197 réponses à ce sujet

[M-Taylor]

Statisticly (counting how many deaths that will/could/have occurred) I would have to say killing the Dalish Elves. You've not only wiped out an entire camp, you've also made tensions worse and could very likely be an out break of rebellion leading to war.



On a personal basis, I would have to say what you can do to the Arl of Redcliff is pretty bad. You can kill is wife, and then make a deal with a demon that doesn't even rescue his son. Loosing your entire family to someone can be a pretty nasty and evil descion, by my records anyway.

[Sarah1281]

CE Origin you can leave Shianni lying on the floor after being raped and letting her get raped again as well as letting all the other members of the bridal party get raped (and at least one more of them killed) in exchange for 40 sovereigns.

[Moondoggie]

Theres a decision in the city elf origin story where you can take a payment to let a guy rape a bunch of women thats probably the most evil as theres no way of justfying it except for greed which is an evil thing,

[CalJones]

Eamon's a bit of a douche, and I have no problem letting his wife die since she was largely responsible for what happened to Redcliffe. Selling out an innocent child to a demon, though, is low. I've never done that. And taking Caladrius up on his offer to sacrifice the elves in return for a constitution boost - that's pretty low as well.

There are also various murder knife opportunities which I feel are unwarranted.

[Moondoggie]

CalJones wrote...

Eamon's a bit of a douche, and I have no problem letting his wife die since she was largely responsible for what happened to Redcliffe. Selling out an innocent child to a demon, though, is low. I've never done that. And taking Caladrius up on his offer to sacrifice the elves in return for a constitution boost - that's pretty low as well.
There are also various murder knife opportunities which I feel are unwarranted.

Brother Genetivi totally is but hard to resist because it produces one of the funniest scenes in the game.

[Sarah1281]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

CE Origin you can leave Shianni lying on the floor after being raped and letting her get raped again as well as letting all the other members of the bridal party get raped (and at least one more of them killed) in exchange for 40 sovereigns.

I know I did that because I thought "well shianni getting raped isn't as bad as an entire alienage getting purged for killing the arls son!" and then next thing I know i'm getting arrested for stealing money!

Vaughan makes the deal with you because he has to or you will kill him. 40 sovereigns is a lot of money and you're just a 'knife-ear' to him and, if female, had had been planning on raping you as well. Why WOULDN'T he betray you? Trying to spare the Alienage is the only semi-valid reason I've heard for allowing him to keep the women but I don't feel that, even had the purge been entirely avoided (you can argue that Vaughan kept his word on that since Howe purged the Alienage once he took over), abandoning them there is any less of an evil act.

[Costin_Razvan]

There are also various murder knife opportunities which I feel are unwarranted.

That's a matter of opinion. I personally feel that it adds a bigger measure of immersion. People may disagree with killing Genitivi ( for instance ), but when you do it it's perfectly clear that the only choice if you want to secret kept is to kill him.

OP: How pray tell is badass= to evil huh? 

The most badass choice? Slaughtering the Elves. Feel insanely satisfying.

The most "evil" choice ( which can be subject of debate ). Is helping Zathrian slaughter the Werewolves.

 Why WOULDN'T he betray you? Trying to spare the Alienage is the only semi-valid reason I've heard for allowing him to keep the women but I don't feel that, even had the purge been entirely avoided (you can argue that Vaughan kept his word on that since Howe purged the Alienage once he took over), abandoning them there is any less of an evil act.

Bull ****. 

You will have to excuse me if I feel that sacrificing Shianni to be raped AFTER she is responsible for getting kidnapped by knocking Vaughn out ( not to say that Vaughn isn't responsible, but each side in a conflict played a part in it starting in the first place ) to save lives is perfectly worthwhile.

What you just posted is like saying that letting an entire town getting killed over one woman would be worth it. Well **** that logic.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[bleetman]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You will have to excuse me if I feel that sacrificing Shianni to be raped AFTER she is responsible for getting kidnapped by knocking Vaughn out ( not to say that Vaughn isn't responsible, but each side in a conflict played a part in it starting in the first place ) to save lives is perfectly worthwhile.

"Savour the hunt, boys. Take this little elven wench here, so young and vulnerable."

Sorry, I'm not going to blame a woman for defending herself.

[CalJones]

My current character is a male city elf who is a complete coward. He sold out Shianni and the female elves to Vaughan because he was scared of him. (He also left Redcliffe to the undead because he was too chicken to fight them). I haven't finished with this character yet - he's totally the opposite to the type of character I usually play and it's actually quite fun to take these options for the first time and see the responses. Do I like the fellow? No, absolutely not. But sometimes it's refreshing to do something different.

[Costin_Razvan]

Sorry, I'm not going to blame a woman for defending herself

I blame her for not thinking before acting. The best course of action would have been to kill those 3 and hide their bodies, instead she just knocks him out and lets his friends carry him out.

Smart move there, very smart move.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:04 .

[bleetman]

The alternative being, what? Both times Vaughn marched into the alienage, he had the same goal in mind. Even if they'd driven him out without smashing a bottle on the fool's head, he doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd give up. He'd either have gotten what he wanted the first time, or returned with soldiers anyway.

[edit]: Kill them? That's the alternative? And what, hope the guards outside the alienage who presumably saw him enter developed amnesia, I suppose.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Kill them? That's the alternative? And what, hope the guards outside the alienage who presumably saw him enter developed amnesia, I suppose.

If they don't find the body they can't place the blame on anyone. Urien ( who is the only one who can purge the Alienage ) would likely not have acted if he had no real proof.



A disappearance doesn't equal to murder, just bear that in mind.



And btw, the first time he marched in the Alienage he was an ass, but I think you are stretching it out a bit if you think he would have kidnapped a woman to rape her. He can't just do that without soldiers, and calling the soldiers to help him with that is actually a gamble for him, since his father would not approve at all ( after you accept his deal he mentions this ).



By provoking him, or well hurting his pride as a noble who got beaten up by a bunch of elves then what did you REALLY expect to happen?

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 Why WOULDN'T he betray you? Trying to spare the Alienage is the only semi-valid reason I've heard for allowing him to keep the women but I don't feel that, even had the purge been entirely avoided (you can argue that Vaughan kept his word on that since Howe purged the Alienage once he took over), abandoning them there is any less of an evil act.

Bull ****. 

You will have to excuse me if I feel that sacrificing Shianni to be raped AFTER she is responsible for getting kidnapped by knocking Vaughn out ( not to say that Vaughn isn't responsible, but each side in a conflict played a part in it starting in the first place ) to save lives is perfectly worthwhile.

What you just posted is like saying that letting an entire town getting killed over one woman would be worth it. Well **** that logic.

Can you please try to actually comprehend what I wrote before you lambast me for it? Honestly.

The part you quoted starts with 'Why WOULDN't he betray you?' which is asking what Vaughan's motivation for letting you walk off with his gold would be instead of getting you arrested which he does (but still doesn't have to mean he goes after the Alienage) and was in response to someone being surprised that Vaughan had him arrested for theft.

Then there's "Trying to spare the Alienage is the only semi-valid reason I've heard for allowing him to keep the women" which means that I'm acknowledging that you could let Vaughan go to save the Alienage and that that is not a stance without validity. I used the word 'semi-valid' because I was never convinced that he would keep his word.

Then there was" but I don't feel that, even had the purge been entirely avoided (you can argue that Vaughan kept his word on that since Howe purged the Alienage once he took over)," which actually showed that Vaughan did technically keep his word about not taking your actions out on the Alienage since the elves were rioting over the abduction/rape and Howe moved in and led the purge. It's also dealing with the hypothetical that if you play a CE Warden that leaves Shianni and the others the Alienage had not had the purge or riots to deal with. 
 
Finally, there was "abandoning them there is any less of an evil act" This part you can feel free to disagree with but it's also subjective and earlier I made a point to say that I felt it was evil and not that it was, without a doubt, evil.

Saying that abandoning people to be raped is evil is not, like you claimed, the same as saying that letting them get raped to save lives isn't worthwhile or that letting an entire town get killed to save one woman was worthwhile. I'm not even going to touch those.

I personally (and I'm SO not trying to state my opinion as fact) feel that there is no good option there. Had Vaughan kept his word, it would have been better for a greater number of people to leave Shianni and without metagaming you can't know what will be the result of either choice. Even if that result were for the best for many more people, that still doesn't mean that has to be a morally sound choice or that it can't be evil.

I'm not trying to say that if something is evil that it should never be done, just that even if it will lead to a better outcome or may even be necessary it can still be evil.

It is absolutely NOT 'bull****' for me to believe leaving people to be raped for whatever reason is an evil act. That is just a subjective moral judgement that doesn't automatically translate to action.

[Costin_Razvan]

Even if that result were for the best for many more people, that still doesn't mean that has to be a morally sound choice or that it can't be evil.

Who said that it was a morally sound choice? I certainly did not but...

It is absolutely NOT 'bull****' for me to believe leaving people to be raped for whatever reason is an evil act. That is just a subjective moral judgement that doesn't automatically translate to action.

...here I strongly disagree. If one only one cares for the welfare of one person over that of many then that person is "evil". To claim that evil is to leave a woman to be raped so that you can save lives is complete and utter BS in my mind.



But evil for me only equates to taking a course of action that is for your own benefit at the cost of others. Or saving those dear to you at the cost of many lives. Regardless of what argument can you bring, as long as there was the possibility of not having the Elves slaughtered then it was better then having the CERTAINTY of that happened.

[bleetman]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If they don't find the body they can't place the blame on anyone. Urien ( who is the only one who can purge the Alienage ) would likely not have acted if he had no real proof.

A disappearance doesn't equal to murder, just bear that in mind.

And btw, the first time he marched in the Alienage he was an ass, but I think you are stretching it out a bit if you think he would have kidnapped a woman to rape her. He can't just do that without soldiers, and calling the soldiers to help him with that is actually a gamble for him, since his father would not approve at all ( after you accept his deal he mentions this ).

Oh yes, humans certainly exercise a great deal of justice and fairness when it comes to dealing with elves, whose communities they purge whenever it suits them. Hell, the Denerim alienage has, according to the Denerim codex entry, been purged in the past whenever the populations grew too high. I also somehow doubt that anyone who raises a child with the attidudes Vaughn has is going to shrug his shoulders and forget about his son disappearing. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and all that.

As for him not being there to abduct elves, why not. As far as he's concerned, he's the Arl's son. Elves? Elves aren't even people. It's not that much of a stretch to guess his intentions when he marches into the alienage, grabs the nearest woman and says "Grab a wh*re and have a good time".

Modifié par bleetman, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is absolutely NOT 'bull****' for me to believe leaving people to be raped for whatever reason is an evil act. That is just a subjective moral judgement that doesn't automatically translate to action.

...here I strongly disagree. If one only one cares for the welfare of one person over that of many then that person is "evil". To claim that evil is to leave a woman to be raped so that you can save lives is complete and utter BS in my mind.

But evil for me only equates to taking a course of action that is for your own benefit at the cost of others. Or saving those dear to you at the cost of many lives. Regardless of what argument can you bring, as long as there was the possibility of not having the Elves slaughtered then it was better then having the CERTAINTY of that happened.

I am not claiming that it is an objectively evil thing, just a subjectively evil one. It's not 'Oh, this is evil' so much as 'Oh, I see this as evil' and I have a broader definition of evil. It's a difference of opinion on a subjective term, not a case of someone being wrong.

[Costin_Razvan]

I somehow doubt that anyone who raises a child with the attidudes Vaughn has is going to shrug his shoulders and forget about his son disappearing.

Who said he was going to forget? You are putting words in my mouth again. But to declare that Urien would purge the Alienage because his son disappeared in it IS a big stretch.

By best solution I refered to in the situation if you wanted to stop Vaughn from harassing the women, but the reality is that the elves are in no position to decided what Vaughn does unless they are clever about it. Deciding to knock him out and then let him leave was idiotic, and you can't argue it.

I suppose "it's better to die for your freedom" and "fight your oppressors." no matter the unrealistic odds stacked against you. Doesn't work so well as you may think it does.

It's not that much of a stretch to guess his intentions when he marches into the alienage, grabs the nearest woman and says "Grab a **** and have a good time".

What's he going to do? March out with that woman out from the Alienage in PLAIN sight? Oh yes he does it with his guards, but he knows his father won't just let it slide ( he pays you to keep your mouth shut after all ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[bleetman]

Who said he was going to forget? You are putting words in my mouth again. But to declare that Urien would purge the Alienage because his son disappeared in it IS a big stretch.

Unless Urien took over as arl of Denerim within the last couple of years, he's already purged the alienage multiple times for no other reason than because there's too many elves living there. How's it unreasonable to assume he wouldn't turn the place upside down after his son entered, never to be seen again?

Deciding to knock him out and then let him leave was idiotic, and you can't argue it.

And yet, I am. Strange.

What's he going to do? March out with that woman out from the Alienage in PLAIN sight? Oh yes he does it with his guards, but he knows his father won't just let it slide ( he pays you to keep your mouth shut after all ).

Yes? Elves aren't people to him. It'd attract no more attention than an armed patrol marching a group of elves out of the alienage, anyway.

Modifié par bleetman, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[maxernst]

I think the most evil thing you can do is take the deal with Connor's demon that he teaches you blood magic in return for allowing him to return to repossess Connor at a later time. Given the damage that demon did in Redcliffe, allowing him to come back and possess an adult (and presumably much more powerful) mage is a really wicked thing to do.

[Costin_Razvan]

maxernst wrote...

I think the most evil thing you can do is take the deal with Connor's demon that he teaches you blood magic in return for allowing him to return to repossess Connor at a later time. Given the damage that demon did in Redcliffe, allowing him to come back and possess an adult (and presumably much more powerful) mage is a really wicked thing to do.

I don't know. I would argue that slaughtering the Werewolves is far more evil given that they have been cursed for so long, for something they aren't responsible ( those that raped the girl are dead after all ).

But this comes close, especially when you have Isolde sacrificing herself for it.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

I think the most evil thing you can do is take the deal with Connor's demon that he teaches you blood magic in return for allowing him to return to repossess Connor at a later time. Given the damage that demon did in Redcliffe, allowing him to come back and possess an adult (and presumably much more powerful) mage is a really wicked thing to do.

Blood magic could help you defeat the Blight, though. Sleeping with her...not so much.

[Costin_Razvan]

Blood magic could help you defeat the Blight, though. Sleeping with her...not so much.

Wait...you can actually...uhm do that?



"Pukes."

[Sarah1281]

PC: I am willing to talk.

Desire Demon: Good. I prefer reasonable negotiation, whenever possible. Your goal is for me to release the boy's soul, is that right?

PC: Yes, that is right.

DD: What if you could persuade me to leave voluntarily? No fuss and no bloodshed.

PC: And why would you do such a thing?

DD: So you will at least... consider it? Let me make a proposition, then. I abandon the boy... for now. But I retain the contract he and I made, and many years from now I may return and claim what is mine. This will be long after whatever you want is done. In exchange, I will provide something of value to you. Something you desire. What say you?

PC: What would you give me, exactly?

DD: I offer much. Power. Knowledge. Pleasure. What is it you desire?

PC: I'll take pleasure, demon. Show me what you've got.

DD: Then allow me to show you what it means to touch the face of desire, creature. It is something you shall not soon forget.