94 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

Sidney wrote...

I actually dislike most of your ideas -- sorry. The notion that the "breadth" of ME1 was a strength seems odd to me. It was a total failure because there was a lot of trash and very little of any meaningful value - Predator and Spectre were all that anyone cared about after a short time and the rest was just trash. Much like early DAO where you piddle about with Steel vs Iron but once you get Starfang things are pretty much over for the game.

I actually preferred Colossus to Predator H/M/L for raw damage protection, and never really used Starfang. But, as I went on to say, the breadth is also the greatest weakness, since as you say it became cluttered. Still, there were a lot of mods that had some real value. There was something to peruse, a choice to be made. There really aren't as many choices to make in ME2 when it comes to your gear, and that's a legitimate weakness to the RPG traditionalist crowd. Granted, it's buried under a mountain of self-entitled and altogether made-up concerns they have, but still.

There is plenty of armor and the mix n' match quality means you have far more options at all levels than you had in ME1. I continue to see people talk about 5% and 10% don't matter but of course they do. In any scenario a 10% loss of damage matters a lot. What gets lost if that you can stack armor to be more protected or be a little more protected but also move a little faster. The choices based on combinations are a lot more powerful than simply having a suits of armor.  The % gains shouldn't matter because that is about game balancing and I never felt like, gosh I'm not powered up enough to take on whatever I'm facing.

No, there really aren't enough armor options. While I agree they do remain useful as you gain levels, and that's good, there just aren't enough individual to allow people to stack particular bonuses so they can really notice a significant difference in what their playstyle focuses on.

I'm not really sure you've understood my bullet points fully, since you're attempting to tell me the benefits of something my suggestions are meant to improve, not replace. I don't want to go back to equipping suits of armor. I like the piecemeal system ME2 has, it just needs to be more robust.

The visuals of some of the companions in no atmosphere environments was silly and should be corrected - I kept wanting to see Jack and Miranda's eyes explode from their heads for example.

To be fair, we're never told any environment in the game lacks an atmosphere. My suggestion to put Jack and Thane in proper armor (everybody else is largely fine, though Samara could stand to zip up) is out of a desire to return this game to being about "space marine" combat. In the Mass Effect universe, defensive technology has outstripped the penetration of conventional firearms, so it seems silly not to wear at least light armor like Miranda or Jacob. I liked ME1's clean plastic/ceramic aesthetic for its military technology, and I think the first game could have been badass and dark without snake men in trench coats and topless biker babes.

[ThePatriot101]

Personally I'm not a fan of instituting trade-offs to mods of weapons. The way these weapons were made they already have trade-offs built in (the Locust has a low rate of fire, the Mattock is semi-auto and scope-less, the Claymore is one-shot-one-clip, etc). By differentiating the weapons so profoundly it creates the trade-offs of using one over another so that, despite anybody's attempt to fully upgrade them, no weapon is able to be best of all - just the best for your method of play. ME1's weapons were basically all the same depending on the type. ARs fired the same, SGs handled the same, and the SRs motions were the same (fire a shot, reset the trigger, fire again).

I'm also not entirely sold on the defensive stat idea simply because some pieces of armor provided defense stats while others were offense. One chest piece would provide a bump to shield strength while a should piece beefed up melee power.

Of course I get neurotic when I play games with lots of stats crunching. In ME1 I kept maxing out my inventory because of armors or weapons that I thought I would need to use in the future. Thankfully ME2's system gave me the relief so that I can be more immersed in the game than crunching the numbers. I could focus on the combat itself and not wondering if my armor is too obsolete or if I needed the X variant when I had the VIII variant donned.

While I agree there could be more added armor parts for customization, it should stay in Shepard's quarters. Trudging through a firefight is no place to customize or switch out armor parts. It didn't make sense in ME1 so it shouldn't be like that in ME3. Same should apply to squadmate armor (which I'm either way about it).

Modifié par ThePatriot101, 28 décembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Schneidend]

I agree, hence why mods having drawbacks did not make it on the list. The purpose of a mod should be to either maximize a weapon's strengths or improve upon its weaknesses.



As for armor, I think most people don't really understand WHY armor would not provide some kind of protection. It's armor. If armor pieces aren't going to provide mechanical defensive buffs, then they should just be cosmetic and things like "+25% to melee damage" and "+5% to shields" should be mods independent of armor appearance.

[james1976]

I'm all for euipable mods coming back into the game. Researching upgrades is nice but customization in ME2 isn't what it could be.



This thread is proving to be a good read.

[Sidney]

Schneidend wrote...


No, there really aren't enough armor options. While I agree they do remain useful as you gain levels, and that's good, there just aren't enough individual to allow people to stack particular bonuses so they can really notice a significant difference in what their playstyle focuses on.

To be fair, we're never told any environment in the game lacks an atmosphere. My suggestion to put Jack and Thane in proper armor (everybody else is largely fine, though Samara could stand to zip up) is out of a desire to return this game to being about "space marine" combat. In the Mass Effect universe, defensive technology has outstripped the penetration of conventional firearms, so it seems silly not to wear at least light armor like Miranda or Jacob. I liked ME1's clean plastic/ceramic aesthetic for its military technology, and I think the first game could have been badass and dark without snake men in trench coats and topless biker babes.

I think there are enough options because, really, how many ways can you say +10% armor? In theory you could make each part of the paper doll set have a bit that does one thing (+ to armor, shields, weapon damage, melee dmage) and what not. I'm just not sure any of that really works/matters and in terms of game balance the effect would likely be, to stop massive stacking each bit would have less "potency" than they do now which would only aggravate your perceived problem.

Where Bioware went wrong was armor period. They would have been better off just rolling with shields as your protection and then the costumes would work well and make sense and they wouldn't have to worry about helmets either but they were too wedded to a fantasy worlds to make that leap. Plus, dear god the fits people would have had with no armor to equip....god help us if anyone does a RPG in a western or 20th century setting.

[Schneidend]

Well, there are very few pieces that provide bonus to shield recharge time, power damage, and I don't believe there are any power cooldown bonuses whatsoever.



Really, what I'm asking for here is to reintroduce what ME1 did RIGHT, and that's give you some numbers to crunch when it comes to customizing your character. Christina Norman has already promised to beef up the RPG side of things for ME3, and this list is meant to provide some fan suggestions that get echoed a lot but aren't TRULY OUTRAGEOUS.

[RedShft]

SOG TOUGH wrote...

Call of Duty multiplayer has a better inventory system than Mass Effect 2.

hahahha? What? 

[RedShft]

Schneidend wrote...

Well, there are very few pieces that provide bonus to shield recharge time, power damage, and I don't believe there are any power cooldown bonuses whatsoever.

Really, what I'm asking for here is to reintroduce what ME1 did RIGHT, and that's give you some numbers to crunch when it comes to customizing your character. Christina Norman has already promised to beef up the RPG side of things for ME3, and this list is meant to provide some fan suggestions that get echoed a lot but aren't TRULY OUTRAGEOUS.

So the "RPG side of things" is number crunching like a statistician? Please. The inventory system in ME1 was horrible, and a burden. I am glad they got rid of it.

[kmcd5722]

SOG TOUGH wrote...

Call of Duty multiplayer has a better inventory system than Mass Effect 2.

And in some ways, it is the case there is deeper customization that you visibly see and feel in the wide selection of guns in CoD.  In ME2, the "mods" to the gun can only be felt in small doses throughout the game.  The upgrades are not necessarily visible.  It's sad that a FPS has a better inventory than an RPG/TPS.  Oh well. 

So it's not such an outlandish statement after all.

Modifié par kmcd5722, 30 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Bamboozalist]

Zero inventory. I don't want to be running around collecting tons of useless crap, that my character realistically could not carry. People claiming for immersion, that is immersion.



More customization, make every weapon unique and allow us to make it how we want it, same with armor. Make it so every item is different and has a purpose and feels like we can play the way we want to play. That is what an RPG is about playing a character the way you want to play it. Traditional RPG inventories are pretty much the opposite of this because gear is based on pretty linear stat leveling with only a few wild variations that are single situation and mostly gimmicks and the end game gear is always the best that everyone ends up using.

[Schneidend]

Okay, obviously, some clarification is necessary...



First, ME2 had an inventory, and having any customization at all would also be an inventory. An "inventory" is just a collection of items. Having more than one gun is already and inventory.



Second, these are suggestions to improve upon what we already had in ME2 by incorporating only what WORKS from the ME1 style of inventory. I don't think I can make that clear enough. The point of these suggestions is not to go back to a DAO or ME1 style inventory full of mostly useless items. The point is to expand on the choices we had in ME2. We had modular armor, but not enough pieces. We had multiple guns that generally played differently from one another, but no way to customize them.



Basically, the idea here is to have the best of both worlds. We only need to find one instance of each gun/armor/mod and then we have it, just like ME2, but there will be greater variety of these items to actually find.

[james1976]

Customization is the key no matter how you slice up the inventory. And yes we want inventory. No one said it had to be exactly like ME1, but I hate running to the Weapon's Locker to swap something out if I want. The Armor/Appearance locker in Shepard's quarters was kind of cool, but I hate having to go there if I want to put on my headgear or if I want to take it off. In ME1 you could just toggle it on or off at anytime. Sometimes it makes sense to wear headgear and others it doesn't make much sense at all. Why would wear your helmet in a bar for example? That's just an example. Headgear does stuff for you in ME2 where it didn't in ME1 and that's fine but as part of the inventory you should be able to take it out on whenever you want. I do not agree with carrying 50 guns around on a single person really but I can't even access the inventory without a weapons locker. Say you pick up a new gun but you like the old one better. This happened to me in ME2 and I was stuck with the newer weapon as it was auto-replaced. I want to be able to customize my weapons and my armor. And the armor of my team! They took that away in ME2. Mods are a great way to customize weapons such as sights for example. Not saying to remove the upgrade system and affects these things but upgrading itself it just improving, not customizing. Unless you were allowed to choose what upgrades you wanted to apply to each given weapon, armor, and omi-tool. In which case that would be fine.

[Schneidend]

Well, they solved the issue of auto-replacing your old gun with a new one by putting a weapon locker nearby.

Other than that, though, I think we're on the same page. I'll go ahead and add accessing your inventory through the menu to the list.

[The Spamming Troll]

RedShft wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Well, there are very few pieces that provide bonus to shield recharge time, power damage, and I don't believe there are any power cooldown bonuses whatsoever.

Really, what I'm asking for here is to reintroduce what ME1 did RIGHT, and that's give you some numbers to crunch when it comes to customizing your character. Christina Norman has already promised to beef up the RPG side of things for ME3, and this list is meant to provide some fan suggestions that get echoed a lot but aren't TRULY OUTRAGEOUS.

So the "RPG side of things" is number crunching like a statistician? Please. The inventory system in ME1 was horrible, and a burden. I am glad they got rid of it.

you dont think bioware would improve upon what ME1 gave us with its inventory? you wouldnt want to put a scope on your AR or a laser sight on your pistol? i enjoyed modding my wepaons and my armor. all it did was make my sheaprd all that more unique, which is always a good thing. i honeslty dont know why youd wouldnt want options like that in the first place.

[Schneidend]

I can see why you wouldn't want a laser sight on your pistol. Personally, I can't stand laser sights in any game. The Phalanx is easily my least favorite weapon in the entire game.

[Sidney]

RedShft wrote...
So the "RPG side of things" is number crunching like a statistician? Please. The inventory system in ME1 was horrible, and a burden. I am glad they got rid of it.

For some, and this is the big gap for so many players. There are people who knew that the Agility bonus in DAO was nerfed and those who didn't/didn't care. The game mechanics and rules lawyers love trying to eek out that nth degree of power and edge in each battle. That not what role playing is about to me and it seriously detracts from the mission of role playing - see Fallout New Vegas- but for some it is the raison d'etre of the game world.

I don't want my hero to be fiddling about with armor and guns and swapping out this for that. I can't think of heroic stories/movies/books/ballads where heroes spend time doing that. I want to be a hero, not a dresser or a shop keeper.

[Sidney]

Schneidend wrote...

Second, these are suggestions to improve upon what we already had in ME2 by incorporating only what WORKS from the ME1 style of inventory. I don't think I can make that clear enough. The point of these suggestions is not to go back to a DAO or ME1 style inventory full of mostly useless items. The point is to expand on the choices we had in ME2. We had modular armor, but not enough pieces. We had multiple guns that generally played differently from one another, but no way to customize them.

Really, customization - and you even said this - is a way to eliminate or overcome the weakness of a weapon. The point of different weapons is to be, well, different. If I can add "shoot faster" mod to the Mattock and a "less recoil" mod to the LMG then what really becomes the difference between the two? We all want a gun that shoots fast, hits hard, recoils little but if all guns did that thern there is really no choice.

Mods on the plus side enable you to "fit the gun to your character" but in the end that should be controlled by the gun not slapping a bunch of stuff on it.   I think the range of base level guns needs to match what the selection was post-DLC for ME2 because then you have a range of options that fit different styles.

Modifié par Sidney, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Atmosfear3]

The reason you don't see modular armor for squadmates in ME2 is because every teammate has a different character model. Miranda doesn't look like Samara, who doesn't look like Kasumi, and so on and so forth. ME1 was easy as Liara and Ashley basically shared the same body model, as did Kaidan and male Shepard. Their essentially just pasting the face to the body every time they change armor.



Frankly, I would be perfectly happy if BW simply had their artists draw up some new character models for each teammate, giving us a choice of 2-4 different outfits. Shepard and his teammates can also equip armor mods, enhancing certain stats with limited slots. Only Shepard will have modular armor with individual bonuses per piece.

[Lumikki]

Schneidend wrote...

We need some way to access our inventory, even if only in a limited way, from the menu of the game. At the very least, we should be able to change weapon mods mid-mission.

Okey, I comment this first, because it's ony major point that I disagree.  It just doesn't feel right. I mean hole idea is to go missions so that before you go there you choose what to take with you. Not have some magical access to hole Normandy inventory so that we can change our choises anytime we like. I don't like RPG when it doesn't make any sense.

Other ways I agree with you ideas, even if I have little bit disagreements for few. How ever, just because I little bit disagree doesn't mean it's not good idea.

Example I don't like visible stats for player, because it promotes powerplaying or metagaming. I don't like strong item based linear progression in Shepards story, because it creates too much rat to God gameplay.

My point is that to have variety you need choises, like OP is suggesting. How ever, having +10% damage, +20% damage +30% damage is not really good choise, because it doesn't really offer anything new to player. In my opinion better choise is  "fire damage", "cold damage", "explosion damage" and so on.. It's different between upgrades and real variety to gameplay as choise.

Why? Because any level based game, game will just has to scale the upgrade out, because game needs to keep the challenge for player as same. It's about player vs enviroment balance. So, in the end only real variety to players gameplay is item variatation, not upgrades. Upgrades doesn't create variety, they creates progression.

How ever most important progressin is about main story. In RPG it can also be about character progression, what can be skills or items. How ever, without rat to God progression this has no meaning and Shepards story isn't about rat to God. So, I would not put so much effort to upgrades, but the variety of items as choise. Choise like do I choose to my weapon have +20% more damage or ability freeze enemies for 10 second. Choise is what matters, not upgrade same choise.

How to know when some choise is good? Good choise creates variety to players gameplay, bad choise makes other choises obsolete. Progression and upgrades go in hand to hand. How ever, is upgrade really a choise at all, because only choise what player has is not to upgrade what cause players character to be gimped. So, it's not really a choise it's pre-defined what player is forced to do anyway. So, hole rat to God isn't about choise, it's just linear useless progression with items what player is forced to manually change. The real choise in items is what allows players to create real variety to they gameplay, new options and choises what player did not have before. So, real progression isn't in linear item upgrades, but in items (and skills) what creates real variety of players gameplay as choise.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[james1976]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

The reason you don't see modular armor for squadmates in ME2 is because every teammate has a different character model. Miranda doesn't look like Samara, who doesn't look like Kasumi, and so on and so forth. ME1 was easy as Liara and Ashley basically shared the same body model, as did Kaidan and male Shepard. Their essentially just pasting the face to the body every time they change armor.

Frankly, I would be perfectly happy if BW simply had their artists draw up some new character models for each teammate, giving us a choice of 2-4 different outfits. Shepard and his teammates can also equip armor mods, enhancing certain stats with limited slots. Only Shepard will have modular armor with individual bonuses per piece.

I think they could have done that if they wanted.  That's one of my biggest gripes with the game is not being able to customize more like ME1.  If they had made more models for each character and added modular armor pieces to be used with them, then that would have been great.  The whole point of customizing is to do it your way with the things you like.  I understand some people do not want to go through all that but they could just create loadout packages for them to solve that and allow those who want to customize every aspect of their character and their team to do so as they choose.  That would also include weapons.

It's one of my biggest gripes but not the biggest.  The biggest is skills in ME2 but that if another topic entirely.

Modifié par james1976, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .