117 réponses à ce sujet

[this isnt my name]

As a LI for ME3 ?

[Theoristitis]

McBeath wrote...
Nuke em from the inside, Armeggedon style!  That would be a pretty kick *** mission... to infiltrate and then demo a reaper from the inside out

YES:D.

For the record, and at the risk of going on a tangent, this is what happened in Independence Day as well. Virus or no virus, the humans would've gotten KTFO if not for the "timed nuke and RUN" strategy.
All the computer virus did was temporarily take down the shields of the kid-ships (hardly a "WIN button", though I suppose it was kinda a deus ex). We could compare it to Sovereign being temporarily overloaded by his avatar getting wrecked.
Killing big ships from the inside is a tried-and-true method. Hence why I want an army of krogan more than anything (although I can imagine the greetings..."Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard")

[Cra5y Pineapple]

AngusJimiKeith wrote...

see, launching a much smaller and lighter nuke that can fit onto a craft that can fly circles around the reaper and dodge its weapons would be just as effective, if not more so.

the thing im getting at with nukes is twofold:
1) nukes are heat-based. all that destruction is caused by immense heat. this would nullify the kinetic barriers, and, more importantly, melt away the outer hull, removing any electromagnetic shielding, allowing for part two....
2) EMP. all nukes put one out, and it wreaks havoc on anything electronic ie synthetic life. better yet, unlike CoD would make us believe, the results of an emp do not go away after 2 minnutes or something. they are permanent. circuitry is FRIED.

if this doesnt destroy the reapers, nothing will.

I agree with this. I say some space combat involving the Normandy being equipped with a nuke launcher and a thanix cannon would be awesome as hell.
And it shouldn't be too hard to pull off anyway. Bungie, a studio alien to the concept of space combat put together a short and sweet space combat sequence into Reach so I don't see why anyone else couldn't.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 05 décembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Johnny Chaos]

And the Alliance shall call  it SSV Horatio

[lovgreno]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

If the council races pooled together they could probably create one heck of a concentration of ass kicking in one ship. Add to that the political value of showing the benefits of interracial cooperation. And why not invite krogans, quarians and even batarians to make a small contribution. A olive branch is definitely needed there to unify all against the reapers. Geth shields would be nice but that would sadly not be possible politicaly.

But with a all human Council I don't see how a project like this would ever be possible.

You don't want Krogan or Batarians.
Why?

Krogan - "When was the last time you saw a Krogan scientist?", Wrex. Krogan simply have nothing to contribute to a ship.

Batarians - Can't be trusted, they would try to sabotage the other races somehow.

After meeting that krogan scientist Whatshisname on Tuchanka it's clear that the krogan have more to offer than it seems. In any case it would mostly be a symbolic way of contributing, even if it is just a little.

Perhaps yes. But I am willing to try to at least get the batarians to not feel so emo and abandoned because when the reapers attacks I prefer to have the batarians pointing their guns at them instead of at Shepard.

A big ship could work a bit as a tank to use a MMO term. That big and insanely shielded lump of armour draws the reapers attention while frigattes sneak up on them from behind.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I support Shepard saying "penis" in ME3.
(That's how we'll defeat the Reapers.)

Harbinger: We are your salvation through-
Shepard: -interrupt- penis!
-Reapers go boom-
Turian Councilor: ..., as I was saying: Ah yes , "Reapers" the immortal race of sentient starships that allegedly live in dark space... we have dismissed this claim.

[Sajuro]

Theoristitis wrote...

McBeath wrote...
Nuke em from the inside, Armeggedon style!  That would be a pretty kick *** mission... to infiltrate and then demo a reaper from the inside out

YES:D.

For the record, and at the risk of going on a tangent, this is what happened in Independence Day as well. Virus or no virus, the humans would've gotten KTFO if not for the "timed nuke and RUN" strategy.
All the computer virus did was temporarily take down the shields of the kid-ships (hardly a "WIN button", though I suppose it was kinda a deus ex). We could compare it to Sovereign being temporarily overloaded by his avatar getting wrecked.
Killing big ships from the inside is a tried-and-true method. Hence why I want an army of krogan more than anything (although I can imagine the greetings..."Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard" "Shepard")

Then the response
Shepard: wrex,grunt,scout,thomk,wreav,uvenk,roark,shaman,engineer

[adam_grif]

The alliance should be cranking out Missile Cruisers that sport MT range Casaba Howitzers.





1960's Earth technology >>>>> Reapers

Modifié par adam_grif, 05 décembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[282xvl]

OP Here



Good discussion. I will point out that what I was suggesting was not a "ridiculously" big ship like a Super Star Destroyer (8 KM!) or a Death Star. Something more like a Destiny Ascension size, but built ground-up to accommodate a Reaper-class main gun of Thanix design.



The Honorverse thoughts were cool just because they referenced honorverse. On the similarities there I would say that a current Mass Effect Dreadnought would roughly equate to an early honorverse standard-issue SD. The Alliance flagship I would like to see would equate to a 1st-gen SD(P) in its tactical capabilities and relevance in battle. If you know honorverse you know what I mean.



I reject the notion that fighters/strike craft are the be-all end-all in the ME tactical lore. Despite referencing WWII battleships and their obsolescence the situation in ME lore does not seem as clear cut. It is said that bombers take ridiculous losses to successfully zerg a capital ship, and their ordnance is far from 1-shot-kill (unlike a WWII torpedo or well placed aerial bomb could be.) This doctrinal attrition would make long-term or detached service deployments by carrier forces a logistical impossibility.



Further on logistics, the nature of all high performance thrusters (anti-matter based - with all the expense and difficulty of its production as per lore) makes building lots of fighters that have to do lots of thrusting and will be lost in droves very fuel expensive. Additionally, mass effect drive cores for fighters (while very small) are built of a rare, hugely expensive and irreplaceable finite supply of Eezo. Losing even tiny eezo cores in zergling lots seems strategically insane in any kind of long war.



I would also argue that while fighters upset the tactical balance in an all-battleship world this was because of their use as delivery vehicles for specialized armaments, not because they are small and dodgy. Nothing dodges a laser. Fighters allowed intelligent delivery of Barrier-defying torpedoes and are relevant only because of this. However, barrier-defying torpedoes may be rendered irrelevant by even better barrier-defying Thanix cannons (a reaper technology, and indeed yet another NEW technology.) If Thanix > Torpedo at defeating barriers then Thanix platforms become supreme. A reaper-class thanix can obliterate a standard dreadnought in a single shot. If a new-model SD (or SD(T) if you like, fellow honor fans) with a reaper-class thanix can do the same then it surpasses the striking power of both a standard SD or an equivalent zerg-lot of fighters.



Another way to look at it is that if strike-craft were the supreme answer then would the Reapers not have adopted a swarm-style of combat over the eons? I am inclined to believe that the reapers tactical doctrine is likely to be pretty sound, considering how long they have had to refine, test and compare it against millions of independently evolved tactical doctrines throughout galactic history.



I also do not see "present day" Mass Effect dreadnoughts as final iterations of Battleships. They are more like historical pre-dreadnoughts in my mind with many secondary batteries and still thinking knife-fight range capital ship fighting. Historically this same concept went by the wayside about 1900 with the design of All-Big-Gun battleships (true dreadnoughts) and an ME analogue of this final battleship naval era could be the SD(T) that I am proposing - an all-big-gun (as in one or maybe two reaper-class Thanix) battleship designed to stand toe-to-toe against another ship of similar capability (namely a reaper.)



The ship is not supposed to be a giant win button. More like a prototype designed to fight a Reaper on semi-equal terms. I am of course basing the idea on the unsupported theory that reaper-class weaponry (Thanix cannon 2+ km in length) is capable of defeating Reaper-class shields after a reasonable exchange of fire.



As for nukes, I have my doubts that Reapers (or any modern starship) would lack full hardening against EMP. If they did lack for such, they could never operate in space outside the safety of a planetary magnetic field. There is tons of natural EMP in space, for example from stars.



Thermal damage from nukes might be less effective they we would hope because ships are designed to survive engagement with high-energy laser batteries. Ablative armor is mentioned in the lore, and the lore, in my opinion, seems to suggest that lasers are generally ineffective as primary weapons because ships are sturdy enough against thermal attack that they just don't inflict enough damage. To support this I point out again that Nothing Dodges a Laser and that the best mass effect cannons fire at sub-2% of c AND lasers ignore barriers... so if lasers could actually deal meaningful damage in this universe they would immediately replace mass effect cannons. All this leads me to believe that nukes will probably be RDM Galactica-strength in ME - they'll knock you around but are not really that much more devastating ship to ship than your main gun batteries.



Also keep in mind that while there is a nigh unlimited amount of iron, aluminum, tungsten whatever for mass accelerator slugs they is indeed a finite quantity of fissile material. Mass nuclear cruise missiles may not be logistically feasible, either for lack/expense of plutonium or of anti-matter or eezo to propel them. That said, I do think nukes definitely have their place in the ME universe but mostly as either ground-attack weapons or as coup-de-grace ship killers against targets that have lost most their point defense or have had their outer armor perforated by mass accelerator rounds (nuke them from inside concept.)



As regard the Independence Day virus crap I have two things to say. Firstly I don't think the shield-drop portion of the virus was too severe of a deus ex. Shield drop in that movie resulted in just a somewhat more fair fight, took away enemy invincible mode but didn't give humans insta-kill either. The story-ruining deus ex there was all their ships shutting down when the mother ship died. That was retarded and ridiculous.



Worst virus deus ex EVER was War of the Worlds. Insta-kill of all enemies instantly and without any intervention or action by humans. Got to see all of ONE tripod taken down by conventional arms, and it was falling over itself with a fever anyway. Horrible conclusion. If they could have worked a shield-drop angle and then conventional take-down it would have been much more epic and satisfying.



Another HORRIBLE deux ex moment was the ghost army in LOTR: Return of the King. Ridiculous wave of invincible insta-death. Can't be fought or even resisted in any way shape or form by anything. Win button extraordinaire and destroyer of one of the coolest epic battles ever put to film. The book did not do that. The book had it right.



Whatever route they go in ME, I hope they Alliance (and allies) build ships that can fight the reapers on semi-equal terms without deux ex insta-kill so that we get a lengthy and epic battle(s).



I also hope said battle is INSTALLED ON YOUR HARD DRIVE so we don't get 360 disc-read load-stutter-fail but that is another topic...

[lovgreno]

I thing we should also consider the Rule Of Cool. A huge ship built around a huge Thanix cannon would simply be enough cool to be allowed. I bet the turians are building just that somewhere actualy.

[General User]

I tend to favor fighter-bombers because they are inherently flexible as platforms. They are FTL capable, can mount Javelin torpedoes and thanix cannons. So I’m not sure a dreadnought would enjoy an advantage in firepower over a squadron of fighter-bombers.

[AlexMBrennan]

Build a dreadnought to lead the charge if you really want - not like Shepard will be around by the time the Reapers get to Citadel space using conventional FTL travel.

However, since the DA failed somewhat spectacularly at evacuating the council I'd suggest not repeating the mistake of using your biggest dreadnought to evacuate VIPs. Instead, don't tell anyone about it and use a Kodiak-sized shuttle. If that isn't grand enough, build 5 identical, very fast and stealth capable ships for the task.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 05 décembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[KenLyns]

1. Nukes fell into disuse because dreadnaught-grade mass accelerators can do similar damage while being much cheaper to operate.

2. Since Thannix fires molten metal, there is no need for the gun barrel to be linear. They could conceivably make the barrel a coil, with the fluid medium gaining X% velocity with each loop, effectively packing a lengthy barrel in a small ship.

3. Do Reapers have fighter-defense weapons like Guardian lasers? I haven't seen them in the

[lovgreno]

KenLyns wrote...
2. Since Thannix fires molten metal, there is no need for the gun barrel to be linear. They could conceivably make the barrel a coil, with the fluid medium gaining X% velocity with each loop, effectively packing a lengthy barrel in a small ship.

Perhaps, but a bigger ship could carry a bigger coil with a better punch. A reapers defences are obviously way better than the standard galactic dreadnought so delivering the damage in one place at the same time might be better than spreading it out over time and area with smaller ships.

A combination of big and small ships could be the best strategy. A swarm of attack fighters from carriers keep the reapers busy and take down the shields followed by some armour cracking concentrated dreadnought fire.

Or just load the Thanix cannons with krogans, but I suppose that would be too easy.

[klossen4]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Build a dreadnought to lead the charge if you really want - not like Shepard will be around by the time the Reapers get to Citadel space using conventional FTL travel.

However, since the DA failed somewhat spectacularly at evacuating the council I'd suggest not repeating the mistake of using your biggest dreadnought to evacuate VIPs. Instead, don't tell anyone about it and use a Kodiak-sized shuttle. If that isn't grand enough, build 5 identical, very fast and stealth capable ships for the task.

i think reapers will arrive in me3 somehow.

[Vaenier]

In space, the mass accelerator reins supreme. Ships should be built around a main gun that goes the entire length of the ship. If you want to look at a good way to build a space ship, look at a submarine. Its purpose built around using torpedoes or nukes, its capable of long term operation without surfacing, nothing is wasted. A combat space ship should be entirely based around the gun, and it should only have any many people as required to get the gun where it needs to go and to shoot at its target. The Normandy is not a combat ship, it is a recon ship, thus it carries additional ground troops and vehicles; its largely wasted space is still inexcusable.

Reapers can one-shot your ships, but you can not one-shot theirs, so its best to make many little ships to chip away at their shields rather than make a few large ships that would be taken out quickly. Unless you are capable of studying Reaper weapon and shield technology in order to make your ships capable of surviving multiple hits. In that case, the larger ship would function at full effect, where as the smaller ships would be picked off and have reduced effect. Even then, it comes down to numerous unknown factors about combat efficiency and production capabilities. How does damage scale with size and cost? How does shielding scale to the size of the ship? Are they linear relationships or do they decay? There really is no way to know for sure till the writers make it up.

Modifié par Vaenier, 05 décembre 2010 - 08:09 .

[Shinannigan]

Considering that there needs to be a prominent place for Cmdr. Shepard in the final battle, they will probably go for smaller ships to deliver boarding parties onto the Reapers.

Also, Dreadnought battles, which according to ME lore have the Dreadnoughts holding position dozens or hundreds of miles apart are no fun to look at - and that's what cinematics have to be, considering you're not even involved as a player but can only watch.

Even if they were to introduce some active space combat, you'd probably have more fun controlling a fast, versatile ship like the Normandy instead of shooting a Dreadnought's big guns from a fixed position.

Just remember the sheer epicness of the dogfights in Kotor's final battle or Sovereign forcing the Citadel fleet into close quarter combat - those were cinematics! I think Bioware knows what they're doing when putting space combat on screen and so far it has heavily relied on getting close enough for dogfights. I say they should stick to it.



However, Dreadnoughts do have their place within this concept: They explode rather nicely.

If there were to be another Superdreadnought like the Destiny Ascension, I wouldn't mind seeing it fall prey to the first Reaper onslaught.

[Yakko77]

Mr Zoat wrote...

I'd rather have the two or three carriers which you would get for the same cost.

Agreed.  To use a WWII  example, the Japanese built a couple super battleships and all they ended up being are really large tagets for carrier planes to bomb and torpedo the heck out of.  I find myself hoping that ME3 has a dramatic moment which takes out a lot of dreadnaughts and it's left to the smaller cruisers and frigates to escort and enable the carriers to strike back.

I may be a bit biased though being a former flattop sailor....

[Yakko77]

AngusJimiKeith wrote...

Ya know, the Japanese tried the same thing in World War II. Both the Yamato and Musashi ended up on the bottom of the ocean after being relentlessly pounded by torpedo- and dive-bombers.

Carriers ftw.

granted, anything we send against the reapers would be good as long as it carried nuclear weapons. yes, nukes...It sort of IS a deus ex machina, but at the same time, you still need something to launch said nukes.

Beat me to it!  LOL!

Seems like you're a student of history as well.  I find myself hoping the final battle goes something like the Battle off Samar which IMO is one of the most epic naval battles in history.

[Gundar3]

I support the notion of an Alliance super carrier/ flagship. As long as Shep can do something with it.

[Zan51]

Smaller=deadlier.

Wasp, a book by Eric Frank Russdel built on the idea that the main character's actions and central purpose mimic that particular insect. So as something as small as a wasp can terrorize a much larger person, or being in control of a car to the point of causing a crash and killing the occupants, so the defeat of an enemy may be wrought via psychological and guerrilla warfare by a small, but deadly, protagonist in their midst.

Wasps ftw.

Modifié par Zan51, 06 décembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Sinapus]

klossen4 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Build a dreadnought to lead the charge if you really want - not like Shepard will be around by the time the Reapers get to Citadel space using conventional FTL travel.

However, since the DA failed somewhat spectacularly at evacuating the council I'd suggest not repeating the mistake of using your biggest dreadnought to evacuate VIPs. Instead, don't tell anyone about it and use a Kodiak-sized shuttle. If that isn't grand enough, build 5 identical, very fast and stealth capable ships for the task.

i think reapers will arrive in me3 somehow.

They were described as very thorough at eliminating the Protheans, presumably they are thorough enough to have some sort of backup. This might even be the first time they had to do so.

[primero holodon]

All a ship that size would do is consume massive amounts of resorces for maitenance and construction. The destiny ascension didn't exactly do much to tip the scales of the fight.