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[Wulfram]

erilben wrote...

Alistair's grandmother is the Theirin. Even female Coulsand PC is expected to carry on the family name. Queen Anora is more important than the PC married to her, so the children would probably be named after her. Not like there will be any anyway.

I think it would depend on what happened to Loghain.  Anora would want to keep the name alive, but if he's died in disgrace at the landsmeet it would probably be more politically sensible not to stress the connection.

[Sarah1281]

well, Anora's mother may have been nobility, I don't think Loghain's wife has ever been established, so many traditionalists would side with the Couslands simply for that reason. In the end it would come down to the Landsmeet.

Loghain tells us that his wife, Celia, was the daughter of a cabinet-maker.

erilben wrote...

Alistair's grandmother is the Theirin. Even female Coulsand PC is expected to carry on the family name. Queen Anora is more important than the PC married to her, so the children would probably be named after her. Not like there will be any anyway.

That's different. The Theirins and Couslands are very important noble lines. Anora may be important but the Mac Tirs are only second-generation nobility. If Anora adopted the Cousland last name then all those questions about legitimacy and a commoner being on the throne would disappear and any children wouldn't have to deal with it.

[Randy1012]

Sarah1281 wrote...

well, Anora's mother may have been nobility, I don't think Loghain's wife has ever been established, so many traditionalists would side with the Couslands simply for that reason. In the end it would come down to the Landsmeet.

Loghain tells us that his wife, Celia, was the daughter of a cabinet-maker.

Oh, cool! Thanks. That's in the game? I must have missed that bit of dialogue.

erilben wrote...

Alistair's grandmother is the Theirin. Even female Coulsand PC is expected to carry on the family name. Queen
Anora is more important than the PC married to her, so the children would probably be named after her.

Not necessarily. After Queen Victoria married Prince Albert (who then became Prince Consort of the United Kingdom), they established a new branch of the German House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, of which Prince Albert had been a member. Their son, Edward VII, became the first British monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and technically every British monarch after him has also been of the same house, though George V changed their name to Windsor during World War I.

I like to imagine that my HNM who married Anora was sort of the Albert to her Victoria.

Modifié par Randy1083, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Randy1083 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

well, Anora's mother may have been nobility, I don't think Loghain's wife has ever been established, so many traditionalists would side with the Couslands simply for that reason. In the end it would come down to the Landsmeet.

Loghain tells us that his wife, Celia, was the daughter of a cabinet-maker.

Oh, cool! Thanks. That's in the game? I must have missed that bit of dialogue.

If you marry Alistair to Anora then ask Loghain about how Alistair will fair as king. Choose any of the three 'That's nicer than expected' options and then point out that Anora is the daughter of a Teyrn making her nobly born and Loghain explains about his wife.

[Randy1012]

Coolness, thanks for the info. I did do a playthrough where I spared Loghain and still convinced Alistair and Anora to marry, so either I forgot about that conversation, or I never got to asking Loghain about it.

[Wereparrot]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

And therefore better placed to succeed Cailin in the event of Cailin's death with no heir.

That is true but that's not the same as next-in-line for the throne. Loghain is a Teyrn as well and his daughter is a Teyrn's heir and Queen Consort. That didn't seem to automatically grant them the throne and everyone was fine with it.

I know, I just meant that the crown would pass to Bryce (presumably over Loghain) purely on status.

Not really, if it came down to that, it would be a situation somewhat dimilar to the deadlock in the dwarven assembly, in that it would be 50/50 over who got the crown. Landsmeet pretty much determines who is going to be king in such unconventional situations. And they could very well be split 50/50, just as they were for most of the game.

Sorry; it would/should make him better placed to gain the crown.

And I never really backed up my defence of Cailin and Bryce from the accusation of treason. So, to quote from the Treason Act 1351:

• "when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the King, or of our lady his Queen or of their eldest son and heir";
• "if a man do violate the King’s companion, or the King’s eldest daughter unmarried, or the wife of the King’s eldest son and heir";[9]
• "if a man do levy war against our lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King’s enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere"; and
• "if a man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King’s justices of the one bench or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assise, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places, doing their offices".

The underlined clause is the one we are referring to. If Cailin believes Orlais is no longer an enemy, then how can he be guilty of treason? It is true he was very unwise; why not marry one of his own nobles? The thing is, it would've been anathema in Orlais too, for the same reasons mentioned.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Sarah1281]

We're not going by the 1351 idea of treason. By that, it doesn't seem like anything the king could every do EVER would count as treason. I'm of the opinion that if anyone-who-didn't-happen-to-be-the-king did something and it was treason, then if the king did it it would ALSO be treason and Ferelden doesn't seem to have the absolute obedience to the king that would make this otherwise. If anyone who wasn't the king conspired with another power to deliver the sovereign nation of Ferelden to said other power (which is a perfectly valid fear from the marriage especially given that Ferelden is so poor and weak and Orlais is so strong and powerful and Cailan is an idiot while Celene is brilliant) then that would be treason so when Cailan tries it it is ALSO treason.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

We're not going by the 1351 idea of treason. By that, it doesn't seem like anything the king could every do EVER would count as treason. I'm of the opinion that if anyone-who-didn't-happen-to-be-the-king did something and it was treason, then if the king did it it would ALSO be treason and Ferelden doesn't seem to have the absolute obedience to the king that would make this otherwise. If anyone who wasn't the king conspired with another power to deliver the sovereign nation of Ferelden to said other power (which is a perfectly valid fear from the marriage especially given that Ferelden is so poor and weak and Orlais is so strong and powerful and Cailan is an idiot while Celene is brilliant) then that would be treason so when Cailan tries it it is ALSO treason.

The 1351 law still stands, and is the model for treason laws worldwide. Obviously the third clause could be altered so that it read, 'the realm' if the king was involved. Since Ferelden and Orlais are supposedly not enemies anymore, I contend; it is not treason.

[Sarah1281]

The 1351 law still stands, and is the model for treason laws worldwide. Obviously the third clause could be altered so that it read, 'the realm' if the king was involved. Since Ferelden and Orlais are supposedly not enemies anymore, I contend; it is not treason.

It doesn't matter if they are enemies anymore. It is one ruler of a sovereign state trying to destroy their sovereignty by placing them under the control of another sovereign state.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The 1351 law still stands, and is the model for treason laws worldwide. Obviously the third clause could be altered so that it read, 'the realm' if the king was involved. Since Ferelden and Orlais are supposedly not enemies anymore, I contend; it is not treason.

  It is one ruler of a sovereign state trying to destroy their sovereignty by placing them under the control of another sovereign state.

Who said that was the case? It is, you are of course correct, by that same law you seem to have written off, but the same thing is also true of Celine. Have you not thought that Cailin could be the one with designs on Orlais? It seems plausible, especially as the Orlesian occupation is supposedly based on the Norman invasion (the Normans weren't French, but Vikings who assimilated into French culture), if in future Dragon Age's we go the route of Hundred Years War.

[Sarah1281]

Even if Cailan did want to take over Orlais, Orlais is richer, has a stronger culture Ferelden nobles still borrow from, has a stronger military, has more people, more territory...just how does Cailan think he's going to pull that off and make Orlais a part of Ferelden?

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even if Cailan did want to take over Orlais, Orlais is richer, has a stronger culture Ferelden nobles still borrow from, has a stronger military, has more people, more territory...just how does Cailan think he's going to pull that off and make Orlais a part of Ferelden?

He probably wouldn't, seeing as he isn't a very good general, but again; the Hundred Years War. Agincourt? The English battered a far superior French force, anything could happen. He'd have to sharpen up on his tactics first though. I can't believe he didn't use cavalry at Ostagar.

And what if they both wanted a simple alliance?

[jpdipity]

mousestalker wrote...

The CEF Origin is as Sarah says. There's also the matter of the Dalish origin. What, exactly, is the Dalish warden guilty of? She was possibly playing hooky and found a mirror. You can play that origin without killing a single sentient being. You were simply unlucky.

In the Dalish origin, you are doing something that you should not by exploring the ruins.  You know that you should not be there, but go anyway.  You know that you should go back to camp, but you continue to follow Tamlen.  Tamlen dies because of your recklessness.  You are scolded by several back at camp.  Yes, it is not all your fault, but you are not an innocent by any means.

In the City origin, maybe I missed something.  I thought you could decide to help which is clearly breaking the law (although a morally upstanding thing) or you could decide not to help and look like a complete arse for leaving the girls to get raped and possibly killed.  Of course within those two decisions, there are more choices, but regardless of what you do, you aren't an innocent.  Saving the girls brings the heavy hand of the law down on the alienage.  Leaving the girls, although in the big picture may help the alienage, certainly is a morally reprehensible thing to do.  So, I don't see the CE as an innocent. either.  Then, again, I don't vary my options much in the CE; so, maybe I missed something.

So, it seems to me that with all the origins (other than HN who could potentially do absolutely nothing wrong), the PC ends up in a grey area regardless if the choices they made seemed morally right or wrong.

Edit to add:  It seems out of place to me that the HN is the only one not in a grey area like the others - as if something was cut or missing from the storyline.

Modifié par jpdipity, 08 décembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[Sarah1281]

If you're a CEM you could ignore the situation (well, game mechanics aside). If you are a CEF you are one of those girls Vaughan is planning on raping. You really DON'T have a choice unless you feel that not quietly consenting to being raped is a crime and doesn't make you a victim.



And seriously, how does saving people from rape NOT qualify them as an innocent? There is no grey area here. People are going to be raped and killed and so you stop them. If Vaughan were more reasonable and agreed to let you take the women home with you when you confront him THEN you could call it a grey area. As it is, the law does not allow Vaughan to abduct and rape elves. He does it anyway and can get away with it but this isn't Orlais. Stopping someone from committing a horrible and illegal act does not stop you from being an innocent or - in the case of the CEF - a victim.

[Giggles_Manically]

Even if it was illegal that would not stop me from doing this to Vaughan:

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you're a CEM you could ignore the situation (well, game mechanics aside). If you are a CEF you are one of those girls Vaughan is planning on raping. You really DON'T have a choice unless you feel that not quietly consenting to being raped is a crime and doesn't make you a victim.

And seriously, how does saving people from rape NOT qualify them as an innocent? There is no grey area here. People are going to be raped and killed and so you stop them. If Vaughan were more reasonable and agreed to let you take the women home with you when you confront him THEN you could call it a grey area. As it is, the law does not allow Vaughan to abduct and rape elves. He does it anyway and can get away with it but this isn't Orlais. Stopping someone from committing a horrible and illegal act does not stop you from being an innocent or - in the case of the CEF - a victim.

Stopping the rape is the morally right thing to do - the "grey" that I am talking about is that you are warned that helping the girls could bring bigger problems to the Alienage as a whole - that is the "grey".  Save the few girls from a terrible fate and risk bringing on a harsh retribution to the community as a whole OR be a complete arse, not help them, accept their fate and perhaps (the game implies) the communtiy as a whole will avoid being punished.

For the CEF, it can be argued the same - her escape is going to bring a lot of trouble to her community.  She saved herself instead of the community which is the "grey" in her decision.  From my point of view, the CEF did the right thing by defending herself after being kidnapped, but she is now an outlaw for doing so.

I personally agree with you completely.  I have never fully explored the option to leave the girls to their fate; so, I thought I may be missing something from that origin.  I know it is there, but I have never had a PC who would do such a thing.  

I think that perhaps we are disagreeing on my use of the word "innocent" rather than the concept of what I am trying express.  Regardless if it is morally right or not for the PC to do what they did, their decision is perceived as negative/wrong/unlawful by others in game and they must be saved by Duncan through recruitment to the Grey Wardens as a result of their actions or perceived actions.  The exception is the HN who is simply being saved from death.

Modifié par jpdipity, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[EvilNobleIII]

Even if the cousland parents are committing treason by making trips to Orlais for whatever reason (be they trade or helping king Cailan make a marriagecontract with empress Celene I) that does not mean your character him/her self is guilty of treason (or do you propose the children of murderers should be tossed in prison because they are guilty of murder on the grounds of being the child of the man who did the murder?)

And the dwarven noble, if played a certain way, is entirely innocent of the crime they accuse him of and still gets recruited in the end.