141 réponses à ce sujet

[Druss99]

This show has been running on Sunday nights in the UK for the past month or so I've caught a few of the 2 hour episodes. Its all theory and conjecture only presenting the "evidence" for the theory and nothing to discredit it. Things like "They built statues that look like modern aeroplanes so they must have had their own flying craft back then too which could only have come from aliens!". It was entertaining but completely pointless if your only going to present one side of the story.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

@Swordfishtrombone. I mean technique (not technics) - ah idiot English language!

[TheMufflon]

Garbage Master wrote...

ah idiot English language!

Yes, clearly it is the fault of the English language that you haven't learned it properly.

[Swordfishtrombone]

^ And yet simple stone monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens capable of crossing the stars would not have mastered materials capable of weathering the ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock? THAT does seem to strech credulity.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

TheMufflon wrote...

Garbage Master wrote...

ah idiot English language!

Yes, clearly it is the fault of the English language that you haven't learned it properly.

No! Technique is french look at its -ique

[Ecaiki]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ And yet simple stone
monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens capable of crossing
the stars would not have mastered materials capable of weathering the
ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock? THAT does seem to
strech credulity.

Actually if the pyramids are anything to go by stone is an excellent choice in building materials. Just because they are super advanced doesn't mean they need to use some super metal to build with.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[TheMufflon]

Garbage Master wrote...

[Hypothesis] but I don't think a 50000 years old Prothean monument can exist in Earth, because Earth's Nature spoils and absorbs it even if it had firm substances and materials. Everything is going to absorb in earth after thousands of years ...

Except we've found artifacts that are far older than that.

[ModerateOsprey]

I agree with swordfishtrombones's statement. Speculation may be at the very beginnings of a theory, but much rigour in thinking and lots of proper research needs to be applied before it can be presented as evidence. Much of this: 'Oh wow, did cavemen really do that?', 'No chance, gotta be aliens' thinking is just silly, IMO.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ And yet simple stone monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens capable of crossing the stars would not have mastered materials capable of weathering the ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock? THAT does seem to strech credulity.

With our current Technology we cant produce structures which can survive more than 1500 years (or if we want to build a great pyramid in a desert with firm Stones 10000 years). No Material has the power(inside atom-molecule) to survive the Geological influences of Earth forever: collapsing is Imminent

[Swordfishtrombone]

Ecaiki wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ And yet simple stone
monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens capable of crossing
the stars would not have mastered materials capable of weathering the
ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock? THAT does seem to
strech credulity.

Actually if the pyramids are anything to go by stone is an excellent choice in building materials. Just because they are super advanced doesn't mean they need to use some super metal to build with.

And you wouldn't expect them to use any advanced PARTS in the structure? If you take any modern construction project, you're sure to find steel reinforcements at the very least.

The pyramids were made of limestone, from quarries along the nile. Limestone is far from the strongest rock material that could be used to build a long lasting structure - it just happened to be the one available, and relatively easy to quarry.

Now why would the aliens, with access to unimaginably advanced technology, settle for something like this?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

TheMufflon wrote...

Garbage Master wrote...

[Hypothesis] but I don't think a 50000 years old Prothean monument can exist in Earth, because Earth's Nature spoils and absorbs it even if it had firm substances and materials. Everything is going to absorb in earth after thousands of years ...

Except we've found artifacts that are far older than that.

I'm talking about standing buildings and structures, not some Fossils underground

[Ecaiki]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

And you wouldn't expect them to use any advanced PARTS in the structure? If you take any modern construction project, you're sure to find steel reinforcements at the very least.

The pyramids were made of limestone, from quarries along the nile. Limestone is far from the strongest rock material that could be used to build a long lasting structure - it just happened to be the one available, and relatively easy to quarry.

Now why would the aliens, with access to unimaginably advanced technology, settle for something like this?

Well of course, because our buildings require such things.  However if you're building something out of solid stone then all you need is to make the stones interlock properly, like lego.

An abundant and close by material, why wouldn't they take advantage of it?  I'm serious, those pyramids have been standing there for at least 4,500 years, and in that time the desert has only managed to strip the smooth outer casing from them.  If you've seen the Life After People series then you know we'll be lucky to have anything standing in 300 years.

Personally I'm not totally convinced it was aliens at all, but either way we knew something incredible, and then we didn't.  That to me is the real issue, that we lost such wonderful knowledge for reasons we don't know.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 03 décembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

^ TheMufflon might have missread 50000 as 5000. Just a suggestion.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Ecaiki wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ And yet simple stone
monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens capable of crossing
the stars would not have mastered materials capable of weathering the
ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock? THAT does seem to
strech credulity.

Actually if the pyramids are anything to go by stone is an excellent choice in building materials. Just because they are super advanced doesn't mean they need to use some super metal to build with.

And you wouldn't expect them to use any advanced PARTS in the structure? If you take any modern construction project, you're sure to find steel reinforcements at the very least.

The pyramids were made of limestone, from quarries along the nile. Limestone is far from the strongest rock material that could be used to build a long lasting structure - it just happened to be the one available, and relatively easy to quarry.

Now why would the aliens, with access to unimaginably advanced technology, settle for something like this?

- to show their(:unknown) power and Intelligence
- to build a Tomb for the Great Pharaohs (to become ready for ascension to another world)

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ecaiki wrote...

Well of course, because our buildings require such things.  However if you're building something out of solid stone then all you need is to make the stones interlock properly, like lego.

An abundant and close by material, why wouldn't they take advantage of it?  I'm serious, those pyramids have been standing there for at least 4,500 years, and in that time the desert has only managed to strip the smooth outer casing from them.  If you've seen the Life After People series then you know we'll be lucky to have anything standing in 300 years.

Personally I'm not totally convinced it was aliens at all, but either way we knew something incredible, and then we didn't.  That to me is the real issue, that we lost such wonderful knowledge for reasons we don't know.

Pretty much my stance as well.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Ecaiki wrote...

An abundant and close by material, why wouldn't they take advantage of it?  I'm serious, those pyramids have been standing there for at least 4,500 years, and in that time the desert has only managed to strip the smooth outer casing from them.  If you've seen the Life After People series then you know we'll be lucky to have anything standing in 300 years.

The native Arabs had stolen all outer layers of stones from the Pyramids to use in their houses

[Swordfishtrombone]

Ecaiki wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

And you wouldn't expect them to use any advanced PARTS in the structure? If you take any modern construction project, you're sure to find steel reinforcements at the very least.

The pyramids were made of limestone, from quarries along the nile. Limestone is far from the strongest rock material that could be used to build a long lasting structure - it just happened to be the one available, and relatively easy to quarry.

Now why would the aliens, with access to unimaginably advanced technology, settle for something like this?

Well of course, because our buildings require such things.  However if you're building something out of solid stone then all you need is to make the stones interlock properly, like lego.

An abundant and close by material, why wouldn't they take advantage of it?  I'm serious, those pyramids have been standing there for at least 4,500 years, and in that time the desert has only managed to strip the smooth outer casing from them.  If you've seen the Life After People series then you know we'll be lucky to have anything standing in 300 years.

Personally I'm not convinced it was aliens at all, but either way we knew something incredible, and then we didn't.  That to me is the real issue, that we lost such wonderful knowledge for reasons we don't know.

Yet even a pure stone structure can benefit from modern technology - where are the wirings for the lighting? Why use torches that polute the air and are inconvenient, when you could simply wire electric lights? Why no modern tools left behind? The desert environment of the pyramids is pretty optimal for preserving anything burried - if there were aliens involved, surely there'd be SOME practical evidence left behind that could not plausibly fit into a historical picture without them?

The problem with the alien archeology enthusiasts - one of them - is that once you decide you've got an answer ("aliens did it!"), you lose the motivation to keep looking. Real archeologists DO keep looking, and find evidence of the building processes, and often ingenious techniques.

As to them having some knowledge that people afterwards didn't - that's hardly surpricing. Knowledge gets lost all the time - hand-crafting skills that fall out of favor, or are no longer needed, often are forgotten, for example. On a larger scale, empires fall, are burnt to the ground, and many clever techniques and advances are lost in the process. There's hardly a mystery to this.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

^ TheMufflon might have missread 50000 as 5000. Just a suggestion.

But even if he did, his point is still valid and stands. 

A point which I answered in a post above.


Quoting myself:

"^ And yet simple stone monuments often persist. Do you think that aliens
capable of crossing the stars would not have mastered materials capable
of weathering the ravages of time and erosion better than simple rock?
THAT does seem to strech credulity."

[Ecaiki]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Yet even a pure stone structure can benefit from modern technology - where are the wirings for the lighting? Why use torches that polute the air and are inconvenient, when you could simply wire electric lights? Why no modern tools left behind? The desert environment of the pyramids is pretty optimal for preserving anything burried - if there were aliens involved, surely there'd be SOME practical evidence left behind that could not plausibly fit into a historical picture without them?

The problem with the alien archeology enthusiasts - one of them - is that once you decide you've got an answer ("aliens did it!"), you lose the motivation to keep looking. Real archeologists DO keep looking, and find evidence of the building processes, and often ingenious techniques.

As to them having some knowledge that people afterwards didn't - that's hardly surpricing. Knowledge gets lost all the time - hand-crafting skills that fall out of favor, or are no longer needed, often are forgotten, for example. On a larger scale, empires fall, are burnt to the ground, and many clever techniques and advances are lost in the process. There's hardly a mystery to this.

You're assuming they used anything like our electrical system.  One example I've seen that lends credibility to them having such technology is lack of soot stains within the pyramids, and that makes no sense when you take into account how dark they are.  So if they weren't using torches in there just what did they use for light?

It seems you're the oppisite extreme, you've decided that it couldn't possibly have been aliens and so ignore anything that suggests it might have been.

While that's true it still doesn't explain how we can't replicate their supposedly simple feats with our modern technology.  If all they really did to build the pyramids was drag stones around then we should already be able to reproduce them, yet engineers have admitted that it's currently impossible.  I find it suspicious that we seem to have lost such a vast quantity of knowledge, when there's really no excuse for it.  Yes Rome fell, but it didn't disappear, it morphed and eventually moved into the "modern" era.

[Ecaiki]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

@Ecaiki, The desert preserves things well, and furthermore what makes you think that the Egyptians are not capable of creating a substance that is resistant to soot stains. After all it was the Egyptians who started the modern day calendar we use and began mapping the stars.

What is with this mind set that the Egyptians are fools?

And explain how Rome moved into the Modern Era?

They weren't the only ones, and I think (though I'll have to double check) the Mayans did it better.

As far as thinking they're fools, of course not!  They did build a civilisation that lasted several thousand years, you don't pull that off if you're stupid.  However that doesn't mean they didn't get outside help with building techniques and other technologies.

Roman society never died out, it fell to a degree, and changed a lot, but it never really disappeared.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

There is another Theory about these blocks of stone in Giza's Pyramids. It seems they are a type of Concrete-Cement the Egyptians were making with an unknown formula.

@Ecaiki, making electric bulbs isn't too hard and Egyptians were cable of it!

[Swordfishtrombone]

Ecaiki wrote...

You're assuming they used anything like our electrical system.  One example I've seen that lends credibility to them having such technology is lack of soot stains within the pyramids, and that makes no sense when you take into account how dark they are.  So if they weren't using torches in there just what did they use for light?

Simple oil lamps - of the kind that were common at the time - would do the trick, though soot marks can be washed off, and you generally find torch-handle fitting holes in the tombs gauged into the wall at regular intervals... which seems to suggest torches.

It seems you're the oppisite extreme, you've decided that it couldn't possibly have been aliens and so ignore anything that suggests it might have been.

No, I've decided no such thing - I however DO have a standard of evidence that corresponds to what science expects, and what proper archeology requires. This means that I do not take any current inability to explain how EXACTLY something was built as evidence of anything other than our own ignorance. I'm completely open to the idea of alien visitation, but I do require actual solid evidence, and not vague hand waving. The problem is that the advocates of alien archeology have lost credibility by presenting really bad, faulty "evidence" as proper evidence. How many of their claims do you have to investigate and find meritless, before you decide that it's probably not worth your time to look at the rest of their claims?

Aliens visiting the Earth and helping people build stuff is a remarkable claim, that would require remarkable evidence to be established, yet all that is given is conjecture, logical fallacy (argument from ignorance), and cherry picked evidence.

While that's true it still doesn't explain how we can't replicate their supposedly simple feats with our modern technology.  If all they really did to build the pyramids was drag stones around then we should already be able to reproduce them, yet engineers have admitted that it's currently impossible. 

And where did you learn that from? An alien archeology "documentary"? I don't know why engineers would "admit" any such thing, when you've got a regular guy moving several ton objects in his back yard, using simple leverage.

I find it suspicious that we seem to have lost such a vast quantity of knowledge, when there's really no excuse for it.  Yes Rome fell, but it didn't disappear, it morphed and eventually moved into the "modern" era.

You ASSUME that the quantity of knowledge lost was vast, when in fact, if you watched the video I posted earlier in this thread, you can see how simple things can be used to achieve amazing feats.

That we don't know exactly how the pyramids were built, does not mean that we don't have plausible hypothesis - we do have several. It's just that real archeologists don't declare that they know something without solid evidence that that was, in fact, how it was done.