool lack of constructive criticism, bro.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

hecksard wrote...

I don't even know what to say about the magical wardrobes or lockers as I have no idea how they work. Teleportation?  Armour ATMs?  If ever there were as an example of an in-game device designed solely to dig the developers out of a logical hole that they needlessly put themselves in, then surely this is it.

This alone is worthy of an Epic Win tag.

A limited inventory (one that does not include armor or anything unreasonable) is much less immersion-breaking than finding lockers on a Collector ship that happen to hold the same gun collection you have.

I don't think the devs scrapped inventory because it "broke immersion" (something that's hardly justifiable), but if they did, they sure screwed it up with those random lockers.

[hecksard]

Worse in some ways was that these weapon lockers appeared only shortly after you found a new weapon for no other apparent in-game reason. Maybe a system of waypoints might have worked, i.e. the idea being that you've cleared a path up to a certain stage, so it's safe to ferry equipment or squad mates back and forth at those points - but even that's a stretch.

Modifié par hecksard, 04 décembre 2010 - 03:32 .