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[naledgeborn]

If you ever played a HN your family always gets slandered for aligning with Orlais not only in Origins but in Awakening too. I usually took it as Howe trying to cover up his coup along with the uprising when asking Bodhan about rumors. Bryce Cousland fought against Orlais at White RIver and they were with Maric's camp. But more recently I've been thinking what if it was true? You do hear Teryna Eleanor talking about visiting Orlais with Landra. Were these visits more than simple diplomacy? 

[Wereparrot]

No.

[naledgeborn]

Sten?

[Wereparrot]

It was Bryce visiting Orlais, not Eleanor, probably on King's business.

[Sarah1281]

Given that 'King's business' apparently involved setting up a marriage between Celene and Cailan, that's not reassuring. I'd say trade had a lot to do with Bryce's trip and that Howe totally used said trip as 'proof' that the Couslands were traitors.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Given that 'King's business' apparently involved setting up a marriage between Celene and Cailan, that's not reassuring. I'd say trade had a lot to do with Bryce's trip and that Howe totally used said trip as 'proof' that the Couslands were traitors.

'The Calling' again? I should really do some research...

But the way Bryce talks to Howe suggests he is a loyalist.

EDIT: But afterall, inter-national marriages are no bad thing. Kings of old used to marry to secure alliances.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 04 décembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Sarah1281]

No, that wasn't in the Calling. It was from here. One of the two questions confirming it was: 

Question: Did Anora's infertility have anything to do with Cailan leaving her for the Empress of Orlais?
DG: Yes. They don't know for sure that she's infertile, but she wasn't having a child, and so Cailan was responding to advice that he was getting that was saying that maybe he had to marry someone because the Theirin bloodline wasn't exactly spreading out that much. He was the only son, or the only known son of Maric at the time, and Maric himself was the last of his line, so if Cailan didn't have a child, it opened up the possiblity of civil war in Ferelden once again.

Before seeing that, I had assumed Loghain thinking that was what Cailan's letters meant was just him being paranoid. Nope. They had originally been going to have the marriage be a lot further along and Celene was in Denerim during the game but they changed it and left the RtO parts as the remnants of that storyline.

But the way Bryce talks to Howe suggests he is a loyalist.

No, it shows that he is a royalist. If the monarch wants to divorce his wife because she hasn't reproduced and marry the Empress of Celene and Howe, like others, thinks that this will just allow Orlais to make Ferelden part of them again then he could still see supporting that plan as treason or know that others (read: Loghain) will see it as treason and accept his actions.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, that wasn't in the Calling. It was from here. One of the two questions confirming it was: 

Question: Did Anora's infertility have anything to do with Cailan leaving her for the Empress of Orlais?
DG: Yes. They don't know for sure that she's infertile, but she wasn't having a child, and so Cailan was responding to advice that he was getting that was saying that maybe he had to marry someone because the Theirin bloodline wasn't exactly spreading out that much. He was the only son, or the only known son of Maric at the time, and Maric himself was the last of his line, so if Cailan didn't have a child, it opened up the possiblity of civil war in Ferelden once again.

Before seeing that, I had assumed Loghain thinking that was what Cailan's letters meant was just him being paranoid. Nope. They had originally been going to have the marriage be a lot further along and Celene was in Denerim during the game but they changed it and left the RtO parts as the remnants of that storyline.

But the way Bryce talks to Howe suggests he is a loyalist.

No, it shows that he is a royalist. If the monarch wants to divorce his wife because she hasn't reproduced and marry the Empress of Celene and Howe, like others, thinks that this will just allow Orlais to make Ferelden part of them again then he could still see supporting that plan as treason or know that others (read: Loghain) will see it as treason and accept his actions.

It is not treason (due to my ignorance of the novels I apologise for any ignorance), but see the edit for my first post in this thread.

[Sarah1281]

It was debated at great length here. I think that even monarchs can be capable of treason against the country and there are several very valid concerns about the rulers of a huge empire like Orlais and a small and poor country like Ferelden marrying, especially when many in Ferelden aren't convinced that Orlais is really not interested in retaking Ferelden.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It was debated at great length here. I think that even monarchs can be capable of treason against the country and there are several very valid concerns about the rulers of a huge empire like Orlais and a small and poor country like Ferelden marrying, especially when many in Ferelden aren't convinced that Orlais is really not interested in retaking Ferelden.

Monarchs can be guilty of treason, it's true, after all in the Civil War, both leaders could be accused of treason (I'm assuming you are English?), yet Cailan marrying Celene (I'm basing my theory on English law), isn't treason. If Ferelden and Orlais were still enemies, then yes, but since they are not, no. Queen Mary married King Phillip of Spain to try to cement an alliance; it didn't mean she was a traitor.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 04 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[jpdipity]

After Gaider revealed Cailan's intent to marry Celene and the cut storyline, I believe that it is certainly possible that Bryce was aiding Cailan. 

The Human Noble origin is the ONLY origin where your PC appears to everyone as an innocent victim.  Every other orgin you are involved/set-up for some sort of illegal/suspicious/dangerous activity.  If Bryce was helping to arrange Cailan's marriage to Celene and Howe takes Highever as a result - it muddys the waters quite a bit as to whether or not your HN is an innocent or if the Couslands got what they deserved for conspiring with the Orlesians.

I think it would have added a great deal more depth to the HN origin if it wasn't the Golden Child origin that it is now.

Modifié par jpdipity, 04 décembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Sarah1281]

You're not an innocent victim in the CEF storyline? With the male, you could say that you didn't HAVE to go save the abducted women and so it's a choice you made and you're not a victim but with the CEF you're actually abducted yourself and have to fight your way out.

[LadyVaJedi]

I thought that the Couslands were second inline for the throne and I would have thought that Alister didn't make that comment to the HN when he was telling of his birth that he didn't want it.

[Wereparrot]

jpdipity wrote...

After Gaider revealed Cailan's intent to marry Celene and the cut storyline, I believe that it is certainly possible that Bryce was aiding Cailan. 

The Human Noble origin is the ONLY origin where your PC appears to everyone as an innocent victim.  Every other orgin you are involved/set-up for some sort of illegal/suspicious/dangerous activity.  If Bryce was helping to arrange Cailan's marriage to Celene and Howe takes Highever as a result - it muddys the waters quite a bit as to whether or not your HN is an innocent or if the Couslands got what they deserved for conspiring with the Orlesians.

I think it would have added a great deal more depth to the HN origin if it wasn't the Golden Child origin that it is now.

As Cailan said, 'Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past.' Really, your point suggests Howe and Loghain are bigger traitors.

[Sarah1281]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I thought that the Couslands were second inline for the throne and I would have thought that Alister didn't make that comment to the HN when he was telling of his birth that he didn't want it.

There is no second-in-line for the throne. Eamon's letter to Cailan about the lack of an heir makes that clear. Had the Couslands still been around after Cailan's death and a Landsmeet been called, they could have been put on the throne but it was hardly an automatic or clear line of succession.

And 'Our arguments with Orlais are a thing of the past' is a very naive position. The occupation wasn't THAT long ago and while people like Loghain take the paranoia about Orlais too far, it does pay to remember the history and the fact that Orlais is a powerful empire while Ferelden is a weak and poor nation.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I thought that the Couslands were second inline for the throne and I would have thought that Alister didn't make that comment to the HN when he was telling of his birth that he didn't want it.

And 'Our arguments with Orlais are a thing of the past' is a very naive position. The occupation wasn't THAT long ago and while people like Loghain take the paranoia about Orlais too far, it does pay to remember the history and the fact that Orlais is a powerful empire while Ferelden is a weak and poor nation.

It is a very naive thing to say; I for one would have more like a cross between Cailin's and Loghain's attitude.

But Bryce surely wouldn't help him but advise him against it if he felt the match would have negative consequences for Ferelden's independence.

[mousestalker]

The CEF Origin is as Sarah says. There's also the matter of the Dalish origin. What, exactly, is the Dalish warden guilty of? She was possibly playing hooky and found a mirror. You can play that origin without killing a single sentient being. You were simply unlucky.

[Janni-in-VA]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I thought that the Couslands were second inline [sic] for the throne and I would have thought that Alister didn't make that comment to the HN when he was telling of his birth that he didn't want it.

No, the Couslands are not second in line for the throne.  In terms of rank, the two teyrns are second only to the king.  Perhaps this is the source of your confusion. 

Question: Did Anora's infertility have anything to do with Cailan leaving her for the Empress of Orlais?

DG:
Yes. They don't know for sure that she's infertile, but she wasn't
having a child, and so Cailan was responding to advice that he was
getting that was saying that maybe he had to marry someone because the
Theirin bloodline wasn't exactly spreading out that much. He was the
only son, or the only known son[,] of Maric at the time, and Maric himself
was the last of his line, so if Cailan didn't have a child, it opened up
the possiblity of civil war in Ferelden once again.

Since this story line was cut from the game, we can't accept this as canon.  Even the letter found in the king's arms chest at Ostagar only demonstrates that they were in communication with one another.  Nothing had been decided.

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 04 décembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[Wereparrot]

And therefore better placed to succeed Cailin in the event of Cailin's death with no heir.

[Sarah1281]

Wereparrot wrote...

And therefore better placed to succeed Cailin in the event of Cailin's death with no heir.

That is true but that's not the same as next-in-line for the throne. Loghain is a Teyrn as well and his daughter is a Teyrn's heir and Queen Consort. That didn't seem to automatically grant them the throne and everyone was fine with it.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

And therefore better placed to succeed Cailin in the event of Cailin's death with no heir.

That is true but that's not the same as next-in-line for the throne. Loghain is a Teyrn as well and his daughter is a Teyrn's heir and Queen Consort. That didn't seem to automatically grant them the throne and everyone was fine with it.

I know, I just meant that the crown would pass to Bryce (presumably over Loghain) purely on status.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 04 décembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

And therefore better placed to succeed Cailin in the event of Cailin's death with no heir.

That is true but that's not the same as next-in-line for the throne. Loghain is a Teyrn as well and his daughter is a Teyrn's heir and Queen Consort. That didn't seem to automatically grant them the throne and everyone was fine with it.

I know, I just meant that the crown would pass to Bryce (presumably over Loghain) purely on status.

Not really, if it came down to that, it would be a situation somewhat dimilar to the deadlock in the dwarven assembly, in that it would be 50/50 over who got the crown. Landsmeet pretty much determines who is going to be king in such unconventional situations. And they could very well be split 50/50, just as they were for most of the game.

[Randy1012]

If Cailan had died and there hadn't been another Theirin alive, the throne wouldn't have automatically passed to the Couslands simply because they were the highest ranking noble family left. A civil war no doubt would have erupted between those loyal to Loghain and Anora, and those loyal to the Couslands, who would have the closest claim to ruling Ferelden after the Theirins. Loghain and Anora are not of noble blood themselves; well, Anora's mother may have been nobility, I don't think Loghain's wife has ever been established, so many traditionalists would side with the Couslands simply for that reason. In the end it would come down to the Landsmeet.

But that's why my not-so-heroic HNM betrayed Alistair and supported Anora's claim to the throne, in exchange for her hand in marriage. He may have only been a Prince Consort himself, but any children he might have fathered with Anora would have started a new royal bloodline carrying on the Cousland name. It's all about the long-term.

[Addai]

Randy1083 wrote...

 But that's why my not-so-heroic HNM betrayed Alistair and supported Anora's claim to the throne, in exchange for her hand in marriage. He may have only been a Prince Consort himself, but any children he might have fathered with Anora would have started a new royal bloodline carrying on the Cousland name. It's all about the long-term.

(Husband)

Did the same thing for about the same reasons.   Of course if Anora really wanted to she could buck tradition and have the kids named after her family...    I don't see that as likely since she is pretty much totally focused on her career / reign.   And to some degree it defeats a lot of the purpose of marrying a Cousland.   And in my estimatiion she realizes that her own family name needs to be rehabilitated (Loghain is recruited as a Warden but doesn't do the ultimate sacrifice.


In my story line that I sort of stoped working on, a tradition is started of adopting Mac Tir as a middle name (At my PC suggestion). 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 décembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[erilben]

Alistair's grandmother is the Theirin. Even female Coulsand PC is expected to carry on the family name. Queen Anora is more important than the PC married to her, so the children would probably be named after her. Not like there will be any anyway.