117 réponses à ce sujet

[SilverEST]

Plus, nebulae are bad to fight in since they aren't all that friendly as far as space phenomena go(especially if there's any young stars hiding in them).

[282xvl]

I think a casaba nuke would be rendered ineffective by kinetic barriers. To attain a useful velocity in space combat they thing would probably have to be launched fast enough for a barrier to detect and stop it. Any conventional warhead or projectile is stopped cold by barriers. A shaped-charge nuke is ideal against an unshielded target, but it would be detected and engaged/evaded with relative ease if it wasn't launched at extreme velocities. Nukes are very precisely triggered weapons and slamming into a kinetic barrier, even if the warhead penetrated, would IMO likely disable the nuke. If this were not so then why not load nukes into every single mass accelerator slug?



I always ASSUMED reapers had point defenses of some kind. This has not been proven but it seems to me they would be rather poorly built if they neglected this basic system. If they lack any means of successfully engaging fighter craft then it stands to reason they lack any effective means of countering long-range cruise missiles with gravity-shear warheads so I would still support SD's, but in that case honor-style SD(P)'s ftw.



That said, "reapers have no point defense - fighters and missiles pwn them because they are huuurrr durrr design" seems like a really ****** poor Deus Ex to me, and I would hate to have that happen.



I think Council/Alliance capital ships will be hoarded and would never be committed to close action with Reapers. If anyone remembers Babylon 5, the allies there hoarded their fleet for picked engagements against shadow and vorlon fleets where they could set up conditions of advantage and attack from ambush or with support of fixed defenses. The fleet's commanders often sacrificed whole worlds to avoid risking the fleet on unfavorable terms. I believe the council fleet would be a similarly guarded asset. To assume they would suicide into the reapers on first contact is probably giving them too little strategic credit.



More Babylon 5 coolness that could be incorporated... does anyone remember the episode where Sheridan had to choose between taking the fleet to defend centauri prime (homeworld of a major race) or another world with a larger population but lesser strategic importance? Sheridan chose to save lives over strategic value - paragon that he was. A similar dilemma should be put to Shepard at some point. Also, Sheridan's flagship was a technically-advanced, alien-ally-built White Star class FRIGATE... parallels anyone?



I personally do not accept the explanation that the death of the Sovereign "avatar" was mostly responsible for its barriers going down. I had this argument with others in another forum some months ago, and it came down to the Vigil quote posted above - Reapers are not immune to conventional weapons! This is clearly and canonically stated. They do very much fear being zergged by organic warships - if they did not then Sovereign would have flown up to the Citadel and declared that resistance was futile so bring it on.

[282xvl]

A lot of folks are using the fact that the Destiny Ascension performed poorly as proof positive that DNs or SDs are obsolete or just poor in principle. To this I say that I agree with the folks postulating that the DA would have got its licks in a lot more effectively if it hadn't been caught in unexpected worse-case circumstances. Canon is established that the Ascension's main gun would punch through the barriers on ANY Alliance ship in a SINGLE SHOT. This is assumed to include Alliance DN's. If this is so, then Geth ships (which appear IMO to be about light-cruiser weight) should be an easy one-shot-kill for the Ascension's main armament, if only she could use have used it. The Ascension only failed to live up to its tactical promise because it got surprised attacked at sub-optimal range and its main gun was rendered ineffective...



I think the reason the Destiny Ascension got caught up in knifefight range was because it was deployed politically instead of strategically. It was a political symbol and the flagship/administrative center of the fleet, therefore it had to be positioned right next to the citadel.



By its very nature (Relay Network Hub) the citadel is a knife-fight situation. This might also explain the predominantly cruiser defense fleet. It would be very difficult to fight over the citadel using DN's or SD's because the relays drop enemy ships right in your lap relative to optimal engagements ranges. If you positioned your DN's 100,000 KM from the citadel it would be easy for a ship relaying in 20,000 KM from the citadel to either A. Bomb it before you can engage, or B. Board it before you can engage, or C. Superimpose the citadel itself between your DN's before they can engage. The only way to defend the citadel is by contesting the relay transits - and therefore via non-DN-Optimal close-action.



Under other circumstances such as, say, defending Palaven etc I'm sure you could use DNs to their proper effect, as the relevant relay is probably millions of klicks from the target world, and any attacking reaper would have to approach in full view of the defending DN's and eat their fire for hours until closing to main-gun negation range, by which time the DN's should have withdrawn or skirmished back to keep the range open, as per established doctrine.



During all this time SR2's and fighters would be raiding the approaching reapers, and orbital defense accelerators adding to the DN fire.



In this circumstance I do not see that a reaper attack must necessarily be a walkover. Even if the reapers suffered 1 or 2 losses and a few "wounded" the engagement could be considered a success for the Citadel forces, and most of their DNs would probably escape harm while the reapers targeted the cruisers, fighters and SR2's or regular frigates swarming them.



At the very least a few reversals or examples of heavy-ish losses would force the reapers to consolidate their fleet if they want walkovers, and in so doing slow the rate of their genocide buying time for Shepard to eliminate them via deus ex or wizard or hax. (Would still suck to see that be the final solution, but ongoing, desperate fleet actions over the homeworlds of major races throughout the game to buy time for it would go very far towards making up for it!)

[Aedan_Cousland]

*Whew*

At first I thought this was another thread demaning a capital warship for Shepard in ME3, even though such a ship would be completely impractical for his mission.

But yes, I think the Alliance should expand it's fleet after the events of ME1. No matter whether you went Paragon or Renegade humanity has an expanded role in the galaxy, and now sits on the Citadel Council. Humanity is now sitting at the grown up's table, and should have a fleet that reflects that.

[Nashiktal]

282xvl wrote...

A lot of folks are using the fact that the Destiny Ascension performed poorly as proof positive that DNs or SDs are obsolete or just poor in principle.

No, i'm saying because every dreadnought in the Alliance fleet attacking sovereign at once didn't even scratch his paintjob, that ships like the DA are obsolete.

Look, sovereign tore through those dreadnoughts like they were paper. The entire fleet was firing on him and did no damage whatsoever. Yet, as soon as Shep damages Sovereigns mind while it was controlling Saren, the Normandy and two flanking fighters kill the Reaper with a single shot.

That is why I consider DA obsolete, at least in fighting the reapers. The size and power of the ship do not matter at all in the war against the reapers. I think the key lies in shutting off those powerful Eezio core that allow a dead reaper to float harmlessly in a Brown Dwarf, the same core that seems to power a very strong Barrier that can withstand the firepower of an entire fleet. You shut off that core, a small frigate can kill a reaper.

So instead of spending money on big ships that take time the universe doesnt have, the time and effort should be focused on tearing down the potent defenses the reapers seem to keep up effortlessly.

[adam_grif]

I think a casaba nuke would be rendered ineffective by kinetic barriers. To attain a useful velocity in space combat they thing would probably have to be launched fast enough for a barrier to detect and stop it. Any conventional warhead or projectile is stopped cold by barriers. A shaped-charge nuke is ideal against an unshielded target, but it would be detected and engaged/evaded with relative ease if it wasn't launched at extreme velocities. Nukes are very precisely triggered weapons and slamming into a kinetic barrier, even if the warhead penetrated, would IMO likely disable the nuke. If this were not so then why not load nukes into every single mass accelerator slug?

The devices don't actually have to detonate on contact with the hull, which is actually an advantage they have over regular disruptor torpedoes. It is less like a conventional shaped charge (i.e. with tank guns) and more like a disposable particle beam. The device itself can be detonated hundreds of meters away and still be effective. So, not only does it not have to get past barriers, the window of opportunity for warhead interception is slightly smaller.



The effects of the detonation should be very much the same as the Thanix gun for the reasons already stated.



Fighters already exist in-universe as a method of close range warhead delivery (as stupid as that is when you analyze it, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion), so there is no issue here with the warheads themselves being unable to get delivered to their targets. You could literally use existing fighters and just swap out disruptor torps for these devices.

I always ASSUMED reapers had point defenses of some kind. This has not been proven but it seems to me they would be rather poorly built if they neglected this basic system. If they lack any means of successfully engaging fighter craft then it stands to reason they lack any effective means of countering long-range cruise missiles with gravity-shear warheads so I would still support SD's, but in that case honor-style SD(P)'s ftw.

We have never had any indication that they do have point defense, but it's a reasonable assumption to make since apparently races in the galaxy already used fighters and had PD before carriers were introduced, implying that it was a pretty obvious thing to use. It's possible that they might not think them a threat since they were basically useless in the battle of the citadel, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they have PD.



However, as we know from the battle of the citadel, fighters can and regularly do make successful attack runs, it's just that their weapons were next to useless.

I personally do not accept the explanation that the death of the Sovereign "avatar" was mostly responsible for its barriers going down. I had this argument with others in another forum some months ago, and it came down to the Vigil quote posted above - Reapers are not immune to conventional weapons! This is clearly and canonically stated. They do very much fear being zergged by organic warships - if they did not then Sovereign would have flown up to the Citadel and declared that resistance was futile so bring it on.

Vigil said that a reaper wouldn't be able to take the combined fleets of the galaxy, and we can additionally infer that it didn't expect to be able to win a stand up fight with the combined citadel defense fleets (since it took a geth fleet with it). However, in the battle of the citadel cutscene, Sovereign's barriers go down the moment after you destroy Robosaren.



It would be a huge coincidence if the two things were unrelated. Although I do support the idea that Reapers can be killed by a thousand papercuts from contemporary citadel fleets, we were given no indication that this actually occurred here. One should expect that the barriers were slowly worn down over time, but the way it went down there, the barriers were invincible one second, and then the next, they went straight to zero. The way the cutscene was framed makes it seem fairly obvious that Bioware intended for us defeating Saren to be the thing that made the barriers drop.



Now, the idea that barriers drop when his avatar perishes is pretty dumb to begin with, but that's pretty low on the list of offensively stupid things in MEverse. In ME2 with Harbinger he can't take control of a new drone straight away when you kill a drone he's controlling, he pauses for a few seconds. We could take this to imply that when an avatar dies, the Reaper is stunned for a few seconds.



If this was the case, during the battle of the Citadel, killing robosaren stunned Sovvy for a few seconds, during which time the constant barrage of fire suddenly impacted the hull and did significant damage, preventing the barriers from being raised again (i.e. destroying the emitters on the surface of the reaper / damaging the ME core / damaging power routing).



If Sov did get killed by the fleet and Shepard had nothing to do with it, then really, Killing saren was meaningless to begin with since Robosaren would have died then straight away anyway.

[282xvl]

I reject that the ships firing on sovereign in ME 1 were all dreadnoughts, or all the dreadnoughts in the alliance fleet. I reject that they were even one dreadnought, as when compared to the ship model you buy in ME 2 of an Alliance Heavy Cruiser, that is exactly what they are. Turian ships pictured appeared same size as the Alliance vessels depicted, so also not DNs IMO. Additionally, codex does not downwardly revise DN fleet strength of either Turians or Alliance post battle of the citadel - indeed it upward revises Alliance to include the finished construction of the latest DN.



No DN's fired on sovereign at the citadel. Destiny Ascension never fired a main gun shot at anything, it was swarmed with Geth and busy trying to evac the council. It was too close to line up a shot without its movements telegraphing its intentions and the target dodging instantly, Geth or Reaper.



I still go back to Vigil clearly saying that sovereign could and most certainly would be killed if it challenged the organic fleets outright mano-et-mano. Therefore logic dictates that it 100% IS vulnerable to "conventional" warship fire in sufficient numbers.



Even if you discredit or disbelieve Vigil you still basically have to accept this as being true for the story to make any sense at all, since if Sovereign was utterly impervious to conventional weaponry there is no reason for subterfuge or Saren or Geth or anything else... it would just fly up and declare Reapers Gonna Reap 10 years before Shepard was even born.



I do agree completely that research effort and industrial capacity should be funneled into a weapon system that will penetrate or batter down Reaper barriers... for my part I believe that weapons system to be large-caliber mass accelerators or large-scale Thanix cannons - technologies that are lore-present and lore-proven for effectiveness (Klendagon MAC and Reaper choice of Thanix for Main Gun being the examples.)



Both these weapons in order to be of reaper or near-reaper class would need to be mounted on a DN or SD platform for mobile use or possibly as fixed orbital defenses of like size and power-generating capacity.

[282xvl]

adam_grif wrote...

The devices don't actually have to detonate on contact with the hull, which is actually an advantage they have over regular disruptor torpedoes. It is less like a conventional shaped charge (i.e. with tank guns) and more like a disposable particle beam. The device itself can be detonated hundreds of meters away and still be effective. So, not only does it not have to get past barriers, the window of opportunity for warhead interception is slightly smaller.

The effects of the detonation should be very much the same as the Thanix gun for the reasons already stated.

True enough, nuclear plasma jet would be similar to Thanix, but it be a very short "burst" compared to Thanix. Not sure if the "mass" of the plasma jet is sufficient to trigger barriers, if not then you have a brutally effective weapon (reaper shown to be very weak sans barriers) but if it does trigger the barrier it is probably on par with Thanix. Either way introducing that tech into ME seems unlikely - unless writers are paying attention to this thread

However, as we know from the battle of the citadel, fighters can and regularly do make successful attack runs, it's just that their weapons were next to useless.

I think lore establishes that Disruptor Torpedoes are the state-of-the-art barrier killer weapon for strike craft but are however far less deadly on a shot per shot basis compared to a DN or SD's main gun. "Useless" might not be fair, but certainly needed in ridiculously massive amounts to do useful harm. The question here is which will more cost efficiently and reliably deliver damage to hulls - the massed fighters or the equivilent in DN's or the equivalent in Thanix Frigates etc... this is difficult but fun to guesstimate.

Vigil said that a reaper wouldn't be able to take the combined fleets of the galaxy, and we can additionally infer that it didn't expect to be able to win a stand up fight with the combined citadel defense fleets (since it took a geth fleet with it). However, in the battle of the citadel cutscene, Sovereign's barriers go down the moment after you destroy Robosaren.

It would be a huge coincidence if the two things were unrelated. Although I do support the idea that Reapers can be killed by a thousand papercuts from contemporary citadel fleets, we were given no indication that this actually occurred here. One should expect that the barriers were slowly worn down over time, but the way it went down there, the barriers were invincible one second, and then the next, they went straight to zero. The way the cutscene was framed makes it seem fairly obvious that Bioware intended for us defeating Saren to be the thing that made the barriers drop.

Now, the idea that barriers drop when his avatar perishes is pretty dumb to begin with, but that's pretty low on the list of offensively stupid things in MEverse. In ME2 with Harbinger he can't take control of a new drone straight away when you kill a drone he's controlling, he pauses for a few seconds. We could take this to imply that when an avatar dies, the Reaper is stunned for a few seconds.

If this was the case, during the battle of the Citadel, killing robosaren stunned Sovvy for a few seconds, during which time the constant barrage of fire suddenly impacted the hull and did significant damage, preventing the barriers from being raised again (i.e. destroying the emitters on the surface of the reaper / damaging the ME core / damaging power routing).

If Sov did get killed by the fleet and Shepard had nothing to do with it, then really, Killing saren was meaningless to begin with since Robosaren would have died then straight away anyway.

Ok Concur. It is infered that the infantry combat against robosaren stunned sovvy. That said, I call Epic Fail on sovvy for bothering to occupy robosaren in the first place if one assumes that sovvy could have defeated the present alliance/council forces in open battle. From this I must conclude that the forces present would have been able to defeat sovvy outright given time to do so - otherwise why take the risk with robosaren? Unless sovvy calculated it would be defeated why not just spank the Alliance fleet and open the relay at leisure? I assume it took the robosaren gamble because it needed its allies RFN to survive the fight - and this implies that enough cruiser-weight ships (with attendant fighters/frigates etc) can eventually batter down a reaper's barriers. As such, DN or SD-level weapons should actually be more effective than you might think.

[Nashiktal]

I reviewed the battle of the citadel and I admit I was mistaken about the DN. The ships firing at Sovereign were using Dreadnought models, but was a mistake in the modeling department. So those models changed from dreadnought to cruiser.



In any case I still stand by my point. Buying and building a big ship will not help win this war. With the speed of the reapers, and their immense firepower, it wouldnt take long for a reaper to force a DN in to "knife" range. That is even if the combined might of all the dreadnoughts put together can handle that reaper fleet we saw at the end of ME2.



I have no doubt a single reaper can be torn apart by the combined might of the galaxy. However the Galaxy can be easily torn apart by the combined might of the reaper fleet.



We are in agreement on method, but not on delivery. With how long it would take to construct a DN, considering you could convince the nations of the galaxy to mobilize for war, What is a DN but a rather large target in space with a big "shoot me" labeled on the side? So not only are you dealing with a delivery system that is limited in number, but a reaper could force it into knife range, render its combat effectiveness nil, and then slice right through it.



I don't know what a better alternative might be. Maybe load up all the smaller ships and overwhelm the reapers with a wall of fire, maybe use fighters, maybe come up with a weapon that messes with Eezio cores. Whatever the method, I just don't think the Galaxy could make enough DN in time for the reaper invasion, and that is if they were even actively preparing for the reapers.

[282xvl]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

*Whew*

At first I thought this was another thread demaning a capital warship for Shepard in ME3, even though such a ship would be completely impractical for his mission.

But yes, I think the Alliance should expand it's fleet after the events of ME1. No matter whether you went Paragon or Renegade humanity has an expanded role in the galaxy, and now sits on the Citadel Council. Humanity is now sitting at the grown up's table, and should have a fleet that reflects that.

Indeed. Being on the poopy end of the stick of a futuristic sci-fi Washtington Naval Treaty is not my idea of a happy time for humanity. And besides, those damn Turians are building MORE DNs anyway despite their massive lead. I call shennangans.

As for Shepard and a capital ship flagship I catagorically reject that concept. Any SD flagship the Alliance builds should be Admiral Hackett's (with Shepard's mom as the Flag Captain, if you went spacer.) Shepard needs to have a small, agile flagship that fights out of its weight with a combination of advanced tech, deft/ace handling, player-character luck and solid plot armor, ala' Millenium Falcon, White Star and USS Defiant. Established protocol for sci-fi hero commanders is clear on this.

[adam_grif]

An additional talking point here is EDI's assertion in ME2 that "Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire". She says this in response to you saying "The Normandy's got guns, use 'em."



This must be an exaggeration to reconcile what Vigil said and Sovereign's actions, but it does at least tell us that bringing a dreadnought to a fight with a Reaper won't be an instant win.

I think lore establishes that Disruptor Torpedoes are the state-of-the-art barrier killer weapon for strike craft but are however far less deadly on a shot per shot basis compared to a DN or SD's main gun. "Useless" might not be fair, but certainly needed in ridiculously massive amounts to do useful harm. The question here is which will more cost efficiently and reliably deliver damage to hulls - the massed fighters or the equivilent in DN's or the equivalent in Thanix Frigates etc... this is difficult but fun to guesstimate.

I can't pull a direct quote on this one because I'm just going from memory, but iirc when you're on the citadel or illium in ME2 there is a news report about a memorial for some Systems Alliance air-wing, which it mentions suffered heavy losses in the attack on Sovereign, but kept persisting despite its attacks being ineffective.



If someone has a direct quote on that it would be helpful. It's also evidence that the Reapers do have point defense!

That said, I call Epic Fail on sovvy for bothering to occupy robosaren in the first place if one assumes that sovvy could have defeated the present alliance/council forces in open battle. From this I must conclude that the forces present would have been able to defeat sovvy outright given time to do so - otherwise why take the risk with robosaren? Unless sovvy calculated it would be defeated why not just spank the Alliance fleet and open the relay at leisure? I assume it took the robosaren gamble because it needed its allies RFN to survive the fight - and this implies that enough cruiser-weight ships (with attendant fighters/frigates etc) can eventually batter down a reaper's barriers.

In Sovereign's defense, Robosaren had a billion hitpoints and the fact that Shepard and Co beat him in a fight is pretty must just plot-power in action. Honestly, a smarter move would have been to not resurrect Saren until the fleet had been destroyed, because it's not like his body was going anywhere in the next 15 minutes. This never would have happened!



I think Saren's main concern wasn't necessarily the SA forces that were already there, but potential reinforcements that could be coming in ten or twenty minutes, not just from the SA but from other council races too, which would almost certainly include their Dreadnoughts and other big guns. This is just speculation, of course.



Additionally, Sovereign making smart moves has never really happened in-unvierse. It's been said before, but Sovereign could have just taken a more subtle approach to this whole situation and avoided combat all-together, would not have needed the conduit, and could have opened the door to the Reaper invasion hundreds of years ago.

[282xvl]

Nashiktal wrote...

I reviewed the battle of the citadel and I admit I was mistaken about the DN. The ships firing at Sovereign were using Dreadnought models, but was a mistake in the modeling department. So those models changed from dreadnought to cruiser.

In any case I still stand by my point. Buying and building a big ship will not help win this war. With the speed of the reapers, and their immense firepower, it wouldnt take long for a reaper to force a DN in to "knife" range. That is even if the combined might of all the dreadnoughts put together can handle that reaper fleet we saw at the end of ME2.

I have no doubt a single reaper can be torn apart by the combined might of the galaxy. However the Galaxy can be easily torn apart by the combined might of the reaper fleet.

We are in agreement on method, but not on delivery. With how long it would take to construct a DN, considering you could convince the nations of the galaxy to mobilize for war, What is a DN but a rather large target in space with a big "shoot me" labeled on the side? So not only are you dealing with a delivery system that is limited in number, but a reaper could force it into knife range, render its combat effectiveness nil, and then slice right through it.

I don't know what a better alternative might be. Maybe load up all the smaller ships and overwhelm the reapers with a wall of fire, maybe use fighters, maybe come up with a weapon that messes with Eezio cores. Whatever the method, I just don't think the Galaxy could make enough DN in time for the reaper invasion, and that is if they were even actively preparing for the reapers.

Good points - it is noteworthy that sovvy was mentioned as being able to put on a pretty incredible rate of speed, as makes sense due to its massive eezo core. To match this acceleration rate a proportionally similar-size eezo core would be needed - hence, IMO, DN or SD size platform.

Even if similar ship acclerations could not be feasibly achieved, a THANIX DN or SD should be fairly effective in knife-fight range (reapers definately are) as the Thanix appears to be targettable independent of the ship's axial direction (to an extent) as witnessed being done by sovvy. Thanix can also be installed in turreted setups because it doesn't need to straight linear hull space of a conventional mass accelerator cannon.

I should point out that nowhere have I said I believe the galaxy can possibly produce enough DN or SD class units (regardless of relative effectiveness) to actually fight off the reapers head-on. This is obviously impossible. I only suggest that a few additional DNs or prototype SDs, designed with reapers (or each other) in mind a enemies, with modernized weapon systems based on captured collector and reaper tech, could and should be ready in time.

These ships and the regular line of battle DNs would fight a grim, costly and ultimately losing battle to delay the reapers at heavy cost to buy Shepard time to deus ex their asses. The new ships would at least give them a fighting chance to do SOME relevant damage, and would be a very cool thing to behold. Additionally, it does make sense that the council would shelter in known and established doctrine, and wiser militaries then they oft do - hence DNs of the best quality and largest quantity possible.

If you were about to be invaded by dudes from outer space with M-16A4s and you had an established army and doctrine build around Rifled Muskets chances are you'd mass rifled musket infantry and do what you can with what you've got and what you are comfortable with - using tactics like ambush and guerilla fighting to maximize your effectiveness... Thus I propose as sensible in a story context with the Council races and their DNs, for better or worse.

[282xvl]

adam_grif wrote...

An additional talking point here is EDI's assertion in ME2 that "Reapers are impervious to dreadnought fire". She says this in response to you saying "The Normandy's got guns, use 'em."

This must be an exaggeration to reconcile what Vigil said and Sovereign's actions, but it does at least tell us that bringing a dreadnought to a fight with a Reaper won't be an instant win.

Indeed - I would wildly and without basis guess that around 5+ : 1 ratio of DN to Reaper would be minimum needed to have any hope of defeating it, and this including the DNs' attendant fighters and light capital units such as cruisers and frigates. Losses could probably be expected at upwards of 50%.

In a fleet engagement where, say 30 DN's ripple-fire salvoes on one single, targetted Reaper at a time I do think they could cause significantly distressing harm, especially if the Reapers have a high regard the sanctitiy of their own lives.

I can't pull a direct quote on this one because I'm just going from memory, but iirc when you're on the citadel or illium in ME2 there is a news report about a memorial for some Systems Alliance air-wing, which it mentions suffered heavy losses in the attack on Sovereign, but kept persisting despite its attacks being ineffective.

If someone has a direct quote on that it would be helpful. It's also evidence that the Reapers do have point defense!

Concur. I also remember hearing something about this but cannot for the life of me dredge up the exact quote reference at the moment. I submit that "ineffective" may have been exaggerated as with the EDI quote to simply mean really very pathetically weak, or not available in sufficient volume to be effective, or not give long enough to culminate in any visible effect during the duration of the battle.

In Sovereign's defense, Robosaren had a billion hitpoints and the fact that Shepard and Co beat him in a fight is pretty must just plot-power in action. Honestly, a smarter move would have been to not resurrect Saren until the fleet had been destroyed, because it's not like his body was going anywhere in the next 15 minutes. This never would have happened!

I think Saren's main concern wasn't necessarily the SA forces that were already there, but potential reinforcements that could be coming in ten or twenty minutes, not just from the SA but from other council races too, which would almost certainly include their Dreadnoughts and other big guns. This is just speculation, of course.

Additionally, Sovereign making smart moves has never really happened in-unvierse. It's been said before, but Sovereign could have just taken a more subtle approach to this whole situation and avoided combat all-together, would not have needed the conduit, and could have opened the door to the Reaper invasion hundreds of years ago.

Touche'

Modifié par 282xvl, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Moiaussi]

Nashiktal wrote...

No, i'm saying because every dreadnought in the Alliance fleet attacking sovereign at once didn't even scratch his paintjob, that ships like the DA are obsolete.

Look, sovereign tore through those dreadnoughts like they were paper. The entire fleet was firing on him and did no damage whatsoever. Yet, as soon as Shep damages Sovereigns mind while it was controlling Saren, the Normandy and two flanking fighters kill the Reaper with a single shot.

Every small ship attacking at once didn't do any better though. And Sovereign didn't really fire on much until after being docked. It rammed a Turian vessel of unknown class, but other than that, we don't know.

We do know that the DA wasn't instantly vapourized. We also know that any other DN's would have had the same problem as the DA, namely being stuck fighting at ranges they are not designed for.

Meanwhile, even if such vessels weren't any use against reapers directly, they would still be good at taking out any supporting fleets, such as any heretic Geth not eliminated by Legion's loyalty quest, indoctrinated 'friendly' vessels, any additional collector vessels or any other non-reaper enemy vessels.

By fighting at longer ranges, they might be safer from indoctrination effects too.

After Shepard takes out Mecha-Saren, for all we know Sovereign might have blown up on its own and the Normandy's shot been a coincidence. Even the collector vessel took more hits than that to take down, and that was from an upgunned Normandy, at knife fighting ranges, with the equivalent of a cruiser's armament.

[Phaelducan]

Best idea ever. Superdreadnaught = yay.

[Encarmine]

Phaelducan wrote...

Best idea ever. Superdreadnaught = yay.

I would love that, i would love even more if Sheperd got to command said super dreadnought, walking around doing crew talks would take a while though lol

[Sinapus]

Gnas wrote...
I do have to admit, seeing a huge ship would be cool though. Battles similiar to David Weber's in the Honor Harrington books would be interesting but not really visually stunning.

Just so long as we don't get a Codex pop-up detailing some new technological twist in naval combat right before the battle starts.



Also remember the Honorverse's tech is different from ME's so it doesn't exactly crossover well between the two. Weber made the impeller drive so he could have warships using broadside-oriented armaments to mimic the old sailing vessels from the Forrester novels. A targeting system that appears in more recent novels is supposed to have an effect similar to the introduction of radar-directed firecontrol during the Second World War. (Not sure I want to go into details. This is a spoiler forum for Mass Effect, not the Honorverse.)

Hm. I could test the text colors to hide spoilers. Hold on.

Highlight: this is a test

Modifié par Sinapus, 10 décembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Luigitornado wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I support Shepard saying "penis" in ME3.
(That's how we'll defeat the Reapers.)

Do you consider yourself funny?

You're unfamiliar with some of the ye olden jokes about why nations really build Dreadnaughts and superDreadnaughts, aren't you?

They were also called national phallic symbols for the insecure.

[TheRevanchist]

Keep in mind people that EDE said that Reaper shields are immune to Dreadnaught fire. In regards to the shields of the dead Reaper. Thannix Cannon basicly = totaly useless unless somehow upgraded.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...You're unfamiliar with some of the ye olden jokes about why nations really build Dreadnaughts and superDreadnaughts, aren't you?

They were also called national phallic symbols for the insecure.

Imagine what a blow to the self esteem it must have been for the turian and human captains when Sovereign charged right through them. "Our guns are sooo small compared to that! We must make thanix cannons to make up for this." "Everyone have more and bigger dreadnoughts than we do! We need a bigger dreadnought. No, make it a super dreadnought. With all kinds of guns. And fighters. And put guns on the guns."

It's like George Carlin said: "War is a competition on who have the biggest ****."

[Vaenier]

kylecouch wrote...

Keep in mind people that EDE said that Reaper shields are immune to Dreadnaught fire. In regards to the shields of the dead Reaper. Thannix Cannon basicly = totaly useless unless somehow upgraded.

Bad writing is no excuse. They required you to blow up the core for a dumb plot, and they had to make the blatently obvious and smart choice impossible to do.

If anything, its because they recharge faster than a single ship can damage them. Weaker fire would be even worse in fighting a reaper.

[Nashiktal]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

No, i'm saying because every dreadnought in the Alliance fleet attacking sovereign at once didn't even scratch his paintjob, that ships like the DA are obsolete.

Look, sovereign tore through those dreadnoughts like they were paper. The entire fleet was firing on him and did no damage whatsoever. Yet, as soon as Shep damages Sovereigns mind while it was controlling Saren, the Normandy and two flanking fighters kill the Reaper with a single shot.

Every small ship attacking at once didn't do any better though. And Sovereign didn't really fire on much until after being docked. It rammed a Turian vessel of unknown class, but other than that, we don't know.

We do know that the DA wasn't instantly vapourized. We also know that any other DN's would have had the same problem as the DA, namely being stuck fighting at ranges they are not designed for.

Meanwhile, even if such vessels weren't any use against reapers directly, they would still be good at taking out any supporting fleets, such as any heretic Geth not eliminated by Legion's loyalty quest, indoctrinated 'friendly' vessels, any additional collector vessels or any other non-reaper enemy vessels.

By fighting at longer ranges, they might be safer from indoctrination effects too.

After Shepard takes out Mecha-Saren, for all we know Sovereign might have blown up on its own and the Normandy's shot been a coincidence. Even the collector vessel took more hits than that to take down, and that was from an upgunned Normandy, at knife fighting ranges, with the equivalent of a cruiser's armament.

That isn't what I was getting at. With the Evidence provided, it seems even a small frigate like the normandy can kill a reaper once the core is down. So with recent advances in technology that gives a frigate the power of a cruiser, instead of trying to build a new DN in time for the invasion, (none of the galactic races are preparing for war, so it is unlikely any DN will be created in time) the current fleets should concentrate on updating current firepower, and figuring out a way to shut down the Reapers Eezio core.

Without that core, a bunch of fighters could probably kill a reaper.

[282xvl]

For an historical period from about 1700-1950 a nation's capital ship tonnage/order of battle was the State Penis. From ships of the line to ironclads to pre-dreadnoughts to dreadnoughts to battleships to aircraft carriers.



Nowadays it could be argued that the State Penis is measured in hundreds (or thousands... or tens of thousands) of Nuclear Warheads possessed. However once you possess the industrial and tech know-how to make them they can be built relatively cheaply in vast quantities compared to capital ships. Even the greatest nations counted capital ships in mere tens or dozens. (I will point out that I love Mass Effect for keeping this historical balance/valuation of capital ships.) For all intents and purposes, Dreadnoughts, their predecessors and their descendants were the greatest phallic symbols ever produced by mankind - evidence suggest Yamato and Musashi may have consumed >30% of Japan's industrial GDP during their construction. 2 ships! In the 50 years prior to WWII Japan consistently expended >50% of their GDP on naval build-up, mostly on battleships.



I suppose if we take the SR1 coup de grace as indicative of sovvy's unshielded durability then a case could be made for the reapers being Star Trek style cardboard, glass and styrofoam sans barriers. However I counter this argument with Joker's description of the reaper being able to "pull a turn that would shear any alliance vessel in half" or something to that effect. Materials science and sturdy construction technique seem to be available to reapers.



I look on SR1's killshot as more of a "dramatic finishing move" if you like - and keep in mind sovvy was pounded on by the whole fleet firing cruiser-weight guns immediately after losing barrier protection - it is just not as dramatically illustrated. The shots are shown fired though, and the order heard given.



As for shutting down the eezo core that would in effect be shutting down propulsion and barriers plus possibly powerplant as well (I assume reapers employ some eezo-based powerplant system as fusion reactor mass would be unavailable in dark space, and even on a low-simmer a fusion core does need SOME constant reactor fuel.)



In effect shutting down the eezo core by external attack by some means other than catastrophic direct-fire damage to said core would be the ULTIMATE Deus Ex. It is not a technology or tactic mentioned as viable or even considered anywhere in codex, lore or novels to my knowledge. A magical "!OFF!" switch for the reapers would most certainly defeat them easier and more effectively than a billion Death Stars but from an existing lore perspective it would be a pure case of "A Wizard Did It" logic - and that would be deplorable writing IMO.



As for the assertion that no races are preparing for war, I would argue that the Turians throwing out the Naval Treaty and ramping up DN production counts as both prepping for war and building DNs... Perhaps not for use specifically against reapers, but initially intended purpose aside, they WILL have said DNs. I doubt the Alliance will not at the very least attempt parity in new production hulls.

[GnusmasTHX]

It's probably because the SR1 shot Sovereign's "eyes"...



...



...?

[TheRevanchist]

282xvl wrote...

For an historical period from about 1700-1950 a nation's capital ship tonnage/order of battle was the State Penis. From ships of the line to ironclads to pre-dreadnoughts to dreadnoughts to battleships to aircraft carriers.

Nowadays it could be argued that the State Penis is measured in hundreds (or thousands... or tens of thousands) of Nuclear Warheads possessed. However once you possess the industrial and tech know-how to make them they can be built relatively cheaply in vast quantities compared to capital ships. Even the greatest nations counted capital ships in mere tens or dozens. (I will point out that I love Mass Effect for keeping this historical balance/valuation of capital ships.) For all intents and purposes, Dreadnoughts, their predecessors and their descendants were the greatest phallic symbols ever produced by mankind - evidence suggest Yamato and Musashi may have consumed >30% of Japan's industrial GDP during their construction. 2 ships! In the 50 years prior to WWII Japan consistently expended >50% of their GDP on naval build-up, mostly on battleships.

I suppose if we take the SR1 coup de grace as indicative of sovvy's unshielded durability then a case could be made for the reapers being Star Trek style cardboard, glass and styrofoam sans barriers. However I counter this argument with Joker's description of the reaper being able to "pull a turn that would shear any alliance vessel in half" or something to that effect. Materials science and sturdy construction technique seem to be available to reapers.

I look on SR1's killshot as more of a "dramatic finishing move" if you like - and keep in mind sovvy was pounded on by the whole fleet firing cruiser-weight guns immediately after losing barrier protection - it is just not as dramatically illustrated. The shots are shown fired though, and the order heard given.

As for shutting down the eezo core that would in effect be shutting down propulsion and barriers plus possibly powerplant as well (I assume reapers employ some eezo-based powerplant system as fusion reactor mass would be unavailable in dark space, and even on a low-simmer a fusion core does need SOME constant reactor fuel.)

In effect shutting down the eezo core by external attack by some means other than catastrophic direct-fire damage to said core would be the ULTIMATE Deus Ex. It is not a technology or tactic mentioned as viable or even considered anywhere in codex, lore or novels to my knowledge. A magical "!OFF!" switch for the reapers would most certainly defeat them easier and more effectively than a billion Death Stars but from an existing lore perspective it would be a pure case of "A Wizard Did It" logic - and that would be deplorable writing IMO.

As for the assertion that no races are preparing for war, I would argue that the Turians throwing out the Naval Treaty and ramping up DN production counts as both prepping for war and building DNs... Perhaps not for use specifically against reapers, but initially intended purpose aside, they WILL have said DNs. I doubt the Alliance will not at the very least attempt parity in new production hulls.

Please keep in mind Turians only throw out the doctrine if you let the Council die. Not only that but the Asari say "F*ck it" and stop making ships altogeather. And of course lets not forget you lose the DA...the very symbol of morale for all of the Council races basicly. Like you said yourself, lore has established that the DA can kick some serious ass when not forced into "knife-fight" ranges. So I think letting that die for the sake a few easily replacable human crusiers is a bad tacticle move IMO.

Of course if you allowed the DA to be destroyed simply because the Council was on it. Then you are letting petty and biased feelings interfear with strategic and logistical judgement. IMO anyway.

Modifié par kylecouch, 11 décembre 2010 - 02:19 .