372 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And in all those cases, Alistair answers "Maker's breath" and we go on as before.  You could fill in how you thought the line should have been delivered.  There's no cognitive dissonance at all.  I understand completely what you're saying, but this isn't a very good example.

Alistair doesn't say that. What he does say is basically, "Yes, sorry." and obeys. Which makes it pretty clear he takes it as an order.

There's lots of dissonance, because no one, especially people who can banter, reply to banter by standing straight and saluting.

Are we thinking of the same dialogue?  This is in the Landsmeet when Alistair is giving his acceptance speech?  He says a rather horrified/ exasperated "Maker's breath" and goes on with his speech.  That line and delivery could fit any of the contexts you gave.

You still won't be able to.  That's what Mary Kirby is confirming earlier in the thread, that the little icons will not predict how an NPC will react.

No, you don't understand. If I deal with Morrigain and I have two options "We should kick every puppy under the sun!" and "I want to hug all innocent children and give them flowers!" then what we know about Morrigain will pretty clearly let us know that if both are delivered straight, the first will mean lost approval and the second will be gained.

But if the second is sarcastic and I happen to think it is sarcastic and Morrigain gets upset because the game thinks it's done straight, and I lose approval by doing something I didn't intend, that's a problem.

And what if your PC says it sarcastically but Morrigan doesn't pick up that you're being sarcastic?  Either we'll still have the same problem in DA2, or else the icons are going to tell us what comes next and they are controlling the NPCs, not just the PC's voiceover.

[Risax]

David Gaider wrote...

Risax wrote...
Do we get a turtorial of what all icons mean?
I mean some are pretty obvious, but if there are icons for lieing killing and attacking, it could be usefull.

I'm not sure what the tutorial consists of, or if the icons will be listed in the manual (though that seems most likely). For the most part they're pretty self-explanatory, as well as colour-coded.

And now where on the subject. Can you still Persuade people, and does it have an icon if you can?

There's no single "persuade" option. What you have is the occasional special Diplomacy, Charm or Intimidate option in dialogue that's dependent on your dominant tone. And these will have an icon to single them out, yes.

In Origins you had to have a high Coercion to persuade certain people, how is this done now?

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...

There's no single "persuade" option. What you have is the occasional special Diplomacy, Charm or Intimidate option in dialogue that's dependent on your dominant tone. And these will have an icon to single them out, yes.

Does that mean we aren't going to get that option if we haven't been consistently diplomatic/ charming/ jerkish to that NPC?

Modifié par Addai67, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[David Gaider]

Addai67 wrote...
And what if your PC says it sarcastically but Morrigan doesn't pick up that you're being sarcastic?  Either we'll still have the same problem in DA2, or else the icons are going to tell us what comes next and they are controlling the NPCs, not just the PC's voiceover.

The icons are about conveying the writer's intent to you, the player. If the PC says something sarcastically and we conveyed that to you in the paraphrase, along with the icon to make it clear, and you picked it then Morrigan will respond to the sarcasm. How she responds you won't know-- the PC's intent is being conveyed, not the effect.

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

Does that mean we aren't going to get that option if we haven't been consistently diplomatic/ charming/ jerkish to that NPC?

I'm hoping this is rather done by providing single option that's available to anyone, and it's just the exact tone of the option that depends on "dominant personality" thing.

The alternative -- having only intimidate option in some dialogue and only diplomatic option in some other, and the option not being available if your dominant tone doesn't match it -- would be rather frustrating, given how the tone thing is determined.

[TMZuk]

Since there now has emerged a thread specificly for the subject, I'll post my worries about what icons, dialogue-wheel and paraphrasing will mean for the game..

The icons will take away the illusion covering the game-mechanics. When playing a game like DA:O, or BG/BG2, I am not specificly trying to gain x amount of reputation-points or experience when choosing my reply, or unlocking a specific quest.. Rather I am trying as hard as I can to simply choose the line I feel is the most in character.

Having the icons will make this much harder, since I will quickly, through playing the game, learn what sort of replies the different NPC's prefer.

Sten is a good example. In DA:O you learn through playing the game that he like his dialogues short and to the point. If this was in DA2, after a little while you don't even have to read the different options presented, - not
that you can anyway, since they are paraphrased - you can simply just keep clicking on the icon you know Sten prefers.

This is, IMO, made worse by the paraphrasing - it certainly was bad in ME/ME2 - which prevents you from even choosing a reply, rather you just have to settle for an intent. If the system was used in DA:O, any dialogue with Sten would simply be done through clicking the "short and to the point" icon, and there would be no point in NOT doing so, as you cannot read the replies anyway, but have to wait and hope that the actor deliever a line that's actually what you want it to be. This makes for a dull third person experience, rather than an immersive first-person experience.
 
In other words, roleplay goes out the window, and you are instead spoon-fed an interactive movie.

Modifié par TMZuk, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

TMZuk wrote...
This makes for a dull third person experience, rather than an immersive first-person experience.
 
In other words, roleplay goes out the window, and you are instead spoon-fed an interactive movie.

This makes for an immersive third person experience, rather than a pretend first-person experience that is actually a poorly implemented third person experience.

In other words, illusion of choice supported by your imagination goes out the window, and you are instead given options  that actually matter in the game as opposed to ones that only matter in your head.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[TMZuk]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
This makes for a dull third person experience, rather than an immersive first-person experience.
 
In other words, roleplay goes out the window, and you are instead spoon-fed an interactive movie.

This makes for an immersive third person experience, rather than a pretend first-person experience that is actually a poorly implemented third person experience.

In other words, illusion of choice supported by your imagination goes out the window, and you are instead given options  that actually matter in the game.

That's your opinion. I disagree completely.

[upsettingshorts]

TMZuk wrote...

That's your opinion. I disagree completely.

That is the crux of my response to you, yes.

...however on a slightly related issue, I would like to hear an answer from Mr. Gaider - or anyone from Bioware - as to the status of coercion/persuation mechanics in DA:2.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Ziggeh]

TMZuk wrote...
I am not specificly trying to gain x amount of reputation-points or experience when choosing my reply, or unlocking a specific quest.. Rather I am trying as hard as I can to simply choose the line I feel is the most in character.

Surely that's your decision? Your character wouldn't be thinking about anything statistical, so why would that enter into the roleplaying? I understand that choosing in character might lead to less than ideal conclusions than it might if your were to choose for progression purposes alone, but surely that's half the point?

[David Gaider]

TMZuk wrote...
Sten is a good example. In DA:O you learn through playing the game that he like his dialogues short and to the point. If this was in DA2, after a little while you don't even have to read the different options presented, - not
that you can anyway, since they are paraphrased - you can simply just keep clicking on the icon you know Sten prefers.

That's quite the assumption on your part. I don't know of a single companion in DA2 that responds consistently to the tone selected, as opposed to the sentiment expressed-- and more often than not they respond to action choices and not tone choices at all.

But I guess you're free to assume otherwise? It's generally best to assume the worst-case scenario is true and then scoff at the system for something you only imagine it does, yes?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
There's no single "persuade" option. What you have is the occasional special Diplomacy, Charm or Intimidate option in dialogue that's dependent on your dominant tone. And these will have an icon to single them out, yes.

So does that mean that all stat based dialogue options like cunning, persuade, intimidate are kaput? And replaced by the de factor paragon/renegade  diplomatic/sarcastic/aggressive choices that accumulate as your dominant personality accumulates?

No stat based dialogue checks beyond just the dominant personality thing sounds weak.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[druplesnubb]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Collider wrote...

Some people don't have the greatest grasp on the implications of some statements, or can't intuitively discern the hidden meaning behind them. Or read the writer's minds.

Of course, these are good things, and they are undone by the intent icons.

Wait, are you saying it is a good thing to accidentally make your character say the wrong things? You seem to always
having argued for giving people as much control over their characters as possible.

[nightcobra]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
There's no single "persuade" option. What you have is the occasional special Diplomacy, Charm or Intimidate option in dialogue that's dependent on your dominant tone. And these will have an icon to single them out, yes.

So does that mean that all stat based dialogue options like cunning, persuade, intimidate are kaput? And replaced by the de factor paragon/renegade  diplomatic/sarcastic/aggressive choices that accumulate as your dominant personality accumulates?

No stat based dialogue checks beyond just the dominant personality thing sounds weak.

since apparently there are a lot of different tone icons i wouldn't go too far as to state that there won't be more stat based dialog choices just yet.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

*is happy*



I liked persuade and such but in the end, it was just a dump stat / ability that I pretty much gathered as quickly as possible. I'm not sad it's gone, so I'm glad to hear it. Though I'm curious if the special dialogue options have a chance to fail. Mm...

[Brockololly]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
since apparently there are a lot of different tone icons i wouldn't go too far as to state that there won't be more stat based dialog choices just yet.

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Losing the stat based dialogue sucks after being able to play something like New Vegas where you have a plethora of RP opportunities based on how you build your character outside of just combat skills. I mean who doesn't love low intelligence stupid dialogue options?

Taking away those sorts of non combat abilities just makes the whole thing more of an interactive movie and less interesting RP wise I think.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Except David Gaider just got done talking about how there are more than that.

[nightcobra]

Brockololly wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
since apparently there are a lot of different tone icons i wouldn't go too far as to state that there won't be more stat based dialog choices just yet.

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

David Gaider wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
There's at least an "aggressive" icon too according to screenshots -- I don't think it necessarily means immediate violence, though I imagine it'll be attached if Bio decides to give you something like  " (Kill him)" as an option.

There's a separate icon for committing violence versus the aggressive dialogue tone. The icon gets rid of the necessity for the bracketed comments-- we done need things like [Attack] or [Lie] and so forth within the paraphrase, as the icon provides that instead.

And possibly a flirt icon, depending on whether Mary Kirby was being serious or just giving a hypothetical.

Quite serious. It's one of the most useful icons, in fact, right beside the Lie icon.

this seems to suggest that there's more than 3 though

[Ziggeh]

Brockololly wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
since apparently there are a lot of different tone icons i wouldn't go too far as to state that there won't be more stat based dialog choices just yet.

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Reading through Gaiders posts, seems theres quite a few, Diplomatic, Charming, Intimidating, Romantic, Agressive, Jocular, Lying. He mentioned colour coding too, so probably more.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In other words, illusion of choice supported by your imagination goes out the window, and you are instead given options  that actually matter in the game as opposed to ones that only matter in your head.

I'm not sure if there's any "instead" here -- the icons don't create anything that wasn't already there, they just clarify the writer's intent. But it can be argued that you were given the same set of "options that actually matter in the game" without the icons too (although the player could choose to make-believe these options were something other than they actually were)

[tmp7704]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

this seems to suggest that there's more than 3 though

There's more than three intent icons. This doesn't mean every intent has associated dominant personality, though. As far as these go if i recall right it's said there's indeed three of them -- aggressive, nice and sarcastic.

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Except David Gaider just got done talking about how there are more than that.

Oops, I didn't see that response.

Still, I'm pretty sure as far as dominant personality goes its limited to the 3 (aggressive, diplomatic, sarcastic).

And I can't imagine they'l have a ton of different icons though- they all have to fairly intuitive  and how much do you want to bet there will be people moaning about how they started a romance with Varric because they didn't know what the heart icon was?

"Oh come on man! I though that meant I was going to perform open heart surgery ! WTF! "
*slams down controller and storms off*

[nightcobra]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Except David Gaider just got done talking about how there are more than that.

Oops, I didn't see that response.

Still, I'm pretty sure as far as dominant personality goes its limited to the 3 (aggressive, diplomatic, sarcastic).

And I can't imagine they'l have a ton of different icons though- they all have to fairly intuitive  and how much do you want to bet there will be people moaning about how they started a romance with Varric because they didn't know what the heart icon was?

"Oh come on man! I though that meant I was going to perform open heart surgery ! WTF! "
*slams down controller and storms off*

idiots:devil: everyone knows the icon for that one is the cut-up heart with a scalpel on top of it.

[tmp7704]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

idiots:devil: everyone knows the icon for that one is the cut-up heart with a scalpel on top of it.

Ehh, that's actually icon for "opening up your heart to the cute elf healer"...

[druplesnubb]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm pretty sure its just the 3: angry fist for aggressive, drama/joker mask for sarcastic, and olive branch for diplomatic. Although there is likely a heart one for romantic I'd imagine.

Except David Gaider just got done talking about how there are more than that.

Oops, I didn't see that response.

Still, I'm pretty sure as far as dominant personality goes its limited to the 3 (aggressive, diplomatic, sarcastic).

And I can't imagine they'l have a ton of different icons though- they all have to fairly intuitive  and how much do you want to bet there will be people moaning about how they started a romance with Varric because they didn't know what the heart icon was?

"Oh come on man! I though that meant I was going to perform open heart surgery ! WTF! "
*slams down controller and storms off*

I agree that there probably wouldn't be that many dominant personalities but what makes you think there's only those three? just because we only saw those on that particular screenshot it doesn't mean there couldn't be a fourth or even a fifth personality. It's not like they are forced to have one of every kind all the time.

Modifié par druplesnubb, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:30 .