239 réponses à ce sujet

[Aigyl]

I'm no tech expert, but wouldn't in-game loading screens like elevators take more power to load through (the console/pc has to manage all the in-game stuff at the same time), so the loading takes longer than a normal loading screen? If that's the case I'll take a loading screen.

I disliked the elevators because:

-I felt the loading was taking longer than it had to and would be shorter if they just had a loading screen. That means I'm twiddling my thumbs longer waiting for the loading to finish.

-Squad banter was great, but more often than not it was some annoying news report you'd heard five times already. "Francis Kitt has announced his new play..." *headdesk*

-I didn't feel any immersion most of the time. I couldn't help but see the elevator as an artificial loading screen.


And as others have said, I don't really get how the MS screen is more immersion-breaking than an inventory screen or codex entry. The MS screen is something you'd expect to see on an arcade shooter sure, but how does that make it a bad thing beyond vaguely making ME2 less "RPG-ish"? Just because it's not usually in RPGs that doesn't mean it can't fit into a RPG (if you count ME2 as a RPG).

Modifié par Aigyl, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Lvl20DM]

Honestly, the mission completes were okay (and they gave some info from Cerberus' perspective of the mission). I think that they could have accomplished the same thing with subtle text in the bottom of the screen and journal updates, though. Occasional debriefs with the more of the squad would have been welcome, but we did get some good ones regardless.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Phaedon wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
How is the mission complete screen more immersion breaking that opening the crappy inventory screen ?

It's not.

The arguement that something is "more" immersion breaking than something else doesnt help any point youre trying to make Darth.

In comparison to ME1's unique invention of getting rid of "summary screens" almost entirely, ME2 was a step backward in that regard. The Baseline is ME1 no? All they had to do was tweak and fine tune that to include dialogue/banter etc, and have a few more "party debriefings".

Comparisons to other immersion breaking components are irrelevant. Resource and time management arguements could be made, as well as the direction the franchise headed with ME2, but those are different concerns.

[Siegdrifa]

Jerecaine wrote...

Granted im all for opinions and stuff, but the mission complete screen issue in ME2 seems like a very small scale thing for people to hate. I dont see why it's such an issue personally, so maybe someone can explain their reason for it.

I find the "complete screen" in ME2 too "end of level" like and breaking the immerssion.

I think they used it to not bother make didecated rtc with different character, it would have been too much work for dev to make all debriefing like this.

I don't find it to be majeur problem, but it's still  too big to be just a detail.


I think they should have tryed to incorpored in a betterway, like a real fil to read on your desk after each mission.
Kelly: "Comander, the report on your last mission is waiting for you validation in your personnal terminal".
And to make sure the played would check it, you would get some extra xp like unlocking a codex in ME1, or have to sign it in order to get the fund credit from cerberus (any little cooki will do).
I mean, just a little tricks could keep them from making fully voiced de-briefing and still trying to keept it integrated in RPG way.

[spacehamsterZH]

Jerecaine wrote...
seems like a very small scale thing for people to hate.

Yeah, but that's the ComplainSquad's favorite kind of thing to hate. Case in point, this thread is now five pages long.

Are the mission complete screens a completely unnecessary addition? Yes. Are they somehow a big deal? Only if your favorite thing to do is finding a new minor detail in ME2 to complain about every day.

[RiouHotaru]

The problem that the original had was that you got exp and credits for every enemy kill, and loot, if left unchecked, piled up REAL fast, especially on any level with robots or geth. Pausing mid-mission to sort through the twenty-plus mods/weapons I picked up or pausing to suddenly add new skill points was a pain.



I actually LIKE the Mission Complete screen because it lets me know how many points I earn [Sometimes I go up two levels instead of just one], how many credits I got, what upgrades I gathered. Puts all the information I need into a neat little package.



Also, the mission briefings? Only applied to Feros, Noveria, Therum, and Virmire. Which incidentally are the major story missions. You don't get FULL staff briefings in the sequel, but you get something. And more often. Also, remember that your staff in the original was basically 5 people, since I never saw Tali. Also, I can understand not having every squad member give an opinion on each mission. That's a LOT of voicework. Besides, the interactions I got with them already, and sometimes mid-mission was good enough for me.

[wizardryforever]

Are people's senses of immersion really that fragile, that a single screen completely breaks it?  Really?  The mission complete screen has tIM's input on the mission, which can be quite lengthy if it's a main mission.  It also has all of the information on things you gathered over the course of the mission.  XP, credits, weapons, new sqaudmates/powers, and resources.  These are things that plenty of people (not just "console kiddies" or "shooter crowd") would forget about in the heat of the moment.  It's nice to not have to check every screen to see what's new, it's all summed up nicely in the mission complete screen.

Can people really not use their imagination thinking, "hey, Kelly or Miranda may have given me this report," or "I've hacked into the Illusive man's private files, score!"  The only thing on the mission complete screen that is a meta-game construct is the XP count, and maybe new squadmate powers.  Everything else is in universe.  That spells immersion to me.

Also, on the subject of XP for kills vs. XP for missions.  Keep it XP for missions.  People should not be given more XP if they take the bloodiest path possible.  Diplomatic or stealth related solutions to missions should have just as much credence.  For some reason XP for kills just seems more artificial to me.

[N0touchi]

Chignon wrote...

Because there was once a game called Mass Effect 1 which had a debriefing with the whole crew after every major mission.

This.

[Aumata]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The problem that the original had was that you got exp and credits for every enemy kill, and loot, if left unchecked, piled up REAL fast, especially on any level with robots or geth. Pausing mid-mission to sort through the twenty-plus mods/weapons I picked up or pausing to suddenly add new skill points was a pain.

I actually LIKE the Mission Complete screen because it lets me know how many points I earn [Sometimes I go up two levels instead of just one], how many credits I got, what upgrades I gathered. Puts all the information I need into a neat little package.

Also, the mission briefings? Only applied to Feros, Noveria, Therum, and Virmire. Which incidentally are the major story missions. You don't get FULL staff briefings in the sequel, but you get something. And more often. Also, remember that your staff in the original was basically 5 people, since I never saw Tali. Also, I can understand not having every squad member give an opinion on each mission. That's a LOT of voicework. Besides, the interactions I got with them already, and sometimes mid-mission was good enough for me.

Thank you, that is my reason why I wasn't bother with the changes in ME2.  By the time I played ME for the 3rd time I stop caring for my inventory.  Having to go through all of that crap just to find the good upgrade was a pain in the ass, especially when it really didn't make much of a difference.  After the 3rd time I waited till I could afford the master gear in all my play through.  It is immersion breaking when I have to worry about does this weapon do more damage out of the 146 items that I have obtain.  Case in point, I hate weapon scaling, but that is another topic.

[haberman13]

ME2 basically combined what many of us were used to (immersive RPGs) with 3rd person shooters...

Most nerds like me HATE with a passion TPS games, ergo the nerd-rage about the loading screens, which are a staple of "other" games.  (much like i HATE college drinking movies)

I hate the loading screens because it reminds me that culture is dumbing down, I know that sounds ridiculous ... but I lump the loading screens in with reality TV and dancing with the stars. 

"Gimme action, ok, now gimme more action, ok, more action needed please.... enough with the thinking and "immersion", nerd"

Idiocracy, a true story.

All things are not equal, opinion is fine, but:

Mozart > Lady Gaga  (on a technical level)
BMW > Honda (on a technical level)
Games without loading screens > games with loading screens (on a technical level)

See, now you understand! 

Modifié par haberman13, 03 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Schneidend]

People have to complain about something. Apparently a reminder of the hidden stuff they've found is just TOO IMMERSION BREAKING WHOAMAGAWD!!!

[Roamingmachine]

The mission complete screens were only part of a much wider problem which was that the diffrent elements of the UI and mechanics were not anywhere near the quality of the actual gameplay.Every menu looks amateurish from composition and fonts all the way to implementation.Starting from the main menu.Same with space exploration and the feeling of disconnection with the missions.So yeah, the mc screen was amateurish relic from the wastebasket of gaming history.I just can't wrap my head around how the main gameplay seems so polished but all the little things seem rushed and out of place.Hell, they feel like something from a small indy developer rather than from a big game house.The thing with little things is that they add up to big things.

[Elvis_Mazur]

Ah yes, "immersion"

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

haberman13 wrote...

ME2 basically combined what many of us were used to (immersive RPGs) with 3rd person shooters...

Most nerds like me HATE with a passion TPS games, ergo the nerd-rage about the loading screens, which are a staple of "other" games.  (much like i HATE college drinking movies)

Unfortunately my fellow nerds consider those other type of games "dumb" and associate them with the CoD-brahs.

I hate the loading screens because it reminds me that culture is dumbing down, I know that sounds ridiculous ... but I lump the loading screens in with reality TV and dancing with the stars. 

"Gimme action, ok, now gimme more action, ok, more action needed please.... enough with the thinking and "immersion", nerd"

Idiocracy, a true story.

Yeah you are right, idiocracy at its true finest. Your entire post that is.

Specially the part about loading screens.

I don't know what RPGs you've been playing in the past but ALL games (including RPGs) have loading screens. So to try and claim only 'other' games does is down right laughable.

I could go through every single Bioware RPG and even any RPG in the history of gaming and I would be able to point out them having loading screens.

Also I hate to break it to you, but it was Mass Effect (the original game) that combined RPG with TPS to begin with, ME2 was just it's sequel.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 03 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[AntiChri5]

I don't get the people saying "Just have TIM tell you after the mission!!"

TIM is going to tell you about how he is going to keep Orianna in his reach to ensure Miranda behaves?

[Rebel42]

There are loading screens in all types of games, some are better hidden then others. I don't mind the mission complete screen, it doesn't break the immersion for me but then I never look at it.

[Moondoggie]

Theres not really a big deal to it it';s just a summery of whatever debrief you had with TIM to create and record dialogue for EVERY debrief would have taken too much wasted time. I guess some people nitpick with games a bit ME2 has it';s faults but some people get upset with really small details and praise the first one. I imagine when the third is out people will be praising the second game saying "oh i wish they kept this instead of changing it"

[ifander]

The interesting thing about the load screens is that they are excessively long. On a PC with decent HDD performance you can get the load times down to a few seconds, if you like charmingcharlie said replace the load screens with static images. Having spent more than 400 hrs on this game I can tell you, it gets tedious, especially on Insanity where the slightest mistake means a reload.



As for the mission complete screen, it may not be a big deal, but it wouldn't be a very big deal to make it optional either. Say, an entry in the Options menu? Knowing Bioware though, it's unlikely they'll do anything about it.

[Ahglock]

Yeah it is immersion breaking, but for me it is because it is a reminder of how all the levels felt instanced and not a part of the whole galaxy. Sometimes that works in the context of the story like Jacks recruitment mission other times not so much. I get why I can't really casually visit there both before and after so it being there just for the mission is fine. The other ones, not so much. The gamist element of you have to be on this mission to get the prize at the end hit me over the head too much. I get you are always on tracks in structured RPGs, the trick is camouflageing the tracks so we don't always see them. The mission complete screen is like a sign pointing to the tracks saying this is the railroad you are on destination level 30.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

The more I think about this, the more funny I find this whole 'bring back debriefings' statement, am sorry but clearly some people weren't playing the same game I was in this instance.

Every one of the dossiers had a debriefing usually involving dossier person, jacob and Shepard (EDI sometimes involved too)
There were a couple of conversations between people after a combination of loyalty missions and of course another loyalty mission where Shepard, Miranda, Jacob and TIM were discussing the events.
Some of the non-squad related main missions had just TIM and Shep have a chat after, some with Shep, Jacob and Miranda and some with some of the other squad mates (and crew) involved.

So basically put, they don't need to be brought back because they never left in the first place.

All that happened was that we just got some additional insight into the missions we did and TIM/Cerberus view on it. Like I said earlier, one simple way to improve it and make it more immersive would be to make the screen look like a datapad screen rather than a screen with info and a picture of TIM sat in the background in his chair having it start off with a cut-scene that if skipped allows the player to skip the whole mission complete screen if they so wish whilst those that do like looking at it can do so.

You know, that thing called 'Choice' we all so much love to see in the ME games.

Actually, this got me thinking back to the UNC missions in Mass Effect, people talk about how the 'loading screens' take them out of immersion. Correct me if am wrong but whenever we went to a planet that didn't have a space port, not only did we have a loading screen to enter the planet but we also had one when leaving it. Which meant that a good portion of the UNC missions had to go through this.

Not saying ME2 wasn't like that, in some cases we hit a mission complete before we even saw Shep leave the planet. But my point is, in both instances when Shep was back on the Normandy he was at the CIC. So another solution rather than completely ditching the mission complete screens data would be that once a mission is done, it either shows the cut-scene of them departing or a quick statement by Meer/Hale to indicate the mission is over (when we press the button to end the mission on some of them) and loading screen fires up and we're back at the CIC, if a player wants they can then view the 'Mission data' on their terminal. That way everybody wins, right?

Could even have Kelly Chambers tell us that we have data to look at... along with all the mails and other stuff she likes to talk about.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Not only you don't choose to see that screen (unlike menus), it makes you teleport somewhere else and is even completely useless. I don't even care about my credits (which I can check on the menu) since I always get a lot and there's almost nothing to buy but fancy uneeded researches, except the ship ones. And hey, I went through ME2 lately without ever checking how much element, credits or whatnot I had and it didn't mattered AT ALL. ME1 had smooth transitions, taking elevators, waiting for depressurization, for me it was a big part of the immersion of the game. Yes there's menus, but you choose to open them whenever you want and they are an essential part of any good rpg (hybrid or not), the mission complete screen is just useless, inappropriate, immersion breaker and arcadey.



This forum really shows how much ME2 caters to people who could care less about rpgs and would rather see it working like gears of war. Thing is, ME was always designed as an RPG/shooter hybrid, and now that Bioware dropped the ball with that hybrid concept, people feel the need defend that when it's done mid-way through the franchise.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

The more I think about this, the more funny I find this whole 'bring back debriefings' statement, am sorry but clearly some people weren't playing the same game I was in this instance.

Every one of the dossiers had a debriefing usually involving dossier person, jacob and Shepard (EDI sometimes involved too)
There were a couple of conversations between people after a combination of loyalty missions and of course another loyalty mission where Shepard, Miranda, Jacob and TIM were discussing the events.
Some of the non-squad related main missions had just TIM and Shep have a chat after, some with Shep, Jacob and Miranda and some with some of the other squad mates (and crew) involved.

So basically put, they don't need to be brought back because they never left in the first place.

Dude, talk about a debriefing "glad to have your skill-set". Seriously there was nothing fun with these and they were damn short. In ME1, they were longer, you had more choices and there were just more interactions in general. I guess that we basically get no mission with particular implication destroys a bit the purpose of debriefings. In ME2 we get what? THREE real missions? With no real implications to them? Ie. choices you had to make for example in ME1. Conversations with squad mates in ME2 were quite more sparse, less detailed and quite shorter. Yes overall you have as much conversations with squad mates, but they are much shorter and there's not even an handful of them per character. There's like one conversation, then one about the loyalty quest, and then another one which could only be two lines like with Jacob.

[wizardryforever]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

The more I think about this, the more funny I find this whole 'bring back debriefings' statement, am sorry but clearly some people weren't playing the same game I was in this instance.

Every one of the dossiers had a debriefing usually involving dossier person, jacob and Shepard (EDI sometimes involved too)
There were a couple of conversations between people after a combination of loyalty missions and of course another loyalty mission where Shepard, Miranda, Jacob and TIM were discussing the events.
Some of the non-squad related main missions had just TIM and Shep have a chat after, some with Shep, Jacob and Miranda and some with some of the other squad mates (and crew) involved.

So basically put, they don't need to be brought back because they never left in the first place.

Dude, talk about a debriefing "glad to have your skill-set". Seriously there was nothing fun with these and they were damn short. In ME1, they were longer, you had more choices and there were just more interactions in general. I guess that we basically get no mission with particular implication destroys a bit the purpose of debriefings. In ME2 we get what? THREE real missions? With no real implications to them? Ie. choices you had to make for example in ME1. Conversations with squad mates in ME2 were quite more sparse, less detailed and quite shorter. Yes overall you have as much conversations with squad mates, but they are much shorter and there's not even an handful of them per character. There's like one conversation, then one about the loyalty quest, and then another one which could only be two lines like with Jacob.

My God, talk about seeing what you want to see.  More interactions in ME1?  Have you even played ME2?  Or do you consider things like elevator conversations (which Shepard does not participate in) and the odd "talk to" moments on the Citadel to be interactions?  Because the sheer number of characters both on and off the squad that Shepard can converse with in ME2 is much, much higher.  As for mission debriefings, there is one after every recruitment and every Illusive man-originating mission, and while everyone is not present, pretty much anyone who might have something to say is.  Even if you don't count recruitment and loyalty missions as "story" missions, that still makes ME1 have exactly ONE more briefing than ME2.  Hardly a radical change.

With squad conversations, only Jacob, Tali, and Garrus behave as you describe (unless you romance them), everyone else you talk to has just as much if not more to say as the squaddies in ME1.  That makes seven squaddies with just as much to say as ME1 squaddies.  Hey that's more than ME1 had!  Go figure. <_<

[AmstradHero]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
{Paraphrasing} : Every main, recruitment and loyalty mission in ME2 had a debrief every bit as long as ME1. And ME1 still had a lot of loading screens... animated ones too!

Precisely. I love that it takes less than a few years for people to start remembering ME1 with the wide-eyed romantic love that only nostalgia can provide.  Come on complainers, think about ME1 for just one second. Not with the rabid "ME1 WAS BETTER!" glasses you're wearing, but objectively. Many of the things you're complaining about are still present in ME1.

I liked elevator rides, at least the ones on the citadel. I'll admit that I wish that those were still around. But given how many people jumped up and down saying: "Elevator rides are boring! Get rid of them!" is anyone really that surprised that they got the boot?

That said, I'm seriously glad that they got rid of the "decontamination in progress". It started to grate on me after about the first half a dozen times. I understand why it's there, but it's supremely boring to stand in an almost featureless box waiting for an area to load. The same applies to the elevator inside the Normandy or the elevators on Noveria. They're dull and tedious. I'm glad they went.

But getting back to the actual topic of Mission Complete screens...

wizardryforever wrote...

Are people's senses of immersion really that fragile, that a single screen completely breaks it?  Really?  The mission complete screen has tIM's input on the mission, which can be quite lengthy if it's a main mission.  It also has all of the information on things you gathered over the course of the mission.  XP, credits, weapons, new sqaudmates/powers, and resources.  These are things that plenty of people (not just "console kiddies" or "shooter crowd") would forget about in the heat of the moment.  It's nice to not have to check every screen to see what's new, it's all summed up nicely in the mission complete screen.

It seems the people complaining about the MC screens lack the attention to read this point and respond to it. No-one responded when I said this was actually a good thing.

Siegdrifa {+ corrections} wrote...

I think they should have tried to incorporated in a better way, like a real file to read on your desk after each mission.

Bravo. I like this suggestion and it would likely keep the complainers happy. Though I imagine they'd find something to complain about with this solution.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 03 décembre 2010 - 09:57 .