239 réponses à ce sujet

[haberman13]

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"



Fact: people who are against the loading screen are nerds, who waste their lives in video games



Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins



Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be



Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

[LPPrince]

Let me fix that up for you.

haberman13 wrote...

Opinion: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Opinion: people who are against the loading screen are nerds, who waste their lives in video games

Opinion: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

Opinion: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Opinion: XP/inventories are things of the past

There we go! All better.

[catabuca]

Fact: there are no facts just opinions.

[haberman13]

Fact: ME2 > ME1

Fact: CoD > ME2

Fact: ME1 is trash for nerds

Fact: BW is evolving into a better company that will be able to stand up against the Halos/Gears devs

Modifié par haberman13, 07 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

haberman13 wrote...

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Fact: people who are against the loading screen are nerds, who waste their lives in video games

Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic here.



Personally, ME2 is a great game, just a poor rpg.

[Warlock Angel22]

ME2 is a good RPG. I don't like the mission complete screen though. A loading screen is fine. Similar to KOTOR. No need to say mission complete. Best to keep the feeling of a real mission. Although this is the least thing I care about changing if something had to be changed in the game.

[Luigitornado]

I agree with AdmiralCheese...



And people seem to forget that ME had a loading screen. So saying that loading screens were absent in ME is not true.

[haberman13]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Fact: people who are against the loading screen are nerds, who waste their lives in video games

Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic here.



Personally, ME2 is a great game, just a poor rpg.

Fact: I am not being sarcastic

Fact: inventories are too complex

Fact: XP is for nerds who like nerdiness

Fact: CoD is ever-lasting, the be all and end all, the alpha and omega

Fact: ME2 was flawless

[haberman13]

Fact: ME2 loading screens were a welcome addition by everyone except people in this thread

Fact: ME1 was boring

Modifié par haberman13, 07 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[kill_switch_423]

^^Lol

^Anyone taking him seriously deserves to be offended.

Anywho, I'd rather the team spent development resources on tying up all the loose ends and giving us a satisfying conclusion to the trilogy rather than focus on making something as trivial as a screen to make the game "more immersive."

Modifié par kill_switch_423, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

AmstradHero wrote...

When I first played through ME1, I took the elevators around the citadel pretty much everywhere. But on subsequently playthroughs, I ignored them wherever I could and used the fast travel terminals. So why didn't people complain about the fast travel terminals in ME1?

Or wait, in ME1, when you wanted to change systems, you got a loading screen. Did that kill immersion too?

People complaining about the mission complete screen scream to be as people who are just looking for something to complain about. It breaks immersion? Come on, it's providing information from TIM's point of view about what happened on the mission. Didn't you notice he has a little description about what you've done and the outcomes/his opinion on it?  Or were you too busy thinking "This is terrible, it says Mission Complete"? Think of it as a mandatory mini-codex entry about your exploits?

Consider that the mission complete screen provides reminders about any upgrades or supplies you picked up on a mission. This would be a conscious choice from the designers to remind players about the potential improvements available for their team. Whine and moan about "dumbing down" all you want, but this is actually a good thing, because in the rush of the action of the game, you might forget about what you'd picked up early in the mission. 

Don't give me the "console kiddies can't remember anything" rubbish, because if someone gets so engrossed in the story and actually playing the game, then the designers have done a better job than if everyone finishes a mission and goes "oh, I picked up an extra weapon, 2 element zero upgrades,  heavy weave upgrade and an increased shotgun clip." The latter indicates that the actual gameplay content it less interesting than "the loot" that people gained. If the primary focus of your gaming experience is on the loot that you pick up, then your focus on the meta-game experience, or the "rewards" that the game keeps dishing out rather than the experience of the game itself. Which of these two represents weaker interest in the game?

a) "What cool item am I going to pick up next?"

"What's going to happen next?"

If you answered (, sorry, but you're wrong. As soon as the primary focus of your gameplay experience is on loot and rewards, you're not focusing on story or the action of the gameplay. Mission complete screens allow the missions to focus entirely on story and gameplay, and leave the meta-game "what loot did I get?" question to intermediate parts. Ditching ME1's cumbersome inventory and hordes of duplicate boring items was one of the best things that ME2 did. The mission complete screen is a necessary contributor to that change, reminding players of the "meta-game" between the action and story in a quickly digestible form.

If we compare in-game/cinematic mission debriefs, the main mission debriefs in ME1 were pretty much akin to the "core" (Freedom's Progress, Horizon, Reaper IFF) mission debriefs in ME2. Where ME1 does surpass ME2 on this front are the missions where Admiral Hackett gives you a call to discuss the outcome of the mission. I'm going to assume it was too expensive to get Martin Sheen to record lines for every significant mission, hence the mission complete screens.

 

wizardryforever wrote...

Are people's senses of immersion really that fragile, that a single screen completely breaks it?  Really?  The mission complete screen has tIM's input on the mission, which can be quite lengthy if it's a main mission.  It also has all of the information on things you gathered over the course of the mission.  XP, credits, weapons, new sqaudmates/powers, and resources.  These are things that plenty of people (not just "console kiddies" or "shooter crowd") would forget about in the heat of the moment.  It's nice to not have to check every screen to see what's new, it's all summed up nicely in the mission complete screen.

Can people really not use their imagination thinking, "hey, Kelly or Miranda may have given me this report," or "I've hacked into the Illusive man's private files, score!"  The only thing on the mission complete screen that is a meta-game construct is the XP count, and maybe new squadmate powers.  Everything else is in universe.  That spells immersion to me.

Also, on the subject of XP for kills vs. XP for missions.  Keep it XP for missions.  People should not be given more XP if they take the bloodiest path possible.  Diplomatic or stealth related solutions to missions should have just as much credence.  For some reason XP for kills just seems more artificial to me.

ThePatriot101 wrote...



Personally, I think if people complain about the immersion-bashing "Mission Complete" screen they should also complain about the immersion of the gameply.  [sarcasm] I mean, how immersive is holding a button that stops in-game time so you can casually decide if your teammates should attack one enemy or another or deciding whether to pick biotic Throw or tech Overload?  Even with hotkeying abilities to the buttons you can only do that to three at most.  And what's with all those conversation bits where you can just not do anything and everyone patiently waits for Shepard to say anything even for hours on end? [/sarcasm]

These were the three most sensible posts I saw here. Needless to say I kind of liked them, but if TIM isn't my main mission provider then I don't need them anymore. That is all. Thank you everyone who wrote the comments I quoted.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[uzivatel]

He may be well known troll, but...

haberman13 wrote...

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

I kind of agree with him there...

Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

The publishers would probably agree on this one...

Modifié par uzivatel, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Vena_86]

uzivatel wrote...

He may be well known troll, but...

haberman13 wrote...

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

I kind of agree with him there...

Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

The publishers would probably agree on this one...

Calling facts on subjective views. How classy.

And taking profit as the one and only argument...

Fact: Fast food is the best food in the world
Fact: Twilight is an amazing movie series.
Fact: Justin Bieber is a great musician.
Fact: Microsoft Products are of highest quality.
Fact: Paris Hilton is a nice person.
Fact: World of Warcraft is the best game evor! (oops no shooter? how did that happen?)

Oh wait these arn't facts.
1+1=2 now that is a fact

Oh and
Fact: ME2 actually does have XP and a gimped inventory
logic error and troll detected...everywhere!

Modifié par Vena_86, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

ThePatriot101 wrote...



Personally, I think if people complain about the immersion-bashing "Mission Complete" screen they should also complain about the immersion of the gameply.  [sarcasm] I mean, how immersive is holding a button that stops in-game time so you can casually decide if your teammates should attack one enemy or another or deciding whether to pick biotic Throw or tech Overload?  Even with hotkeying abilities to the buttons you can only do that to three at most.  And what's with all those conversation bits where you can just not do anything and everyone patiently waits for Shepard to say anything even for hours on end? [/sarcasm]

A game is a game, there's no way around not realizing this while playing. But why do you think immersion is such a talked about element? Because we like feeling immersed as possible. The Mission Complete screen isn't immersive and certainly is an easy element to take out. Taking pausing combat would make it less complex and deep, this it would make a lesser game. It's all about optimizing immersion and gameplay, obviously the MC screen has nothing to do with optimizing gameplay. You don't care about immersion? Fine. But please, don't try to tell us how we should view immersion. If you don't care about immersion, don't talk about the immersion component of the MC screen. You can still say you think it doesn't detract of course. But no matter if there's 50 non immersive elements in a game, 50 is still more immersive than 51.

[ThePatriot101]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

ThePatriot101 wrote...



Personally, I think if people complain about the immersion-bashing "Mission Complete" screen they should also complain about the immersion of the gameply.  [sarcasm] I mean, how immersive is holding a button that stops in-game time so you can casually decide if your teammates should attack one enemy or another or deciding whether to pick biotic Throw or tech Overload?  Even with hotkeying abilities to the buttons you can only do that to three at most.  And what's with all those conversation bits where you can just not do anything and everyone patiently waits for Shepard to say anything even for hours on end? [/sarcasm]

A game is a game, there's no way around not realizing this while playing. But why do you think immersion is such a talked about element? Because we like feeling immersed as possible. The Mission Complete screen isn't immersive and certainly is an easy element to take out. Taking pausing combat would make it less complex and deep, this it would make a lesser game. It's all about optimizing immersion and gameplay, obviously the MC screen has nothing to do with optimizing gameplay. You don't care about immersion? Fine. But please, don't try to tell us how we should view immersion. If you don't care about immersion, don't talk about the immersion component of the MC screen. You can still say you think it doesn't detract of course. But no matter if there's 50 non immersive elements in a game, 50 is still more immersive than 51.

On the contrary, I do care about the immersive aspects of video games.  It's partly why I like the Mass Effect series.  Just that the idea of throwing gripes at Bioware to get rid of a screen which helpfully tells you how much experience you earn, what mission results you achieved, what tech upgrades you acquired, as well as how much mineral resources you collected that you can instantly skip in less than a second is being a bit on the greedy and picky side.  Bioware made such a great game that tons of people like and of all things some individuals complain about a second-long screen after a mission.  It's like your boyfriend giving you a wedding ring with 20 carat gold and you complaining that it wasn't 21 carat gold. 

I personally find the Mission Complete screen helpful.  I'm not such a bean counter that I can remember exactly how many tech upgrades or mineral resources I collected in a mission, nor how much experience I earned.  It helps remind me if I got something really nice or bumped up a level.  And if I'm not interested in reading it, for any number of reasons, I can just hit "B" on the controller and bang I'm back on the Normandy.  No fuss whatsoever.  And the game doesn't punish me because I skip it.

Personally I think your last analogy is a little flawed and more indicative of the crowd that is complaining.  It states that no matter how many immersive elements a game has, it being anywhere from 52 to 100 to 1000, 50 non-immersive elements will always factor in more than 51.  But if a game gives you 1000 immersive elements and 50 non-immersive elements should you complain that it should have 49 non-immersive elements?  It's a little petty to ignore all of the great things the game gives ya and just complain about the insignificant inconveniences.  Although, it gives me the reassurance of knowing that people take more clout in complaining about the minor bits than challenging the popular opinion which is that ME2 is a very very great game.  It let's me know I'm on a better standing, siding with a game that gives me a very satisfying experience rather than letting minor gripes get to me and my preconceptions of a "great" gaming experience.

[kmcd5722]

Vena_86 wrote...

uzivatel wrote...

He may be well known troll, but...

haberman13 wrote...

Fact: ME2 is a better game than 99% of other "RPGs"

Fact: ME2 is what an RPG should be

Fact: XP/inventories are things of the past

I kind of agree with him there...

Fact: shooters are better than RPGs, as evidenced by profit margins

The publishers would probably agree on this one...

Calling facts on subjective views. How classy.

And taking profit as the one and only argument...

Fact: Fast food is the best food in the world
Fact: Twilight is an amazing movie series.
Fact: Justin Bieber is a great musician.
Fact: Microsoft Products are of highest quality.
Fact: Paris Hilton is a nice person.
Fact: World of Warcraft is the best game evor! (oops no shooter? how did that happen?)

Oh wait these arn't facts.
1+1=2 now that is a fact

Oh and
Fact: ME2 actually does have XP and a gimped inventory
logic error and troll detected...everywhere!

boom. roasted.

COD is mindless. 

[Terror_K]

As has been brought up before, when you pause combat (if you choose to do so. Being a PC player I pretty much never do) it's something you have control over. The "Mission Complete" screens are jarring and sudden, serving to ruin the glow of the narrative and gameplay, reminding you that this is a game and taking you out of it not just by appearing suddenly, but by chopping the game into mini chunklets and making it feel less like a living, breathing world and more like a game with levels or zones.



The gold ring comparison doesn't really work either, since I personally don't find that much value at all in the "Mission Complete" screens. Most of the information you get off them you could either get through your journal or you already get as you come across it (e.g. mineral resources and upgrades, etc. still appear as one of the annoying, giant child-like pop-ups when you collect them). The only exception is XP, and that's not even presented well, given that it's just a meaningless lump sum without context. I personally feel XP would be better dolled out as you earned it via tasks... even if it had to take the form of those annoying large pop-ups.

[CARL_DF90]

Strange that some people have an issue with it because it never bothered me at all. In fact, I rather liked them.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Terror_K wrote...

As has been brought up before, when you pause combat (if you choose to do so. Being a PC player I pretty much never do) it's something you have control over. The "Mission Complete" screens are jarring and sudden, serving to ruin the glow of the narrative and gameplay, reminding you that this is a game and taking you out of it not just by appearing suddenly, but by chopping the game into mini chunklets and making it feel less like a living, breathing world and more like a game with levels or zones.

I really don't see the big problem with it.... but how about something like this:

An over the shoulder view of shepard sitting in the drop shuttle (forget it's name) heading back to the normandy and little hologram display screens pop up telling you the same type of information? It's like a loading screen/mission complete screen but would kind of keep the immersion and get rid of the shepard is just suddenly back on the normandy stuff....would help everyone's vaunted "immersion".

[CARL_DF90]

Hmm, that's actually a great idea. Hey, Bioware! You listening? Taking notes?

[Terror_K]

Yeah, that's not bad. Find a way of giving me some context as to my XP so that I know that it actually means something and that'd work.

[The Spamming Troll]

ThePatriot101 wrote...
 ...a screen which helpfully tells you how much experience you earn, what mission results you achieved, what tech upgrades you acquired, as well as how much mineral resources you collected...

so THATS what the mission complete screen says!!!

ive never even so much as scrolled through whatever you can scroll through on that screen.  sometimes things need to be included, and sometimes they dont. this is one of those tings that doesnt. it could easily be shown in a friggin Email anyways, since ME2 has friggin Email. id say remove it. this only belongs in silly ninja gaiden games, not one of the best bioware games ever made.

same for minigames. what the hell is the point of me playing memory or conect the dots?

[AlanC9]

You don't like reading the information on the mission complete screen. Therefore, nobody else should be allowed to see that information? You're serious?