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I support an Alliance Superdreadnaught Flagship (and so should you.)


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#51
Sinapus

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282xvl wrote...

OP Here

Good discussion. I will point out that what I was suggesting was not a "ridiculously" big ship like a Super Star Destroyer (8 KM!) or a Death Star. Something more like a Destiny Ascension size, but built ground-up to accommodate a Reaper-class main gun of Thanix design.


Aww.... so you don't want an even longer version of that sequence in ME1 where the Destiny Ascension is floating by and a volus is talking to a human woman, describing how he went on a tour of that ship?

(If you saw Spaceballs and remember the opening, you know what I mean by "even longer" sequence.)

Volus: We had to run through the whole thing or it would have taken months to complete the tour!

The Honorverse thoughts were cool just because they referenced honorverse. On the similarities there I would say that a current Mass Effect Dreadnought would roughly equate to an early honorverse standard-issue SD. The Alliance flagship I would like to see would equate to a 1st-gen SD(P) in its tactical capabilities and relevance in battle. If you know honorverse you know what I mean.


DuQuesne Base was never the same.

#52
adam_grif

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As for nukes, I have my doubts that Reapers (or any modern starship)
would lack full hardening against EMP. If they did lack for such, they
could never operate in space outside the safety of a planetary magnetic
field. There is tons of natural EMP in space, for example from stars.


Nuclear weapons do not produce an EMP unless they are bursted in high altitude, where they interact strongly with the magnetosphere. Low altitude bursts and nukes detonating in space do not produce any emp at all.



Thermal
damage from nukes might be less effective they we would hope because
ships are designed to survive engagement with high-energy laser
batteries. Ablative armor is mentioned in the lore, and the lore, in my
opinion, seems to suggest that lasers are generally ineffective as
primary weapons because ships are sturdy enough against thermal attack
that they just don't inflict enough damage. To support this I point out
again that Nothing Dodges a Laser and that the best mass effect cannons
fire at sub-2% of c AND lasers ignore barriers... so if lasers could
actually deal meaningful damage in this universe they would immediately
replace mass effect cannons. All this leads me to believe that nukes
will probably be RDM Galactica-strength in ME - they'll knock you around
but are not really that much more devastating ship to ship than your
main gun batteries.


Actually, lasers weapons are not used as main guns because they have extremely inferior effective range. They are only good for a few tens of kilometers according to the codex (that means they must be pretty weak, based on laser intensity calculations) or 80+ KM in the case of Salarian UV lasers.

We have no instances of a weaponized laser, so we can't comment on how effective they are against armor. Regardless of that though, surface detonations of atomic weapons will dump orders of magnitude more energy than a laser strike would, all over their hull. Even if they somehow survived that, it would fry all external optics on the ship and give any crew a pretty lethal dose of radiation.

But like I posted above you, conventional nukes aren't what we should use anyway. Casba Howitzer style weapons are nuclear shaped charges. As in, they don't explode spherically, they pump >85% of their energy into a small cone, which superheats tungsten, turning it into plasma and firing it forward at a significant speed! It's a massively powerful one-shot particle beam!

The Thanix gun shoots molten metal at a high speed. This shoots superheated metal at an extreme speed, and since the nuclear device is providing the energy, you can literally dump megatonnes of energy into each shot!

The thanix gun reportedly has "cruiser level firepower", and a Dreadnought is only 38KT! That's an improvement of multiple orders of magnitude in firepower!

Also keep in mind that while there is
a nigh unlimited amount of iron, aluminum, tungsten whatever for mass
accelerator slugs they is indeed a finite quantity of fissile material.
Mass nuclear cruise missiles may not be logistically feasible, either
for lack/expense of plutonium or of anti-matter or eezo to propel them.


It was possible for the United States and Russia to mass produce nuclear weapons at an impressive rate. The peak US stockpile was 31,000 devices in 1967, implying a production rate of nearly 4 warheads per day assuming the first device was built on January 1, 1945. Actually the rate of production through the 1940's was far lower than that of later, so the actual effective rate of production is more like 6-7 per day.

Now consider that the Systems Alliance, the smallest council race (assuming the council was saved), has more than a dozen developed colonies, numerous mining outposts and the combined wealth of the entire Earth.

I'm pretty sure they can handle mass production of nuclear bombs!

#53
Tennessee88

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primero holodon wrote...

All a ship that size would do is consume massive amounts of resorces for maitenance and construction. The destiny ascension didn't exactly do much to tip the scales of the fight.


The reason the Destiny Ascension was basically useless in the Battle of The Citadel was due to the fact that combat took place in to use a common Mass Effect phrase... Knife Fight Range. The issue for dreadnoughts is that their main guns require allignment of the entire ship to engage a single target. A severe limitation in a close range fight with Geth cruisers swarming your position. The SR2 tech basically renders current dreadnoughts as useless due to a combination of stealth technology and the Thanix Cannon.

However imagine a super dreadnought combining the following. A main Thanix Cannon that replaces the main gun, used much in the traditional manner. Combined with an array of smaller Thanix batteries in turrets that do not require the entire ship to reallign for a kill shot. Combine the ability to carry fighters, and a large contingent of Marines, tanks, artillery, and perhaps a small wolf pack of frigates would lead to the Alliance having a true game changer. A ship that could project power withing entire systems.

Its main appeal of course would be its ability to negate other dreadnoughts due to its ability to fight at knife fight range with its smaller batteries which would pack more than enough punch. The main problem is of course that the Turians also have Thanix tech...

Regardless nothing currently possesed by any of the sentient races (THAT IS KNOWN TO US) currently has the power to take on the reapers. Even if such a ship was produced a reaper would be able to easily win a one on one fight, and unfortunately a one on one fight seems like it will be a rarity. Several hundred reapers were seen in the final scene alone. That is the equal to the number of notable Systems Alliance ships alone.

But considering that the Reapers will be defeated (I know there are those of you who believe we could loose, but why in the world would Bioware deprive themselves of such a rich universe) I am looking forward towards conflict between the Alliance and other races.

#54
Yakko77

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Tennessee88 wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

All a ship that size would do is consume massive amounts of resorces for maitenance and construction. The destiny ascension didn't exactly do much to tip the scales of the fight.


The reason the Destiny Ascension was basically useless in the Battle of The Citadel was due to the fact that combat took place in to use a common Mass Effect phrase... Knife Fight Range. The issue for dreadnoughts is that their main guns require allignment of the entire ship to engage a single target. A severe limitation in a close range fight with Geth cruisers swarming your position. The SR2 tech basically renders current dreadnoughts as useless due to a combination of stealth technology and the Thanix Cannon.

However imagine a super dreadnought combining the following. A main Thanix Cannon that replaces the main gun, used much in the traditional manner. Combined with an array of smaller Thanix batteries in turrets that do not require the entire ship to reallign for a kill shot. Combine the ability to carry fighters, and a large contingent of Marines, tanks, artillery, and perhaps a small wolf pack of frigates would lead to the Alliance having a true game changer. A ship that could project power withing entire systems.

Its main appeal of course would be its ability to negate other dreadnoughts due to its ability to fight at knife fight range with its smaller batteries which would pack more than enough punch. The main problem is of course that the Turians also have Thanix tech...

Regardless nothing currently possesed by any of the sentient races (THAT IS KNOWN TO US) currently has the power to take on the reapers. Even if such a ship was produced a reaper would be able to easily win a one on one fight, and unfortunately a one on one fight seems like it will be a rarity. Several hundred reapers were seen in the final scene alone. That is the equal to the number of notable Systems Alliance ships alone.

But considering that the Reapers will be defeated (I know there are those of you who believe we could loose, but why in the world would Bioware deprive themselves of such a rich universe) I am looking forward towards conflict between the Alliance and other races.


I seriously hope Bioware does exactly this or something very close to it.  Your idea of a carrier/dreadnought/transport hybrid is awesome.  The only risk in such a design is putting too many eggs in one basket but it'll likely take something like you described to take on the armada of Reaper superdreadnoughts.

In ME and ME2 cutscenes we've seen frigates, cruisers and a couple superdreadnoughts (DA  and the Reapers) but have yet to see dreadnoughts or human Alliance carriers to my knowledge (the majority of ships involved at the Battle of the Citadel were only cruisers IIRC) so I hope the big final battle involves all of the above in some manner or another.

#55
lovgreno

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Tennessee88 wrote...

However imagine a super dreadnought combining the following. A main Thanix Cannon that replaces the main gun, used much in the traditional manner. Combined with an array of smaller Thanix batteries in turrets that do not require the entire ship to reallign for a kill shot. Combine the ability to carry fighters, and a large contingent of Marines, tanks, artillery, and perhaps a small wolf pack of frigates would lead to the Alliance having a true game changer. A ship that could project power withing entire systems.

Its main appeal of course would be its ability to negate other dreadnoughts due to its ability to fight at knife fight range with its smaller batteries which would pack more than enough punch. The main problem is of course that the Turians also have Thanix tech...

How about instead make a super dreadnought with the turians?  It has worked before as the Normandy was a great sucess. A olive branch is certanly needed between those two spiecies. Also the horribly high cost of building it could be shared. And if someone knows how to build good thanix cannons it's probably the turians.

The problem would however be that many humans would be too proud to ask anyone, especialy not turians, for help. But I think even Ashley would not mind serving under a turian captain if it's for the greater firepower.

#56
Nashiktal

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The destiny ascension couldn't stand up to a small fleet of heretics. Something tells me a similar sized alliance vessel would be a very expensive waste of time better used on other projects.



Why not just fit currently built ships with advanced weaponry similar to what the normandy has? That makes more sense to me.

#57
Merchant2006

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^ Agreed. Seeing how the D.A. got swarmed over and wasn't pummelled by Sovereign (who pretty much zoomed towards the Citadel like a schoolkid chasing after an ice cream van) but the smaller Ge-... 'Sizable amount of small Geth Heretic Ships' did a hefty amount of damage to their ship, I don't think having anything too large would be handy.



I mean... a Super Dreadnaught sized ship like sayyy... a Super Star Destroyer... that would need a lot of other ships nearby to keep it protected. Sure its a gi-normous ship but... vs Reapers... eep x.x



Oh and I too support Shepard saying penis in ME3

#58
Tennessee88

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Nashiktal wrote...

The destiny ascension couldn't stand up to a small fleet of heretics. Something tells me a similar sized alliance vessel would be a very expensive waste of time better used on other projects.

Why not just fit currently built ships with advanced weaponry similar to what the normandy has? That makes more sense to me.


I agree with you completely, a super dreadnought would be completely useless against a single reaper as everything stands right now. Even if we could manage to bypass their defences and have weaponry powerful enough to take them down, a super dreadnought (even with technology taken from SR2) would be nothing more than an incredibly expensive bullseye. While we have managed to gain access to Reaper weaponry with the Thanix Cannon we do not know if it is even a fraction as powerful as pure Reaper tech... my assumption as of right now would be no. Only if their defensive technologies could be harnesed would super dreadnoughts become a needed resource.

Quick note on the Destiny Ascension, the reason that ship was doomed from the beginning was the fact that its main guns became useless in close range combat. Having to allign a whole ship to effectively bring about killshots is fine at thousands of kilometers, but when ships are cose enough to prevent a firing solution... well the results were clear.

I mainly dreamed about such a super dreadnought because I am sick of finals and on a steady stream of adderall, so instead of studying I started dreaming of my ideal Mass Effect spin off game. So I started writing and found myself leaning towards the character who takes command of such a vessel combining elements of BSG and Restrepo (for Marine deployment planet side). Always wish there was a game where you could command from CIC and the gameplay elements we gritty, realistic, and also entertaining. But anyways I'll save all that for a "Your Mass Effect Spin-off Ideas Thread" should one ever pop. Don't want to hijack a good thread with my hairbrained ideas.

Modifié par Tennessee88, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:55 .


#59
Mallissin

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Destiny Ascension for love interest in ME3!

#60
Tennessee88

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Merchant2006 wrote...

^ Agreed. Seeing how the D.A. got swarmed over and wasn't pummelled by Sovereign (who pretty much zoomed towards the Citadel like a schoolkid chasing after an ice cream van) but the smaller Ge-... 'Sizable amount of small Geth Heretic Ships' did a hefty amount of damage to their ship, I don't think having anything too large would be handy.

I mean... a Super Dreadnaught sized ship like sayyy... a Super Star Destroyer... that would need a lot of other ships nearby to keep it protected. Sure its a gi-normous ship but... vs Reapers... eep x.x

Oh and I too support Shepard saying penis in ME3


Before the development of the Thanix Cannon you are unquestionably correct in your evaluation. However the Thanix is small enough that a large enough ship could mount them in turrets which negate the need for line of site targeting required by the ship long mass accelerators that were used in ships such as the DA. She was never meant to engage targets at that close a range and it appears she had no ability to effectively engage targets otherwise.

Now imagine Thanix Turret batteries able to have firing solutions on ships no matter their relative position to the super dreadnought. If the collector ship could be taken out in less than a minute by one battery, imagine a compliment fit for a super dreadnought. The geth wouldn't have lasted minutes against such a ship as those guns would have easily been one shot kill. Combine this with a larger main battery for more traditional fights, a GARDIAN system, interceptor and bomber wings, and an accompanying wolfpack of frigates and you have one truly awe inspiring ability to project force in the galaxy.

Of course flotilla's of the SR2 are much better options for combat operations, that is the simple lesson history has taught us. And against the Reapers as stated before, pretty much everything is useless. Dreadnought of any type is nothing but speed bump and that is being generous. But say as something to fight Bartarians and the like, or the fact that it would tie up massive amounts of resources of any opposing force just by virtue of the threat it presents... well then you have something that might be viable.

#61
adam_grif

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I reiterate:



Casaba Howitzer >>> Thanix Guns.

#62
Tennessee88

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adam_grif wrote...

I reiterate:

Casaba Howitzer >>> Thanix Guns.


The only problem with the Casaba Howitzer is that I see no reference for it in the ME:Universe. If there is reference please point it out as I sincerely interested.

#63
adam_grif

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Tennessee88 wrote...

The only problem with the Casaba Howitzer is that I see no reference for it in the ME:Universe. If there is reference please point it out as I sincerely interested.


Mass Effect's history is the same as real Earth's up until about the 2060's when it starts speculating with Moon bases and such. Casaba Howitzers are just weaponized nuclear shaped charges, which were developed in the 1960's as part of a NASA study called "Project Orion", where it was originally used as a method of propelling spacecraft.

The real reason we won't ever see them in MEverse is because they would be "too powerful", i.e. you could mount them on fighters / frigates and they would obliterate the most powerful warhsips in existence with trivial ease. It's inconvenient from a writing perspective, because this should have been one of the first things that weapon designers thought of when they started arming warships since it's something that exists in the real world and is highly practical to build. Nuclear shaped charges are frequently discussed when dealing with hypothetical treatments of space combat.

Normally they could have just handwaved it away as saying that they are really weak against shields or something, but that doesn't really work because it's method of damage is almost identical to that of the Thanix guns, which exist in-universe and is the most powerful weapon we know of. So they will just continue pretending that it doesn't exist. :ph34r:

#64
Moiaussi

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primero holodon wrote...

All a ship that size would do is consume massive amounts of resorces for maitenance and construction. The destiny ascension didn't exactly do much to tip the scales of the fight.


People keep forgetting that the Citadel was built specificly to favour the reapers. The DA was stuck in a nebula where all combat is close quarters and its main gun is much less of an advantage. Saren also cut off Council CEC preemptively, so there was no early warning. The Council fleet was caught completely off guard.

Most engagements will not be fought under those conditions.

#65
Guest_Gnas_*

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Moiaussi wrote...
Most engagements will not be fought under those conditions.


Speculative at best. There maybe no space battle in ME3 at all. It may all center around subterfuge or Shepard striking at the Reapers in darkspace. Anything is possible.

I do have to admit, seeing a huge ship would be cool though. Battles similiar to David Weber's in the Honor Harrington books would be interesting but not really visually stunning.

#66
Tennessee88

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Gnas wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Most engagements will not be fought under those conditions.


Speculative at best. There maybe no space battle in ME3 at all. It may all center around subterfuge or Shepard striking at the Reapers in darkspace. Anything is possible.

I do have to admit, seeing a huge ship would be cool though. Battles similiar to David Weber's in the Honor Harrington books would be interesting but not really visually stunning.


I believe what Moiaussi was referring to is the fact that dreadnoughts like the DA were not meant to fight in such close quarters. They are meant to be thousands of kilometers away. He isn't guessing about Mass Effect 3. He is simply stating that most engagements with dreadnoughts have never been under those conditions because they would never be deployed in such a manner if a fleet has a choice. Why they kept the DA so close is beyond me, surely there were other means to evacuate the council to her without having her right there. Had she been much further out the Geth would had had a taken a hell of a beating as they closed in to render her useless in combat, at least as a game changer.

#67
lovgreno

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To actualy let us see a dreadnought in action is a good enough reason to include one I think.

#68
Tennessee88

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lovgreno wrote...

To actualy let us see a dreadnought in action is a good enough reason to include one I think.


Surely we will see them in the upcoming game... even if it is just to watch the reapers rip them apart. I think an Alliance super dreadnought would be much better as the focus of a spin off game. Unless Cerberus and other factions are able to aquire enough tech though collectors, reapers, Leaviathan of Diis, etc. I would really love to see one of the most epic space battles of all time come out in this game.

#69
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@tennessee88 to see a battle with huge ships running each other down would be a spectacle but, my thoughts about such battles are based in many sic fi series where it seems epic battles appear to occur over great distances that than within eyeshot of each other.

#70
Tennessee88

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Gnas wrote...

@tennessee88 to see a battle with huge ships running each other down would be a spectacle but, my thoughts about such battles are based in many sic fi series where it seems epic battles appear to occur over great distances that than within eyeshot of each other.


I simply think we have something lost in translation. The distances we are talking about for dreadnoughts in the Mass Effect Universe are immense. Hence the DA's failure, as it was not at an optimal distance. If we are agreeing than I am sorry for beating a dead horse.

#71
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@Tennessee88 LOL I believe we are agreeing.

#72
Nashiktal

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Even at optimal distance, what the hell can a super Dreadnought do against a reaper? The only reason Sovereign was killed was because Shep damaged his "brain" shocking him to drop whatever protective barrier he had. Before that Sovereign killed a few dreadnoughts with a dramatic wave of its tentacles, while the entire alliance fleet harmlessly fired peashooters. (those ships were supposed to be dreadnoughts, don't get how they could mess that up....)



A reaper without it's barrier can be easily killed by the original SSV Normandy, a tiny frigate and two fighters killed Sovereign.

#73
Sinapus

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Reapers are tough, but can be killed. Vigil did note that the whole reason Saren was going through with finding the Conduit to insert forces into the Citadel and disrupt the defenses was that Sovereign could be destroyed if he'd simply went to the station and attacked, no matter how many Geth ships he had helping him. Getting him past the Citadel fleet and then closing the Citadel arms as a shield was needed so there wouldn't be a chance of reinforcements blasting Sovereign before he could open the relay into dark space.

Then Shepard comes along and opens the Citadel arms. Whatever happened to Sovereign after you killed  Mecha-Saren might have shortened the battle, but Sovereign's plan definitely involved not risking being pummeled to death by the organic race's ships before he could open the relay.

#74
SilverEST

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An Alliance Super Dread sounds like a fantastic idea, but as long as it can project interdiction fields!

#75
Moiaussi

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Gnas wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Most engagements will not be fought under those conditions.


Speculative at best. There maybe no space battle in ME3 at all. It may all center around subterfuge or Shepard striking at the Reapers in darkspace. Anything is possible.

I do have to admit, seeing a huge ship would be cool though. Battles similiar to David Weber's in the Honor Harrington books would be interesting but not really visually stunning.


If there is no space battle at all, then ship size is irrelevant and it would merely be for coolness factor.

Seriously, though, why would battles that do occur only be in nebulas? Shepard wouldn't be on the flagship most of the time anyway.