94 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

In short-



ME2 had inventory? Cause I didn't see it.

[SOG TOUGH]

Schneidend wrote...

Cool lack of constructive criticism, bro.

What I mean is, you can consider Call of Duty multiplayer (CoD4 and onwards) to have a more traditional inventory system than ME2's.

[slimgrin]

Neither did I, at least not away from the Normandy.

[WSPro17]

I'm not sure that I miss the inventory anymore. I played ME1 a month ago, after playing ME2 for nearly a year, and it was weird to have an inventory. I had grown so used to not having one, that I was already off of the Citadel before remembering it was there. I'm not against having it, please don't think that is what I am saying it. I just don't really miss it.

Modifié par WSPro17, 04 décembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[wizardryforever]

hecksard wrote...
I don't even know what to say about the magical wardrobes or lockers as I have no idea how they work. Teleportation?  Armour ATMs?  If ever there were as an example of an in-game device designed solely to dig the developers out of a logical hole that they needlessly put themselves in, then surely this is it.

I believe this is explained somewhere (codex?).  The lockers use minifacturing technology, the same tech that lets omni-tools interface with anything.  You put in a schematic, the locker assembles the weapon, and you get a duplicate.  This is why you can equip the whole team with Kassa Locusts, despite the fact that only two are to be found that can use heat clips (in Hock's vault).  Using this logic, there's nothing stopping them from putting armor through the same process.  Couple that with customizable squad armor, and you can have the whole squad in Blood Dragon Armor.

[wizardryforever]

LPPrince wrote...

In short-

ME2 had inventory? Cause I didn't see it.

You had inventory, you just didn't carry it all around with you like a pack mule.  Who really can carry 15 sniper rifles, 10 assault rifles, 6 shotguns, 12 pistols, 11 suits of armor, and mods for everything under the sun?  How much sense does that make?  Amusingly enough, the people who want the pack mule inventory back are the same ones who whine about immersion, and how things that improve gameplay break their immersion.

ME2 has an inventory, you just don't carry anything other than one weapon of each type you can use, a heavy weapon, an omni-tool, the armor you're currently wearing, and medigel.  Thermal clips are carried within the gun itself (except the ones in the off-hand ammo pack).  Everything else is on the Normandy, which actually has the room.  That's much more realistic.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 04 décembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[hecksard]

wizardryforever wrote...

hecksard wrote...
I don't even know what to say about the magical wardrobes or lockers as I have no idea how they work. Teleportation?  Armour ATMs?  If ever there were as an example of an in-game device designed solely to dig the developers out of a logical hole that they needlessly put themselves in, then surely this is it.

I believe this is explained somewhere (codex?).  The lockers use minifacturing technology, the same tech that lets omni-tools interface with anything.  You put in a schematic, the locker assembles the weapon, and you get a duplicate.  This is why you can equip the whole team with Kassa Locusts, despite the fact that only two are to be found that can use heat clips (in Hock's vault).  Using this logic, there's nothing stopping them from putting armor through the same process.  Couple that with customizable squad armor, and you can have the whole squad in Blood Dragon Armor.

Maybe I haven't been reading closely enough, lol.  How does that work with weapons like the Revenant that are "protected against replication by sophisticated Fabrication Rights Management (FRM) technology"? Where do the raw materials come from (when away from the Normandy)?

wizardryforever wrote...
Amusingly enough, the people who want
the pack mule inventory back are the same ones who whine about
immersion, and how things that improve gameplay break their immersion.

Edit: never mind, I think this was about something else.

Modifié par hecksard, 04 décembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[wizardryforever]

hecksard wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

hecksard wrote...
I don't even know what to say about the magical wardrobes or lockers as I have no idea how they work. Teleportation?  Armour ATMs?  If ever there were as an example of an in-game device designed solely to dig the developers out of a logical hole that they needlessly put themselves in, then surely this is it.

I believe this is explained somewhere (codex?).  The lockers use minifacturing technology, the same tech that lets omni-tools interface with anything.  You put in a schematic, the locker assembles the weapon, and you get a duplicate.  This is why you can equip the whole team with Kassa Locusts, despite the fact that only two are to be found that can use heat clips (in Hock's vault).  Using this logic, there's nothing stopping them from putting armor through the same process.  Couple that with customizable squad armor, and you can have the whole squad in Blood Dragon Armor.

Maybe I haven't been reading closely enough, lol.  How does that work with weapons like the Revenant that are "protected against replication by sophisticated Fabrication Rights Management (FRM) technology"? Where do the raw materials come from (when away from the Normandy)?

I'm not sure about the "protected" weapons, but if I had to guess, I'd say that Shepard has a way to hack the locker to make the weapon anyway.  I don't know, maybe Bioware thought that no one would ever leave their Collector ship weapon behind, and wouldn't have to explain how Shepard gets others.  Or maybe the lockers themselves disregard Council law (they're in merc bases and such)? 

As for the raw materials, I believe that's the main thing that is actually in the lockers.  Part of it is the minifacturing suite, and the other part is material storage.

And I wasn't aiming my pack mule inventory comment at anyone in this thread.  I guess I should have specified that.  I have seen people clamoring for the inventory in one thread, and in another, whining about how thermal clips break their immersion (or Shepard's regenerating health, or the mission complete screens).

Modifié par wizardryforever, 04 décembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[hecksard]

Gotcha, my misunderstanding. ;-)

[LPPrince]

To be honest, I want loot back. And an inventory available at all times, to change armor, weapons, or whatever have you.



I just want it a lot CLEANER and a whole lot EASIER to use than ME1's system.



ME2's? I refuse to call that inventory.

[Terror_K]

wizardryforever wrote...

You had inventory, you just didn't carry it all around with you like a pack mule.  Who really can carry 15 sniper rifles, 10 assault rifles, 6 shotguns, 12 pistols, 11 suits of armor, and mods for everything under the sun?  How much sense does that make?  Amusingly enough, the people who want the pack mule inventory back are the same ones who whine about immersion, and how things that improve gameplay break their immersion.

ME2 has an inventory, you just don't carry anything other than one weapon of each type you can use, a heavy weapon, an omni-tool, the armor you're currently wearing, and medigel.  Thermal clips are carried within the gun itself (except the ones in the off-hand ammo pack).  Everything else is on the Normandy, which actually has the room.  That's much more realistic.

The thing is, those of us that had no problem with it were and also complain about a lack of immersion are also able to seperate purely gameplay mechanics from narrative/storytelling ones.

The game never directly refers to Shepard actually carrying around all that gear in-story, just like it never refers to Shepard gaining XP, leveling up and gaining skill points, going from pathetic to God in the space of a few months, etc. These elements are supposed to purely be gameplay ones and you're never actually supposed to believe that Shepard is really doing these things because they're purely behind the scenes and the narrative doesn't break the forth wall and refer to them.

ME2 on the other hand has plot inconsistencies and holes, introduced the thermal clip system with is so completely mind-numbingly stupid and nonsensical words can't do it justice and things like squaddies that run around in their pyjamas all the time and can get the full benefits of armour, including kinetic shields and medi-gel dispensers, not to mention protection from extreme temperatures, gasses, pressure, gravity, etc. with as little as a breathing mask and some nipple-straps and it's right there in your face and can't be ignored. It doesn't help that the game constantly pops up things like loading screens with little tips and "Mission Complete" screens to pull one out of the game, not to mention those large update banners that take up almost the entire bottom right quarter of the screen.

So, despite the so-called "efforts" of the dev team to apparently make ME2 a more immersive game and have less stuff getting in the way, it is in fact a far sloppier and more obvious and less immersive game than the original was.

Modifié par Terror_K, 04 décembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[lazuli]

Schneidend wrote...[*]More weapons. Each category having 5 weapons seems fair.
And make each a different option with different strengths/drawbacks.
They seemed to have been trying for that, but it just doesn't work in
some instances. The Katana shotgun, for instance, has no redeeming
qualities compared to the other shotguns. They all outstrip it entirely.

While I would certainly welcome more weapons, I want to point out that the Katana is not completely outstripped by the other shotguns.  In some situations (Vanguard + console + intimately close combat), the tight spread that gives the Eviscerator its range advantage can be a liability.  In these situations, the Katana, with its reduced range and wider spread, may be more effective.  The Katana has decent damage and a respectable spray.  I like to think of it as being a healthy halfway point between the Eviscerator and the Scimitar.

But to get back on topic, I would also welcome more armor options.  It will be interesting to see how the inventory evolves for ME3.

Modifié par lazuli, 04 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[hecksard]

@Terror_K

Lots of good points, and I do like to read a good rant, especially if it's well-written. I guess we make our own internal justifications for those game mechanics we regard as non-immersion breaking even if they don't stand up to logical scrutiny, like bottomless inventories.  I sometimes vaguely think of squaddies in ME1 being sent back to fetch stuff for instance, and the inventory screen just being a fast travel  interface for that, but mostly I don't think about it, or ask too many questions about how medigel is being magically teleported around the battlefield and the like.  Suspension of disbelief at this level is quite important, obviously.

But like you lots of things in ME2 really jarred for me nonetheless. On reflection, I think what put me off the new inventory system from the start was the feeling that it was serving needs outside of the game, particuarly DLC and promotional items.  Just knowing that there were Shepards running around somewhere wearing something sponsored by Dr Pepper and that I could pay extra to see characters wearing jeans and sunglasses in a vacuum just cheapened it all and made me less willing to ignore the usual awkward questions. Perhaps I'm being unfair on Bioware, though.

Modifié par hecksard, 04 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Terror_K]

The thing is, I can just ignore a pure gameplay element quite easily so long as it stays that way.



For instance, what's really more immersion breaking: a massive inventory that is never seen beyond a stats screen in-game, or the concept that Shepard happens to come across little weapons loadout lockers every few hundred metres or so that are somehow directly connected to The Normandy's weapon replication systems?

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I'm not sure that either are good. Weapons lockers do actually make more sense though - after all, even groups like the Blue Suns need an armoury to store their weapons.



Having said that I'd be quite happy with having a system like GRAW2 whereby you're basically stuck with the weapons you choose at the start of the mission, BUT you can swap your weapons with weapons found/looted during that mission. So say you go in with an Avenger, then kill an enemy wielding a Vindicator. You can keep the Avenger, or choose to put it down and pick up the Vindicator instead.

[Terror_K]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

I'm not sure that either are good. Weapons lockers do actually make more sense though - after all, even groups like the Blue Suns need an armoury to store their weapons.

Maybe. But how do your weapons get in there?

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I get what you're saying Terror, but at the same time, enemies use the same weapons you do anyway except for the DLC weapons. Perhaps the solution would be having the weapons lockers but with specific weapons options at each point. So if you're fighting enemies that only use the Vindicator, you can only choose the Vindicator as a swap option and so on.

[Terror_K]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

I get what you're saying Terror, but at the same time, enemies use the same weapons you do anyway except for the DLC weapons. Perhaps the solution would be having the weapons lockers but with specific weapons options at each point. So if you're fighting enemies that only use the Vindicator, you can only choose the Vindicator as a swap option and so on.

I don't think that would really work, and would annoy too many people to limit them like that.

Besides, I'm not saying that the weapons lockers are particlarly bad... I'm merely saying that if you're going to put down ME1 for it's massive inventory because it's unrealistic/immersion breaking and you're giving ME2 your signed seal of approval in the process, you should at least look at what you've stuck the seal on first and realise that there's an even more ridiculous factor in it than the ME1 case. Not more ridiculous in the actual concept, but in the execution, because while the inventory in ME1 is a purely gameplay factor, the weapon's loadouts you come across in ME2 are not: they're right there physically, in the map.

The same goes for those who put down the Spectre Weapons in ME1 for being too good and being God weapons that break the game, while ME2 has a research/upgrade system that allows you to God-mod everything without tradeoffs and also breaks the game.

[Schneidend]

Guys, guys, we're getting off-topic here. This thread is meant to be related only to improvements to Mass Effect 2's system as it relates to making it more like a traditional RPG while maintaining its principal advantages over ME1, its lack of clutter and more distinct weapon variety.



Weapon/Armor lockers and how much or how little sense they make is not what this thread's about. Try to restrict discussion to ways to improve ME2's inventory system. This is not an ME1 vs. ME2 debate.

[Mister Mida]

LPPrince wrote...

In short-

ME2 had inventory? Cause I didn't see it.

This human understands.

[Gleym]

Just curious, since the thread title is 'evolving'. Is the definition of evolution to regress and move backwards? Cause then I can totally see how ME2's definition of an inventory is totally evolved beyond what's recognized as a standard inventory in this day and age, sure.

[The Spamming Troll]

obviously there needs to be much more armor options available in ME3 from lighter looking armor, to civilian clothes.armor really needs alot more options in ME3. but i dont really think you can add much more to the weapon variety in ME2. every need is covered. the only thing that could be added are mods for weapons and armor, like ME1. take the phalanxs blue laser scope, the locusts silencer or the GPS power build up as "mods" and make 1 or 2 available for each weapon. personally i hope they keep ME2s weapons, but revert back to ME1s mod slots and overheating fireing.



i think modding my armor is funner then finding my armor.

[LPPrince]

You know what I find more fun?



Finding my armor and then modding it.

[Aumata]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

obviously there needs to be much more armor options available in ME3 from lighter looking armor, to civilian clothes.armor really needs alot more options in ME3. but i dont really think you can add much more to the weapon variety in ME2. every need is covered. the only thing that could be added are mods for weapons and armor, like ME1. take the phalanxs blue laser scope, the locusts silencer or the GPS power build up as "mods" and make 1 or 2 available for each weapon. personally i hope they keep ME2s weapons, but revert back to ME1s mod slots and overheating fireing.

i think modding my armor is funner then finding my armor.

That is the same feeling I have with ME2.  It was close to a perfect system, just needed more tweaks.

[AdmiralCheez]

Schneidend wrote...

ME1 and ME2 have vastly different inventory systems. ME1's breadth was certainly its greatest strength, but also its greatest weakness. Getting close to a dozen worthless items per fight added up very quickly and made the system clunky and burdensome. Now, I'm not here to suggest ME2's method is better, as it also suffers in that its greatest strength, brevity, killed a lot of potential for depth.

Little does Bioware know that you can be both simple and deep at the same time..  Just like you can have awesome character development and an awesome plot in the same game.  Just like you can have killer shootouts and intense/highly intelligent drama in the same game.  Just like you can... yeah, I can keep going with this for a while.  Oh, Bioware, you and your silly keep-it-or-nuke-it-isms!

The change was necessary, I think. They needed to start from scratch so they could look at it from another perspective. I believe that with ME2's system they discovered the base for a truly stunning inventory system for ME3. Perfection is just a few tweaks away.

Agreed.  Mostly, it just needs more stuff.  I am glad the ME1 inventory has been killed dead, but at the same time I want my customization back.

More weapons. Each category having 5 weapons seems fair. And make
each a different option with different strengths/drawbacks. They seemed
to have been trying for that, but it just doesn't work in some
instances. The Katana shotgun, for instance, has no redeeming qualities
compared to the other shotguns. They all outstrip it entirely.

Five seems like a PERFECT number.  I can see how it could go...
   1. The Basic Gun.  It's nothing special, but it doesn't do anything poorly, either.  It's balanced in all areas, and is a good go-to for beginners.
2. The Epic Gun.  Think Revenant/Claymore/Widow.  It kills most things in one shot.  Problem is, it has very limited ammo/overheats almost immediately.  Therefore, you can't afford to miss.
3. The Precision Gun.  It makes up for what it lacks in damage with an incredible clip size and absurdly good accuracy.  Good for players who like to walk into a room and just hold down the trigger.
4. The Niche Gun.  Seems useless at first until you use it in tandem with a certain power or against a specific enemy type.  Then, suddenly, you can't live without it.  Granted, it's only useful for like a quarter of all missions, but boy does it make those missions a breeze.
5. The Gimmick Gun.  Really not all that special except for a certain perk or power that makes it ridiculously fun.  Good for players who like to mix it up or enjoy messing around with conventional combat.  Half of gamers will hate it, and the other half will insist it's the most awesome thing to ever be awesome.
6. Entirely optional DLC.  Okay, so it's more than five, but since it's not actually found in-game it's more of an
"extra" category.  Bioware can do fun and potentially game-breaking stuff with DLC, but since you pay real money for it, it's appropriate to get some "bang" for your buck (lol puns).

 

Alternatively, research could remain largely the same, to replicate a
growth in raw damage output without giving us a billion weapons, but
add equippable mods as well.

Cheez approves of mods and misses sledgehammer rounds.  Cheez also approves of upgrades instead of Level I/Level X silliness.  Cheez does not enjoy spending half an hour omnigelling stuff after she levels up.

Companions should have modular armor like Shepard's, both mechanically
and in apppearance. Every piece Shepard finds should be a new piece for
the entire squad. Failing that, just make sure they're all wearing something sealed and protective while in a mission zone.

Cheez fully approves of the above bold text.  I also wouldn't mind full suits again, SO LONG AS THEY HAVE F*CKING HELMET TOGGLE and they follow a similar advantage/disadvantage system, like the guns and omni-tools.  You know, one provides basic protection, one provides damage protection, one has high shields, one has high tech/biotic resistance, and one that increases health regeneration and improves environment/toxin resistance.  I'd actually say you could have way more options with armor than you could with guns without them being redundant, but that could possibly be covered better with modular armor.

My only problem with the moduIar armor is that it didn't provide any noticeable bonuses.  If that's going to happen, there had better be a reason to equip that stuff outside of a wussy 5% increase in headshot damage or whatever (and a few additional pieces would be nice).  The question is, would you be able to customize everyone individually, complete with color schemes?  If so, I hope the options have just a touch more variety, especially in the color and pattern department.  Why?  Because I like to make things pretty, dammit.  Failing color modding, I hope that each piece looks like a part of each character's suit and not just slapped on.  For example, Grunt's would remain silvery-white with blue lights and its trademark design aesthetic, while Garrus's would get the same blocky blue shapes with the nailed-on white bars and yellow birdie patch.  I like the yellow birdie patch.  In fact, I'd prefer making the new pieces look fully integrated to color modding, but that's just me.

Omni-tools and amps could come back in some form. They should be similar
to guns in that we only ever find a particular unit once. There would
probably only need to be about three of each, one for cooldown, one for
duration, and one for damage/newtons. These would provide bonuses in
addition to tech/biotic research.
 This list is being edited with suggestions that suit it as the thread continues.

Oh, so I'm not the only one that missed amps and omni-tools?  I say, sure, but add a balanced (basic) one in there as well.  Also, maybe a gimmicky one that adds to shields/barriers or increases weapon accuracy or something.  Just because, you know, three doesn't seem like enough for me.  Of course, maybe those extra bonuses could be covered by mods and/or upgrades, so yeah, we could easily go with 5.  Five is a good number.  Then again, I can see three or four working as well.  lol idk?

Bottom line for all amps/weapons/etc: You can have as many as you want so long as none of them are obviously superior/inferior and none of them are goddamn recolors.  The important part is that each is unique in both design and function and that none are redundant.

Overall, good list.  Cheez approves!