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[Sarah1281]

If you make a deal with the demon in exchange for Connor's soul, why would Connor be acting strangely by the coronation? The demon is gone for the moment and not coming back for years. And when it comes back in years, would it automatically be able to retake Connor or would the fact that he's learned to resist demons by then have any bearing on matters?

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

heartbreaking? of course. But you know, all those mages who have demons put in them and are killed -- are they really less important? Connor is a mage who has shown he cannot withstand a demon. what surprises me most is that the mage circle is willing to go and help -- I suppose, again, because a noble is considered more important than a non-noble.

It may also be because the Circle owes you big time.  You had a right to expect them to help you with the Blight from the treaties, so it's not unreasonable that they would feel some additional obligations toward you.

You know, I really wonder about this whole notion that mages need to be strong enough to resist a demon.  I think succumbing is as much a function of circumstance as strength.  Uldred had gone through the harrowing and many years of experience beyond that.  It seems to me that mages get posessed by demons because they encounter one that offers them something they want too badly to pass up...a child is more vulnerable because they may not fully understand what's at stake, but even an adult mage can fall victim.  My take is that Connor would never have been posessed by the demon had it not been for his desire to save his father and Ulldred would never have been posessed had it not been for his need for enough power to take control of the circle and win the mages freedom and his pride that he could control it. 

[Marvin_Arnold]

ejoslin wrote...

And I guess I should make it clear that I rarely kill Conner.  but it is not evil -- it is what is expected.  Teagan suggests it, Alistair suggests it -- this is not just a stupid act done by a malicious soul.

The "funny" thing is that if you kill Connor (or Isolde), Alistair goes ballistic afterwards.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you make a deal with the demon in exchange for Connor's soul, why would Connor be acting strangely by the coronation? The demon is gone for the moment and not coming back for years. And when it comes back in years, would it automatically be able to retake Connor or would the fact that he's learned to resist demons by then have any bearing on matters?

Because the demon is not fully gone, and ion the epilogue, if you allowed the demon to have Connor in exchange for something, it is only months before the demon comes back.

Spoiler:

In the epilogue, if the demon was bargained with, on the way to the Circle, Connor gets very ill, then disappears completely, and is assumed lost for good. So the demon, unsurprisingly, didn't keep the bargain. But they never really can be trusted to do so anyway, just like Kitty and Imalia in Honneleath.

[SecretLink]

and besides if i remember correctly its stated in-game that you can save Connor because he let the demon in, and that the mages in the tower that already had been turned couldn't be saved at all.

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Spoiler:

In the epilogue, if the demon was bargained with, on the way to the Circle, Connor gets very ill, then disappears completely, and is assumed lost for good. So the demon, unsurprisingly, didn't keep the bargain. But they never really can be trusted to do so anyway, just like Kitty and Imalia in Honneleath.

Does this also happen if you intimidate the demon? I don't remember seeing that when I intimidated the demon into letting Connor free.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 décembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Spoiler:

In the epilogue, if the demon was bargained with, on the way to the Circle, Connor gets very ill, then disappears completely, and is assumed lost for good. So the demon, unsurprisingly, didn't keep the bargain. But they never really can be trusted to do so anyway, just like Kitty and Imalia in Honneleath.

Does this also happen if you intimidate the demon? I don't remember seeing that when I intimidated the demon into letting Connor free.

I don't know, because I've never took that route. I either kill the demon or bargain with it, so I don't know what options are involved. However, if by intimidating, you force the demon to leave forever, permanently, then no, the demon is definitely gone for good. The only way it stays is if you bargain with it for something: Connor's soul in exchange for whatever (blood magic, love of your party, sex, knowledge, ect)

So in effect, the demon only stays when you get something out of the deal.

[Ryzaki]

^I wonder why the demon leaves for good if you just Intimidate it though? Is it that afraid of your PC?

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

^I wonder why the demon leaves for good if you just Intimidate it though? Is it that afraid of your PC?

Yeah, I think it's scared that you'll kill it and knows that if it comes back you could very well do the ritual again and this time destroy it. There have got to be easier prey.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^I wonder why the demon leaves for good if you just Intimidate it though? Is it that afraid of your PC?

Yeah, I think it's scared that you'll kill it and knows that if it comes back you could very well do the ritual again and this time destroy it. There have got to be easier prey.

Ah true. I wonder if the thing is constnatly watching it's back now. Wondering when the PC will be back...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Killing all the dalish just because Zathrian is a liar is pretty crappy. I mean, you are depriving the werewolves of a cure, you are killing a bunch of elves who had no idea their leader was a bastard liar (except Lanaya who DID know), and you have no guarantee you are getting an army out of the deal as you propose killing the Dalish before even asking the Weres if they will fight for you.

Yes, agreed. Killing the whole dalish tribe is an evil decision, both immidieately and in the long term. Though Zathrien himself certainly deserves death, (as well as perhaps some of the Dalish who knew of his secret. and condoned/supported it) many of the Dalish are innocents, especially the children. Plus, like you said, the werewolves don't even promise aid in the blight, it's a gamble that they will. And they remain cursed, and in the epilogue, unable to control themselves, they spread the curse and revert to being beasts, and the lady of the Forest ends up in similar fashion.

[Ryzaki]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Killing all the dalish just because Zathrian is a liar is pretty crappy. I mean, you are depriving the werewolves of a cure, you are killing a bunch of elves who had no idea their leader was a bastard liar (except Lanaya who DID know), and you have no guarantee you are getting an army out of the deal as you propose killing the Dalish before even asking the Weres if they will fight for you.

Yes, agreed. Killing the whole dalish tribe is an evil decision, both immidieately and in the long term. Though Zathrien himself certainly deserves death, (as well as perhaps some of the Dalish who knew of his secret. and condoned/supported it) many of the Dalish are innocents, especially the children. Plus, like you said, the werewolves don't even promise aid in the blight, it's a gamble that they will. And they remain cursed, and in the epilogue, unable to control themselves, they spread the curse and revert to being beasts, and the lady of the Forest ends up in similar fashion.

Is there not an ending where they become renowed and skilled hunters? I remember seeing such a slide. /

Edit: Whoops got slides mixed up >_< Sorry.

Aw...that makes me sad.

But I don't see killing the whole tribe as evil. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Zjarcal]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Killing all the dalish just because Zathrian is a liar is pretty crappy. I mean, you are depriving the werewolves of a cure, you are killing a bunch of elves who had no idea their leader was a bastard liar (except Lanaya who DID know), and you have no guarantee you are getting an army out of the deal as you propose killing the Dalish before even asking the Weres if they will fight for you.

While on the one playthrough where I sided with the werewolves it was definitely for a very crappy motivation (a CE who was pissed at the Dalish for treating her like an outsider and who wanted to keep the humans cursed for life), I still think there are way to RP that situation that aren't necessarily "evil" (God how I hate using that word).

I posted a similar response here. Now I'll grant that the course of action that I mention there is rash and perhaps not the smartest one, but I wouldn't call it an "evil" decision.

I really need to purge the word "evil" from my vocabulary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...
And although, as noted by KoP, a player can choose to be indifferent to the tone or consequences of their actions, even that requires an ability to spot the difference so to speak.

What?
How does being amoral mean that one is indifferent to the consequences of one's actions?
It's completely unrelated.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Zjarcal]

Glaucon wrote...

So is there a consensus yet as to what is the most evil thing to do?

Well a consensus would certainly be hard to achieve but I think most everyone here agrees that killing Isolde for demon sex (without intimidating the Demon of course, since you can also get the demon nookie if you intimidate her), is the crappiest thing to do in the whole game.

I mean, there really is not "justification" there. If you had bargained for blood magic or more power, it could've been argued that you did it be in a stronger position to defeat the blight. But for demon sex? Yeah...

Although I would still pick letting Vaughn have his way with Shianni as the worse thing, provided the CE does it strictly for the money. If they do it to try to avoid any problems in the Alienage, I would still call it a horrible thing to do, but at least the intentions were... "good".

So who knows if there will ever be a consensus.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

So is there a consensus yet as to what is the most evil thing to do?

Well a consensus would certainly be hard to achieve but I think most everyone here agrees that killing Isolde for demon sex (without intimidating the Demon of course, since you can also get the demon nookie if you intimidate her), is the crappiest thing to do in the whole game.

I mean, there really is not "justification" there. If you had bargained for blood magic or more power, it could've been argued that you did it be in a stronger position to defeat the blight. But for demon sex? Yeah...

That's what I did in this last playthrough, I rp'd my Blood Mage as having picked up her specisalization already. So she traded the poor boy's soul for sex. With a demon. With his mother's life as the price.

Definitely, for me, the most evil thing I did in my whole playthrough. Thopugh certainly satisfying, in the sense that I've completely destroyed Eamon in the process (left the village to die).

[KnightofPhoenix]

While I personally reject hedonism (especially in its extreme) and find it pointless, there is no objective reality that dictates that any life is worth more than 10 seconds of pleasure.

David Hume: 'Tis not unreasonable for me to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.'

So I personally wouldn't call that "evil". I'd call it pointless, childish and immature.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Ryzaki]

How is sacrificing a kid's soul for sex childish? It's a jerk move but childish?

Granted my PC

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

How is sacrificing a kid's soul for sex childish? It's a jerk move but childish?

For considering a few seconds of temporary pleasant sensation more valuable than the kid's soul. 
In addition to be reckless enough to let the demon near you.

Only children seek pleasant sensations without much consideration.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While I personally reject hedonism (especially in its extreme) and find it pointless, there is no objective reality that dictates that any life is worth more than 10 seconds of pleasure.

David Hume: 'Tis not unreasonable for me to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.'

So I personally wouldn't call that "evil". I'd call it pointless, childish and immature.

Agreed on that (bolded part) since as I mentioned before, I hate that word.

But I really can't get behind Hume's logic. At all!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:51 .