239 réponses à ce sujet

[hong]

Staring at a mission complete screen is no less immersive than staring at an inventory screen, and possibly more so, because the former is at least related to the story and the latter isn't.

[Veex]

Would have been more pleased to see the mission complete information delivered via e-mail to the private terminal, or had the option to link up with TIM over QEC for a rundown of the mission where appropriate. That said, it doesn't bother me, and I don't mind reading TIM's summaries of the mission in that format.

[aeetos21]

pretty much what everyone else is saying - the wrong debrief for this sort of game ESPECIALLY given what most people decide to do with mass effect 2's big decision at the end. i would much rather see the debriefs that were like the ones in me1. either in the comm room (for major mission debriefs) or someplace else, as long as there is dialogue between the major characters or - if it was a side mission - a simple debrief between Shepard and whoever in the comm room or at the galaxy map

[Acturas]

Because its just "feels" wrong. agree with the posts about relayed via email or comm room etc

[sanadawarrior]

I hated them at first because I wasn't expecting them so the first few were a bit jarring. Now that I am used to them they could be in or out in the next game and I wouldn't care either way.

[LPPrince]

To be honest, I want exp for every kill, not every mission.

It feels like spoonfeeding when I get the same amount of exp from a mission no matter how I did it.

I guess I can relate that to me wanting a bit more ME1 in ME3, since ME2 was so radically different.

Same with the mission complete and load screens.

Modifié par LPPrince, 05 décembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Tasker]

hong wrote...

Staring at a mission complete screen is no less immersive than staring at an inventory screen, and possibly more so, because the former is at least related to the story and the latter isn't.

A major difference is that we open the inventory when "we"  want to, with the TIM screen we are forced to view it when the "game"  want's us to.  If you choose to, you can play ME1 without ever calling up the inventory screen, you can't do that with the TIM screens.


On it's own the TIM screen could almost be forgiven, but when teamed with the "Press B to end mission"  popup and the teleporting here there and everywhere that they replaced the airlock/elevator transitions with, then the TIM screen just helps to reinforce the modular ( almost DLC like ) nature of the game and breaks the flow by taking the player out of the game without consent.

In the end it comes down to how the game flows as to wether the immersion is broken or not, and the way ME2 flows is very disjointed.

The way ME1 flows is almost seamless by comparison.  Airlocks/elevators instead of loading screens, proper conversations with UNC mission givers instead of emails, and full squad debriefings after each major plot mission instead of a static TIM screen. 

Modifié par Orkboy, 05 décembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Well take Samara's recruitment mission. Upon completion, Shepard momentarily stares off into space whilst the game loads the Mission Complete screen. It completely destroyed the immersion of being absorbed into the Mass Effect world. A story is designed to captivate the individual, to delude them into almost believing they are within the world they are reading/witnessing. A gimmicky conclusion effectively eliminates this. I do not require a check list of all my findings. Not to mention should I have missed anything... it is a "lost forever" anyway.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Well take Samara's recruitment mission. Upon completion, Shepard momentarily stares off into space whilst the game loads the Mission Complete screen. It completely destroyed the immersion of being absorbed into the Mass Effect world. A story is designed to captivate the individual, to delude them into almost believing they are within the world they are reading/witnessing. A gimmicky conclusion effectively eliminates this. I do not require a check list of all my findings. Not to mention should I have missed anything... it is a "lost forever" anyway.

Yeah, and it's not like you have a certain list of particular items, it's just credits, materials and maybe a weapon or research project, all of which are very easy to find. You have them or you don't, that's it, plus you've just did it. If you don't remember what you got, why should you care about knowing what you retrieved? You'll forget it anyway if it's not really important to you.

hong wrote...

Staring at a mission complete screen is no
less immersive than staring at an inventory screen, and possibly more
so, because the former is at least related to the story and the latter
isn't.

Mission Completed screens may be related to the story, but menus are related to your character, I fail to see how menus could be less immersive or important. Plus, the only thing related about the story is an overview of what you just did, talk about useless. If anything you directly experienced the story while menus may allow you to do real things. With a video game, you have no choice but have a certain level of "less immersive components" if you want a bit of depth in it, and that Mission Screen is totally useless as immersion breaking when it teleports you far from where you just were without your aknowledgement.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 06 décembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[DTKT]

I think I would be perfectly content with a "port back to Normady" end mission. You could get an update via a mail or a video conference. Not a summary screen.

[TheBMT]

If they made the post mission screen a little more involved then it wouldn't be so bad. Have me show up on the main deck or in my room. Where I can access the mission complete stats. I mean, yea it saves everybody a step of having to go look it up. But its the little things that we as gamers notice. We want a masterpiece and we believe Bioware can deliver.

[TheBMT]

aeetos21 wrote...

pretty much what everyone else is saying - the wrong debrief for this sort of game ESPECIALLY given what most people decide to do with mass effect 2's big decision at the end. i would much rather see the debriefs that were like the ones in me1. either in the comm room (for major mission debriefs) or someplace else, as long as there is dialogue between the major characters or - if it was a side mission - a simple debrief between Shepard and whoever in the comm room or at the galaxy map

Really what we are all saying is we want the "hang up" option again.

[massive_effect]

The Mission Complete splash screen was a new addition to ME. It felt old-school when compared with the seamless world of ME1. (ME1 had a mini-splash box when some missions ended. I never liked those, either.)

But, ME2 has a smooth frame rate and feels much more polished. So, I don't mind the MC splash at the end.

[hong]

Orkboy wrote...

hong wrote...

Staring at a mission complete screen is no less immersive than staring at an inventory screen, and possibly more so, because the former is at least related to the story and the latter isn't.

A major difference is that we open the inventory when "we"  want to, with the TIM screen we are forced to view it when the "game"  want's us to.  If you choose to, you can play ME1 without ever calling up the inventory screen, you can't do that with the TIM screens.

People can choose to do all sorts of weird things, including not ever calling up the inventory screen. Using player vagaries as a justification for design elements is not particularly compelling.

On it's own the TIM screen could almost be forgiven, but when teamed with the "Press B to end mission"  popup and the teleporting here there and everywhere that they replaced the airlock/elevator transitions with, then the TIM screen just helps to reinforce the modular ( almost DLC like ) nature of the game and breaks the flow by taking the player out of the game without consent.

"Consent"? I was not aware that ME2 transgressed the boundaries of human interaction to such a degree as to invite comparisons with scenarios where informed consent was an issue. And besides, you are entirely free to choose when to finish each mission, just as you were free to choose when to finish each mission in ME1. If you wanted, you could leave your machine on indefinitely in both cases.

In the end it comes down to how the game flows as to wether the immersion is broken or not, and the way ME2 flows is very disjointed.

Here's the thing. Every RPG's flow is disjointed. You have moments of intense action, moments of calm where you converse with others, moments where nothing happens because you're checking your inventory or skills or emails or whatever. Compare ME1's pacing to, say, Uncharted or Prince of Persia, where the action is always happening.

The way ME1 flows is almost seamless by comparison.  Airlocks/elevators instead of loading screens, proper conversations with UNC mission givers instead of emails, and full squad debriefings after each major plot mission instead of a static TIM screen. 

ME1's flow is highly disjointed. Sometimes you are fighting for your life; sometimes you are talking to random NPCs; sometimes you are listening to elevator music. ME2 is no different in this regard; it just makes it more obvious.

If you want, think of ME2's mission complete screen as the equivalent of the afterglow after a big tabletop gaming session where the GM hands out XP.

[nutshell43]

I don't have a problem with the screen per se, more with the fact that it is a very visible symptom of a larger problem (namely turning ME into a corridor shooter).



I also don't like how it and the email system is used to eliminate follow up conversations. So you saved husband, daughter and dog of that desperate lady and all you get is a Cerberus report and an email?

It's nice that you don't *have* to have those conversations to complete quests but they should at least be available (and it shouldn't be that hard. A line or two of platitudes with Shepard offering some stock phrases in reply =)

[hong]

You do get those conversations as well. There's the krogan on the citadel, and several people on Ilium.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

With people still constantly talking of how Shep 'pops' up everywhere after the Mission Complete screen, Shepard 'popped' up at the CIC after visiting any planet in ME that wasn't a hub planet with a ship port. I'm sorry but it just seems funny how people seem to forget that.



Also I still see people talking about debriefs... considering that this topic has been stupidly put in the 'no spoiler' section I find it hard to say what I want to as it might spoil it for some people yet to play (PS3 users). But I'll try my best...



Planet with former colleague - Afterwards a nice chat with TIM, then a little chat with Jacob. There was no real need to have a full on 'squad' debrief for this mission.

Ship in space - Another conversation with TIM followed by chat with Miranda, Mordin and Jacob. Once again no real need for anyone else to be involved. Only thing I would probably say is that when you went to speak to the other squad members there should've been an option to talk about it in case they were on the mission (seeing as TIM does hint that good idea for Shep to do this).

Derelict ship where an item is obtained - Forgotten if we had a chat with TIM after this one but we definitly have one with Miranda and Jacob and EDI is involved, again no real need for other squaddies present.

Event after another event - Joker, Jacob, Miranda and EDI involved, definitly no reason for anyone else due to nature of previous event

Big damn hero time meeting - Everyone is there for obvious reason, this is all about why they were recruited.

Recruitment + Loyalty missions - Jacob and EDI for most of the former alongside the recruited person, for the latter only a few had them, one including Miranda and TIM as well for obvious reasons. Oh and of course 2 instances where 2 squaddies and Joker were involved. No need for other squadmates in the particular instances to be there and no real need for a proper debrief anyway.

N7 missions - There never was a debrief after UNC missions and only a few of them had cut-scenes involving Shepard, Joker and either Hackett or someone else. Ok so a fair number of N7 missions had 'emails' but people seem to think that Bioware can get VAs off of trees to do random snippets of dialogue for everything. Considering resources, a quick email or a load of VAs hired for tiny parts... I know which one I'd go with and sadly it isn't the latter (yes if Bioware had money to throw away, am sure they would do it, but they don't).



One other thing I forgot to repost again with regard Shepard popping to the CIC in ME2 just like they did in ME after visiting a non-HUB planet. When going to/from those same planets there were loading screens as well just like there was in ME2. So I find it odd how people can claim ME2 had lots of loading screens when the only 'extra' ones came from the Elevators and the de-contamination scenes and as has been said before, those ones replaced the visual loading screens which took a lot longer to load up.



I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but to me it just begs belief when people make such comments about ME2 as if the things they talk of were either not in it or not in ME when they clearly were.



As I've said before, I think that the screen could be altered/improved to make it more immersive by, ditching the 'TIM sat on his chair' in the background and turning it more into looking like a 'datapad' screen, with maybe a mini cut-scene (non voiced) of Kelly or someone handing Shepard the datapad (like as seen in a cut-scene in ME2) and then it turning to the datapad screen with the data on it looking even more like a report than it does in the current MC screen with the more OOC type info more out of the way than the other stuff. Put a 'skip' option in the cut-scene so that if people want to they can skip the whole MC screen. What is there to not like about that idea? People that do like the MC screen for the info it provides get to still be able to see it and people that don't like it don't need to see it. Everybody wins.

[uzivatel]

There is nothing wrong about it, its just victim of the OMG_not_RPG crowd.

Chignon wrote...

Because there was once a game called Mass Effect 1 which had a debriefing with the whole crew after every major mission.

The whole crew in ME1 was usually six members, the debriefing thing only happened after some 3 missions.
ME2 has this as well, except only with relevant characters and after more missions.

[The Spamming Troll]

Jerecaine wrote...

Granted im all for opinions and stuff, but the mission complete screen issue in ME2 seems like a very small scale thing for people to hate. I dont see why it's such an issue personally, so maybe someone can explain their reason for it.

because ME1 did it better. after completing the missions on feros ill never forget walking through zhus hope and noticing all the missing people. now when im done with a mission in ME2 i get a popup mission complete screen showing the illusive man, which hasnt stayed up for more then 3 seconds ever since the first time i saw it.

as much as i dont like walking, id rather walk to my ship, then get a minja gaiden mission complete screen.

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Jerecaine wrote...

Granted im all for opinions and stuff, but the mission complete screen issue in ME2 seems like a very small scale thing for people to hate. I dont see why it's such an issue personally, so maybe someone can explain their reason for it.

because ME1 did it better. after completing the missions on feros ill never forget walking through zhus hope and noticing all the missing people. now when im done with a mission in ME2 i get a popup mission complete screen showing the illusive man, which hasnt stayed up for more then 3 seconds ever since the first time i saw it.

as much as i dont like walking, id rather walk to my ship, then get a minja gaiden mission complete screen.

Yeah I think that is the issue for me.  It isn't so much a screen exisiting, it is the poof you killed the last badguy you are now in the ship.  It makes it feel to much like I'm on random dungeon find in wow and I just got teleported itno the instance and now that we beat it Iget teleported back to where I was grinding.  No real contextual elements for where I was at either before or after the quest.  It is a sympton of the problem I have where the mission areas are seperate little worlds from the rest of the universe.  I can see the logic to some degree, on a planet I'm never going to randomly walk past liara's apartment since I have no idea where it is, and it is unlikely it is in the small area they created.  But those should be areas I can return to once I discover them, unless I blew them up or something.  I should take a taxi to her block and walk to her aprtment, and be able to do so any time in the game from the point I discovered it.  Hell even Mario can return to the levels he beat.   It just makes it feel more like a world instead of I'm on level 7-3 of the game. 

[Evil Johnny 666]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

With people still constantly talking of how Shep 'pops' up everywhere after the Mission Complete screen, Shepard 'popped' up at the CIC after visiting any planet in ME that wasn't a hub planet with a ship port. I'm sorry but it just seems funny how people seem to forget that.

One other thing I forgot to repost again with regard Shepard popping to the CIC in ME2 just like they did in ME after visiting a non-HUB planet. When going to/from those same planets there were loading screens as well just like there was in ME2. So I find it odd how people can claim ME2 had lots of loading screens when the only 'extra' ones came from the Elevators and the de-contamination scenes and as has been said before, those ones replaced the visual loading screens which took a lot longer to load up.
.

Thing is, when you just fought with Saren, a bomb soon going to explode and kill everything in a certain base, it's quite normal that it ends with a cinematic instead of just pure teleportation like this. As with uncharted planets, I don't really seem how they could make the transitions from planet to ship particularly immersive, while with ME2 missions where you recruit squad members, most of the time you're in an hub world somewhere you walk around and return from where you came from. In ME1, there's only really Noveria which you get teleported as in ME2, and even then, you're the one taking the train (or whatever it is called) "to the Normandy".

As for loading screens in ME1, they were limited, as you said they came from elevators and de-contamination scenes, but you surely realised a big portion of the loading screens are elevators. Even then, the limited loading screens were more immersive in ME1; you take a Mass Relay for example and after seeing your ship get taking the MR, you get an animated MR as is loading screen (as in a real one and not a representation of different colors or elements not from in game). Bioware obviously tried to make the experience as immersive and seamless as possible in ME1. Yes it was not perfect, but it still worked and the intention was there, but in ME2 it is obvious they did not tried so as everything is replaced with loading screens like any other game with information about the game written, as well as you can't even leave the ship yourself which really makes a disconnect between the ship and areas planets you land on. In ME1 it truly felt as you were taking your ship to some place in the galaxy, landing on the citadel for example and leaving the ship through the front door and then returning, leaving, etc. You truly felt like walking your way around. In ME2, everything truly feels like levels and missions. It may be mostly an illusion in ME1, but it worked an thus made a much more immersive experience. It was really one of the very cool things I found in the original, one of the little things that made it such a great game to me.

[hecksard]

Apart from being somewhat useless information, and how it sometimes makes me feel that I'm playing a different kind of GTA-ish game or something, there's a lot of other info that I'd much prefer to see summarized somewhere. Like all the notices that disappear in a WTF? trice before I have a chance to read them. A proper log of this stuff somewhere would be most handy, but I guess that would really be serving the game-mechanic only, unless it was rationalised in-game somehow as Shepard's 'file' documenting his career beyond the mission log. But I'd happily settle for a list of the last 25 notices.

Modifié par hecksard, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Chignon]

uzivatel wrote...

There is nothing wrong about it, its just victim of the OMG_not_RPG crowd.

Chignon wrote...

Because there was once a game called Mass Effect 1 which had a debriefing with the whole crew after every major mission.

The whole crew in ME1 was usually six members, the debriefing thing only happened after some 3 missions.

If you would have bothered to read my posts properly then you would have noticed that I am not a "victim of OMG_not_RPG" as you put it. That does not mean that I have to like the Mission Complete screen, though.

I do not see how it matters that the crew in ME1 consisted of "only" six squadmembers. It is still the whole crew. The debriefings happened after Therum, Noveria, Feros and Virmire. Four in total, not three.

ME2 has this as well, except only with relevant characters and after more missions.

ME2 is a game that mostly builds upon forming and building a team and yet it helps to make the characters feel more separated from one another by excluding "non relevant" characters from mission debriefings.

Also, I'd rather take quality over quantity.

Modifié par Chignon, 06 décembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Nashiktal]

Why? Because I miss the mission debriefing.

[MasterSamson88]

I've been reading some of the comments here and some of it makes sense but then I also want to just go and add in a few remarks from what I've read.



As one of the posters said, the loading screen really only is about 3 seconds long if you choose it to be, I don't really see that big a break in immersion. I mean it is if you choose it to be I suppose. I'd be all for the report being sent to my terminal however.



Also I've seen some posts about elevators. People saying that along with elevators being taken out squad banter was too. Now I'm split as to what I think about the elevators in Mass Effect 1, on one side it wasn't a loading screen and it didn't break much immersion, on the other hand though it was incredibly pointless I think to have an elevator going on for how long it did. Squad banter really didn't take place in those elevators either. I mean once in a blue moon sure, they would say something, but 95% of the time it was the intercom once again, telling me that Emily Wong broke the story on Fist, again.



The Elevators could come back I think, but if they did they'd need better execution to justify not just putting a loading screen there. The characters should say something, it should be interesting, it shouldn't be some awkward comment then 10 more seconds of totally silent elevator ride.



Heck what I'd like is maybe instead of some blank elevator we can actually look at a vista in front of us through the window of the elevator as we go up some 100 stories in an instant. Maybe the squadies comment on that vista. Another suggestion is maybe some kind of commercial from whatever planet your on on a TV in the front of the elevator or something. Some kind of humorous commercial or what have you.



Now as for loading screens when going planet to planet. I mean nothing really changed there in 2 except the loading screen really. Instead of staring at a mass relay for a while instead we get something a little more professional looking.



As for debriefing's, those were in Mass Effect 2 weren't they? I mean they certainly weren't as long as they were in ME1 but that's not really a bad thing either. One of the more boring conversations I saw in ME1 were the debriefings actually. I mean there would be a few hunks of meaty dialog but then Liara would go on and on about the Prothean's and how cool it was I had information on them. Then we'd see the vision again. The longer debriefings in ME1 made more sense in some ways than they would have in ME2 I think. In ME1 there was a large over arching plot of finding the conduit and because of this every mission contributed information in some way to that mission. Because of that it needed to be talked over after the mission. In ME2 however most of the missions are simply recruitment missions, where you find a guy, recruit that guy, and then welcome him aboard without much being given to the overarching plot of the Omega 4 Relay so no real point to drag it on. Besides the real plot of ME2 I think is building a great team. Going through the relay is simply the result of this.



Anyway enough of my mindless banter. There's some pretty good topics being pulled out of a simple mission complete screen.