273 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

slimgrin wrote...
Edit: Bioware, for the love of god, will you please release some concrete information about this game? Everyone else is informing while you guys are peddling campaign slogans.

Heh...

Hawke:
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In Exile wrote...
You're more generous than I am. The control scheme, hotkeys, even the interface is better designed for the PC compared to ME2, which is just a direct  console port. The UI is outright the UI they have on consoles with no  effort made at all to accomodate it for the PC beyond adding a mouse. I  just didn't appreciate how bad it was until playing ME1.

Oh no, its rather terrible, I've just sort of put ME2 out of my mind. WIth ME1, its better because they had Demiurge dedicated to porting it over whereas with ME2 it was done simultaneously in house along with the 360 version. Thats why I'm worried how DA2 for PC will shape up if the design focus is on the consoles with the chanegs being simply "good enough" for the PC. The positive I hope is that they already had the UI and engine designed for the PC with Origins, but still, thats not speaking at all of how DA2 is trying to be a better PC game than Origins.

In Exile wrote...
I don't  think DA2 will have this problem because they already have a working  control scheme for the PC and I don't see any reason they'd abandon it,  but then again, they had that for ME1 PC and we got ME2.

True- I just wonder if any changes being made at a fundamental design level are being done with primarily the consoles in mind or if they're being cognisant of the PC as well.

In Exile wrote...
They're  patting themselves on the back for it, though, and that's not a quality I admire in a designer. I believe in showing versus telling. That being  said, the game looks very good.

Oh, thats true, but they are showing it too.

In Exile wrote...
Was the dialogue system link you had largely spoiler free? I really want to see what in action but I  avoid gaming media for fear of spoilers.

I guess? Its a decent quality bootleg from Gamescom I think, so the audio isn't great. Its nothing too spoiler-ish though from what I can gather and anything that may be there is all out of any context for it to make sense.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[slimgrin]

Lol! Holy sh*t you've outdone yourself Brock.



And I say bring on the high end pc requirements as well as DX 11. 99% of the gaming market is based on outdated hardware.

[Leonia]

So.. for someone who hasn't played any of the Deus Ex games (yeah, I suck), is this newer game a sequel or what? Can it be played without playing the other games? 'Cause ya'll are making it sound kind of cool and I haven't played a good sci-fi in a long time.

[DMC12]

leonia42 wrote...

So.. for someone who hasn't played any of the Deus Ex games (yeah, I suck), is this newer game a sequel or what? Can it be played without playing the other games? 'Cause ya'll are making it sound kind of cool and I haven't played a good sci-fi in a long time.

It's a prequel, so yeah you don't need to play the other ones.

[DarthCaine]

leonia42 wrote...

So.. for someone who hasn't played any of the Deus Ex games (yeah, I suck), is this newer game a sequel or what? Can it be played without playing the other games? 'Cause ya'll are making it sound kind of cool and I haven't played a good sci-fi in a long time.

It's a prequel with a different protagonist and different characters. So you're good

[slimgrin]

leonia42 wrote...

So.. for someone who hasn't played any of the Deus Ex games (yeah, I suck), is this newer game a sequel or what? Can it be played without playing the other games? 'Cause ya'll are making it sound kind of cool and I haven't played a good sci-fi in a long time.

 

Its a prequel to a seminal pc game of yore. I'll be playing the original anyway, but whether these guys are just riding shirt tails or not remains to be seen. Looks good so far. 

[Brockololly]

leonia42 wrote...

So.. for someone who hasn't played any of the Deus Ex games (yeah, I suck), is this newer game a sequel or what? Can it be played without playing the other games? 'Cause ya'll are making it sound kind of cool and I haven't played a good sci-fi in a long time.

Its a prequel actually. The original Deus Ex is set in 2052 while the new DE game, Deus Ex: Human Revolution is set in 2027.

Edit: Triple Ninja'd:ph34r::ph34r:

You can pick up the original for download dirt cheap many places- Steam usually has it on sale often and I think Games for Windows had it for sale for 99 cents this past week even. The graphics may be dated since its a 10 year old game but its quality.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Leonia]

Well, that's two totally different opinions to consider. I also haven't played Assassin's Creed II because I haven't played the first game. It's always a pesky thing when you want to jump in on a series in the middle.

But thanks for the info all the same.

Hmm, I wonder if GOG has the original? Or Steam. Yeah I'll check it out on Steam. Still half-way through my BG 1 playthrough at the moment so it will be awhile before I can try out DX anyway.

Modifié par leonia42, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:42 .

[DarthCaine]

slimgrin wrote...

I'll be playing the original anyway, but whether these guys are just riding shirt tails or not remains to be seen.

It took me several attemps over a period of 2 years to get into Deus Ex 'cos of the graphics. Make sure you download all the graphic mods like HDTP and New Vision. I kept getting put off by the first level and never played after it, I only finished it a few months ago. It get's a lot better after the first few missions, it grows on you, but don't expect the BEST GAME EVAR nostalgic gamers say it is, I still say RPGs like ME, KOTOR, DAO and TW are better

Invisible War on the other hand I thought was freakin horrible

Modifié par DarthCaine, 06 décembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[PARAGON87]

Hey, also I have the links for all things Deus Ex on page 7.  I would put it on the OP, but I don't want BioWare locking the thread thinking I'm advertising for SquareEnix!

Plus I don't want to take sales away from DA2, being the good fan I am.  :innocent:

[Kronner]

I am gonna buy Deus Ex: HR for sure, DA2 definitely not on launch day, maybe later in the year if the gameplay is ok. Also, I prefer sci-fi over fantasy, so Deus Ex has another advantage here.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Matchy Pointy]

Kronner wrote...

I am gonna buy Deus Ex: HR for sure, DA2 definitely not on launch day, maybe later in the year if the gameplay is ok. Also, I prefer sci-fi over fantasy, so Deus Ex has another advantage here.

For me it's the other way around (except that I kinda want more sci-fi RPGs as well).

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

Morroian wrote...

And just what elements does he mean anyway?

* Sigh*

Only on this site.

Only on this site do people ask questions?  I wondered what he meant myself. There's a difference between challenging the validity of the premise and asking for clarification.

Lets say the interviewer then went on to list some.  A few I might agree with fit his definition of a stripped down mechanic, others I might disagree.   To state that Bioware is objectively doing some vague thing without specific examples and without describing them, then using that as the basis for a question means the person reading or answering can assume it means whatever they want it to mean.

[ErichHartmann]

slimgrin wrote..
And I say bring on the high end pc requirements as well as DX 11. 99% of the gaming market is based on outdated hardware.

DX 11 cards haven't been out long enough for developers to utilize their real potential.  Just read about tessellation.  Slapping on DX 11 support doesn't automatically guarantee better visuals.  

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lets say the interviewer then went on to list some.  A few I might agree with fit his definition of a stripped down mechanic, others I might disagree.   To state that Bioware is objectively doing some vague thing without specific examples and without describing them, then using that as the basis for a question means the person reading or answering can assume it means whatever they want it to mean.

If you read earlier on in the interview the IGN person brings up streamlining in games in general with respect to Bioshock compared to System Shock and specifically brings up ME2 and the whole inventory deal in contrast to how DE is keeping the grid inventory. I'd imagine that and the perceived changes to DA2 is what they're bringing up.

[upsettingshorts]

I did, and I have argued that the changes to ME2's inventory produced measurable benefits - namely variety in weapon performance characteristics, though I imagine Bioware themselves would point out the locked outfits as being a positive - that go beyond simply "cutting out something that's not intuitive" - that's the kind of issue I'd raise with some of the potential examples, though not all of them. Bioshock and System Shock aren't Bioware games, and are hard to consider when the question names "Bioware" and "Dragon Age" and "Mass Effect."

To me, a lot - but not all - of features that get described as "dumbed down" or "streamlined" in Bioware games or games in general represent choices in favor of something else, not simply a reduction in complexity or a straight removal.  Even the ones I don't like.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To me, a lot - but not all - of features that get described as "dumbed down" or "streamlined" in Bioware games or games in general represent choices in favor of something else, not simply a reduction in complexity or a straight removal.  Even the ones I don't like. 

Indeed, there can't be many examples of changes that reduce complexity for the sake of reduced complexity, all the ones I can think of right now address some issue with the previous game.

[MerinTB]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
To me, a lot - but not all - of features that get described as "dumbed down" or "streamlined" in Bioware games or games in general represent choices in favor of something else, not simply a reduction in complexity or a straight removal.  Even the ones I don't like. 

Indeed, there can't be many examples of changes that reduce complexity for the sake of reduced complexity, all the ones I can think of right now address some issue with the previous game.

I'm mostly the opposite.  Since BG2 forward most of the changes (not all, but most) that BioWare has been making to cRPGs have been changes away from what I prefer.  Occasionally they make a step backwards heading towards things they had cut out, and sometimes some changes are actually IMO for the better.

ME1 to ME2 was, overall, an improvement IMO.  They went way too far in how they cut out RPG elements, also IMO, but most of what they did was to address problems with ME1's implementation (not RPG elements, just how they implemented them.)  The most glaring for me was inventory.  It's not too annoying on a first playthrough of ME1, but any plus game becomes an exercise in tedium as you omni-gel everything (or don't pick it up at all, I guess... could you choose to not pick things up?)  ME2 went way too far, as far as I'm concerned, with streamlining the inventory system... but, overally, ME2's inventory was BETTER and MORE ENJOYABLE than ME1's.  It still was far from what I'd consider even close to perfect, but it did address adequately a problem with ME1's implementation of inventory.

I don't mean to tell people what to play, or try to define game genre's for people...

but (to give a different example as analogy - and please remember, analogys are not equivalencies... ) if you like tension in a story and you want things to be surprises and slowly revealed, but you don't like gore or monsters or supernatural stuff or serial killers... maybe, just maybe, instead of telling the horror movie makers to cut out the stuff in horror movies that you don't like (stuff that is really kinda what makes a movie a horror movie) just so you can keep the few elements you do like in horror movies, maybe instead you should consider watching a different genre of film like mysteries or suspense thrillers (which both have surprises and things to figure out without supernatural, monsters, gore, etc., as staples)...

just saying - for your own benefit, maybe if you like comedy but not romance... romantic comedies are probably not your genre.

Ending the analogy - story and choices exist in games that aren't RPGs.  If too many RPG elements are tedious and not fun for you, instead of hoping those games full of tedium remove said elements, maybe look at games that hold the elements you like without the tedium you don't.
OR (as some of you probably do, and I as often do with many games) hold your nose at the stuff you don't like and enjoy the parts you do, if you enjoy those parts enough to put up with the parts you don't.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
Ending the analogy - story and choices exist in games that aren't RPGs.  If too many RPG elements are tedious and not fun for you, instead of hoping those games full of tedium remove said elements, maybe look at games that hold the elements you like without the tedium you don't.
OR (as some of you probably do, and I as often do with many games) hold your nose at the stuff you don't like and enjoy the parts you do, if you enjoy those parts enough to put up with the parts you don't.

Which games allow you to customize the apperance and gender of your protagonist, directly influence each interaction with an NPC, and make direct story choices that alter the playing experience as you play it?

I'm not trying to be snarky - this is an honest question because this is something I quite like in games. As far as I know, the only hybrids of this sort are very recent, i.e. Mass Effect and maybe Alpha Protocol or the Witcher despite the fact these last two games effectively lock you into name, gender and apperance.

[Ziggeh]

MerinTB wrote...
I'm mostly the opposite.  Since BG2 forward most of the changes (not all, but most) that BioWare has been making to cRPGs have been changes away from what I prefer.  Occasionally they make a step backwards heading towards things they had cut out, and sometimes some changes are actually IMO for the better.

Oh, I'm not saying they were always preferable. For me, by and large they have been, but I get that's far removed from "good" or "bad", just that I can't think of an instance were something was cut out purely because it was too complex.

MerinTB wrote...
ME1 to ME2 was, overall, an improvement IMO.  They went way too far in how they cut out RPG elements, also IMO, but most of what they did was to address problems with ME1's implementation (not RPG elements, just how they implemented them.)  The most glaring for me was inventory.  It's not too annoying on a first playthrough of ME1, but any plus game becomes an exercise in tedium as you omni-gel everything (or don't pick it up at all, I guess... could you choose to not pick things up?)  ME2 went way too far, as far as I'm concerned, with streamlining the inventory system... but, overally, ME2's inventory was BETTER and MORE ENJOYABLE than ME1's.  It still was far from what I'd consider even close to perfect, but it did address adequately a problem with ME1's implementation of inventory.

This is probably the closest example to something that was, but again, it solves a couple of things, fixed body types and animations, characterisation issues, weapon variety, etc. ME is a bit of an odd bird because the combat elements of an rpg were somewhat at odds with its actual combat, plus, as you say ME1's inventory was a pretty horrid setup, and the answer to all of that was the same. Perhaps they did go a little far, but I think that would bring us back to preferences.

I probably have quite an odd view of inventories mind, I think I've seen enough of them, and while they've added a good deal to many rpgs, I'd prefer to see some innovation rather than replication.

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Ending the analogy - story and choices exist in games that aren't RPGs.  If too many RPG elements are tedious and not fun for you, instead of hoping those games full of tedium remove said elements, maybe look at games that hold the elements you like without the tedium you don't.
OR (as some of you probably do, and I as often do with many games) hold your nose at the stuff you don't like and enjoy the parts you do, if you enjoy those parts enough to put up with the parts you don't.

Which games allow you to customize the apperance and gender of your protagonist, directly influence each interaction with an NPC, and make direct story choices that alter the playing experience as you play it?

I'm not trying to be snarky - this is an honest question because this is something I quite like in games. As far as I know, the only hybrids of this sort are very recent, i.e. Mass Effect and maybe Alpha Protocol or the Witcher despite the fact these last two games effectively lock you into name, gender and apperance.

You listed what you wanted:
- customize appearance of MC
- influence interaction with an NPC
- make direct story choices that alter the playing experience as you play it

What are the elements you don't like?  If I know what to avoid I can help you better.

I'll admit - customizing the appearance is pretty much an RPG element, though many RPGs (many very good ones) don't allow for it at all - but there are games out there that allow for it.

So, again, what RPG elements are you NOT wanting?

[Bruno Hslaw]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution, if remotely the same time frame IMO. This will pass the time while I see if they make DA2 a lemon like I fear or if they get their act together.



I had long planned on leaving DA2 to see if they screw it up or if actual none biased reports say its a winner. I have long given up on taking anything BW says with anything other than a pinch of salt.



Sounds great to me.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
You listed what you wanted:
- customize appearance of MC
- influence interaction with an NPC
- make direct story choices that alter the playing experience as you play it

What are the elements you don't like?  If I know what to avoid I can help you better.

I'll admit - customizing the appearance is pretty much an RPG element, though many RPGs (many very good ones) don't allow for it at all - but there are games out there that allow for it.

So, again, what RPG elements are you NOT wanting?

The only RPG feature I actually dislike and would not purchase a game based on is a create-your-own party approach. I like for part of the PC to be defined within the context of the story.

I am honestly indifferent to all other features. So whether a game has the textris-like inventory of NWN/BG or the non-inventory of ME2, it's all the same to me.

Though I should add I prefer pause & play full party combat to any other forms of combat, so I would rank (say from Bioware) DA:O > KoTOR > ME > JE.

ETA: 

This is basically where our conflict (as user bases) arises from. What I want in a game are precisely those features that are almost RPG exclusive. But I want them in a different way from the traditional RPG gameplay features, i.e. the fill-in-the-blank character and party creation.

This leads to a preferenece for features like VO, iconic apperances instead of fully customizable inventory and cinematic presentation.

Modifié par In Exile, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Qara]

The problem with them coming out on the same day is that they'll end up canabalising each others sales. Half of the game's audience will by DE:HR and half will buy DA2, no one wins as both games will be considered a failure and wont get a sequel.

[PARAGON87]

csoulsby wrote...

The problem with them coming out on the same day is that they'll end up canabalising each others sales. Half of the game's audience will by DE:HR and half will buy DA2, no one wins as both games will be considered a failure and wont get a sequel.

That's a bit pessimistic, don't you think?  Possibly day one sales this will effect, but for preorder it won't really hurt (since only the die-hards preorder and will get it anyway).  But what about day two, day three, day fifty-five?  The effect gets even more minimal as the game depreciates in value.

Only if you're strapped for cash and can only choose one, I guess it would have an effect.  Then there's a used game market so the games will only get cheaper.