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About the icons that represent intent

Débuté par Guest_Illborne_* , déc. 05 2010 04:20

372 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Guest_Illborne_*
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 04:20

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I was just about to contribute to some off-topic banter that went on in one of the popular threads, but I realized that my own ramblings were not even on the topic of the off-topic argument.
So here is a brand new topic about the dialogue icons:

I don't really have any problems with the inclusion of icons that work as pointers for the intent of the dialogue, but a lingering little fear of mine tells me that I may be able to guess the effects the separate dialogue options have on the character(s) my character is speaking with from the icons alone.
For example: The "peaceful" icon grants positive sanctions to my character, while the "aggressive" icon grants negative sanctions.

This is just speculation, but if it is the case, I’m afraid that this new system may lead to some heavy hand holding – and (imo) take away some very immersive and believable mechanics from the game.
Take Sten from DAO: My experience with Sten was that mindlessly agreeing with him or trying to suck up to him led to disapproval. In order to achieve approval from Sten my dialogue choices had to reflect authority and a sense of duty, not just the occasional “yay” or “nay” - as this was integral to the personal ideology of the character (Sten).

I'm wondering how the icons will integrate into the approval system.
Will they scrap the sense of having to "know the characters" (as I felt was the case with Sten) in order to achieve the intended reaction from them? Will an aggressive (or negative) icon always equal rivalry points? Will a peaceful (or positive) icon always equal friendship points?

Modifié par Illborne, 05 décembre 2010 - 04:22 .

#2
Shepard Lives
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 04:34

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Like I said in other threads, I think the lack of a Paragon/Renegade meter and the presence of a friendship/rivalry one means that dialogue won't boil down to mindlessly choosing the red or blue option.

I don't really think you'll be able to get every companion to like you simply by being nice to them. Some, maybe, but characters like Sten or Morrigan won't respect you if you act like that.

Plus, Gaider has said a couple of times that your relationships with companions are much more affected by your actions than by your dialogue with them, which is a good thing in my book.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 05 décembre 2010 - 04:36 .

#3
Snoteye
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 04:38

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The icons only represent intent. How the message is received by the NPC is a separate matter altogether and they have no direct relation to approval friendship/rivalry. The icons were added to reduce risk of asari mind-raping from players misunderstanding paraphrasals.

Yeah, if you generally know how the NPC responds to things you will probably be able to metagame the icons, but most likely you could do so without the icons anyway.

#4
Mary Kirby
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:21

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Snoteye wrote...

The icons only represent intent. How the message is received by the NPC is a separate matter altogether and they have no direct relation to approval friendship/rivalry. The icons were added to reduce risk of asari mind-raping from players misunderstanding paraphrasals.
Yeah, if you generally know how the NPC responds to things you will probably be able to metagame the icons, but most likely you could do so without the icons anyway.


This. Yes. The icon tells you what tone you are selecting. They are, "I am going to say something psychotic," or "I am going to be a smartarse." Not, "This is the option the NPC will like." NPCs are just as likely to hate your jokes or your interpret your attempts to be nice as butt-kissing.

#5
Crimson Invictus
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:26

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I can already foresee people complaining the icon doesn't make them think of X tone.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 05 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

#6
Dave of Canada
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:30

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I'm imagining people killing off companions (if possible) for not laughing at their jokes, the people from these boards are spiteful.

#7
Guest_Guest12345_*
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:30

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I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?

#8
Eveangaline
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:31

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm imagining people killing off companions (if possible) for not laughing at their jokes, the people from these boards are spiteful.


If I'm going to set up ten minutes setting up an aristocrats joke, they better damn well laugh at it.

#9
Nerivant
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:32

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scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear.


This directly contradicts itself. ^_^

#10
Mary Kirby
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:32

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scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?


Quit murdering kittens. Jerk.

#11
Brockololly
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:33

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I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?

#12
Crimson Invictus
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:34

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As long as there is a deadpan irony icon, I should be okay.



Perhaps they could be added to the forum.

#13
Mary Kirby
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:34

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Brockololly wrote...

I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?


Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.

#14
nightcobra
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:35

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Mary Kirby wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?


Quit murdering kittens. Jerk.


at this rate, we'll be responsible for the eradication of the animal known as the domestic cat.

#15
Nerivant
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:35

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?


Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.


Are all the icons pictures of Oghren? 

That would explain a lot.

#16
jackkel dragon
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:36

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Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I can already foresee people complaining the icon doesn't make them think of X tone.



Reminds me of Paragon/Renegade.

It's not new, some people see things differently than others.

#17
Mercuriol
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:36

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All fine by me as long as it doesn't boil down to good/bad options everywhere. I like grey/grey.



But yeah sometimes ME's choices were a little unclear.

#18
Dave of Canada
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:36

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.


"Mm... I think I'll take this one."
*aggressive icon* I hate you
"OH GOD I HATE YOU SO MUCH IT'S MAKING MY BOWELS ACT UP"

#19
Guest_Illborne_*
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:36

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.

There. Placed my preorder. This better not be a lie.

#20
upsettingshorts
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:37

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jackkel dragon wrote...

Reminds me of Paragon/Renegade.


That's different, even Bioware hasn't figured out what those mean.  Zing!

#21
Brockololly
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:38

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?


Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.


So its like Fable!

...
...
:mellow:

I just want the joker mask to result in Hawke doing zany, slapstick antics  with plenty of banana peel slipping and smacking companions in the face with frying pans. That would be the height of dark heroic fantasy.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 décembre 2010 - 07:40 .

#22
Piecake
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:39

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scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?


How you doin;)

just think of the intent icon as Mary screamed in terror,  Joe whispered conspiratorially, said Cocoabutter, mockingly

You know, things that books do that convey tone.  But hey, maybe you like 'said Joe' repeated ad infinitum, but that seems a bit dull to me

#23
Snoteye
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:42

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Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Perhaps they could be added to the forum.

Still only intent, it wouldn't change anything.


nightcobra8928 wrote...

at this rate, we'll be responsible for the eradication of the animal known as the domestic cat.

Always a bright side to things.

#24
aimo_ahmed
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:45

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Mary Kirby wrote...

This. Yes. The icon tells you what tone you are selecting. They are, "I am going to say something psychotic," or "I am going to be a smartarse." Not, "This is the option the NPC will like." NPCs are just as likely to hate your jokes or your interpret your attempts to be nice as butt-kissing.


A question regarding this; During conversation time, especially with plot critical events, would the NPCs Hawke speak to display any visual cues like body language or intonation that may clue player in to choosing a clear 'safe' or ' trouble' dialogue path before committing to that mouse click?
Because if clicking on an icon means killing the kittens, I sure as hell don't want to press it :crying:

#25
jackkel dragon
Posté 05 décembre 2010 - 07:46

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Illborne wrote...
For example: The "peaceful" icon grants positive sanctions to my character, while the "aggressive" icon grants negative sanctions.


This is where I like Alpha Protocol: Being a jerk to 2-3 characters makes them love you (literaly, which is kinda creepy.) Being nice makes the most friends, but pisses 4-5 people off to the point where potential allies try to kill you. And being "suave" kills your relationship with almost everyone for some reason...

Edit: And being a jerk has its own benefits in AP. While everyone except 1-2 characters want you dead because you rickrolled them/killed their puppy, you get things like damage bonuses and even more approval of the people who just want to blow **** up.

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 05 décembre 2010 - 07:48 .

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