372 réponses à ce sujet

[Crimson Invictus]

Snoteye wrote...
Still only intent, it wouldn't change anything.

Some people need the help.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 05 décembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Snoteye]

I was in agreement before the edit.

[Wulfram]

Mary Kirby wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?

Quit murdering kittens. Jerk.

Could someone put a tone icon on this so I can tell if she's joking?

[Lasien]

scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?

I actually like the idea of the icons. When I played DA or ME, I was always guessing what the "feeling" of the line was supposed to be. Much less so in DA, but it was still annoying. When you chose the response that you thought was the "snarky but nice" line and the NPC reacted like you just punched them in the face, it got a little annoying. And that didnt' really have anything to do with the other character, just with a misinterpretation of the line.

[Nerivant]

Wulfram wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Quit murdering kittens. Jerk. <_<

Could someone put a tone icon on this so I can tell if she's joking?

There.

She wasn't joking.

[Crimson Invictus]

Snoteye wrote...

I was in agreement before the edit.

I can't be bothered with the inevitable soul that feels the need to tell me why they don't.

[Snoteye]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I can't be bothered with the inevitable soul that feels the need to tell me why they don't.

Not playing nice anymore?

[_Dejanus]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?

Regardless of icon, all you do is make fart jokes. Every time.

So, Fable then?

[Crimson Invictus]

Snoteye wrote...
Not playing nice anymore?

This is me playing nice.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 05 décembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm still wondering how it will all work in the game though, as a red angry fist or joker mask for sarcasm with only a limited paraphrase and no full text leaves you guessing as to the extent of how much "red angry fist" your response will actually be- is it screaming in someone's face or passive aggressively growling through clenched teeth? Does the "joker mask sarcasm" mean you'll make a subtle, witty dry humor remark or will you act all Oghren like and make a Jar Jar Binks level fart joke?

I just don't see it differently than trying to guess whether a reply in DA:O's silent text will actually be conveyed in a snarky manner or be played entirely straight. As a sarcastic person, there were lots of moments in DA:O were everyone just played everything absolutely straight in a way that suggested either everything was flying over the NPCs head, or there was something wrong with the delivery.

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

I just don't see it differently than trying to guess whether a reply in DA:O's silent text will actually be conveyed in a snarky manner or be played entirely straight. As a sarcastic person, there were lots of moments in DA:O were everyone just played everything absolutely straight in a way that suggested either everything was flying over the NPCs head, or there was something wrong with the delivery.

we all know the best kind of sacrastic/smarmy remark is the one that is delievered deadpanned and flies over the head of your victims so you can laugh inwards at their idiocy. 

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I want a different icon representing every emotional and contextual tone of the dialogue for Hawke, get to work interface designers, you have at least ten thousand icons to produce before the end of Febuary, chop-chop!

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...

we all know the best kind of sacrastic/smarmy remark is the one that is delievered deadpanned and flies over the head of your victims so you can laugh inwards at their idiocy. 

That only works when you get to see the deadpan delivery. In a game that hides 50% of the conversation, sarcasm has to get conveyed.

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...

we all know the best kind of sacrastic/smarmy remark is the one that is delievered deadpanned and flies over the head of your victims so you can laugh inwards at their idiocy. 

That only works when you get to see the deadpan delivery. In a game that hides 50% of the conversation, sarcasm has to get conveyed.

clearly my awesome, deadpanned delivery zoomed right over your head.  *feels superior about himself*

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote..

I just don't see it differently than trying to guess whether a reply in DA:O's silent text will actually be conveyed in a snarky manner or be played entirely straight. As a sarcastic person, there were lots of moments in DA:O were everyone just played everything absolutely straight in a way that suggested either everything was flying over the NPCs head, or there was something wrong with the delivery.

Effectively I get that its more or less the same as Origins, but I feel more in control and confident in the PC's response when I can read all of the other full text responses and judge for myself which is conveyng which type of emotion/delivery I'd want my PC to give.

To me, there is less ambiguity in being able to read all the full text responses and compare them to each other and then select which one works best. That way, if I read the saracastic text, the delivery was however I read it in my head for that PC and you just cut straight to the NPC reaction.

The issue I have with the icons/paraphrases is that say you select the joker mask icon and instead of a deadpan, dry humor sarcasm response, you hear Hawke say something in some more over the top jocular tone, which would then be compounded by the NPC responding to that jocular tone. While in Origins, you might still have the same NPC reaction, but you avoid that disconnect with your PC going rogue and saying something or saying something in a way you didn't intend- especially with not knowing the full extent of the other dialogue choices, which maybe one of the other icons/paraphrases actually would have worked better, but you don't know that since you're limited to the icons/paraphrases.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 décembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Effectively I get that its more or less the same as Origins, but I feel more in control and confident in the PC's response when I can read all of the other full text responses and judge for myself which is conveyng which type of emotion/delivery I'd want my PC to give.

The issue, to me, is how the NPC handles the line. We don't really ever have control of delivery because the NPC always reacts one way to any one (or two or three) partocularly line. So the specific respose, to me, is not really relevant.

To me, there is less ambiguity in being able to read all the full text responses and compare them to each other and then select which one works best. That way, if I read the saracastic text, the delivery was however I read it in my head for that PC and you just cut straight to the NPC reaction.

I just don't see it. There is tremendous ambiguity for me, because in either case I'm forced to predict how the game will interpret the line. With a tone indicator, I at least know ahead of time how it will be delivered, so I at least have some idea of how the NPCs might construe what I do and so actually have a chance to plan my actions.

Essentially, to me expression is only part of dialogue. The other part, because of the ways games are construct, is the actual outcome I want to cause in the world. And that requires that I can predict how the game will actually think I said something.

The issue I have with the icons/paraphrases is that say you select the joker mask icon and instead of a deadpan, dry humor sarcasm response, you hear Hawke say something in some more over the top jocular tone, which would then be compounded by the NPC responding to that jocular tone. 

But the NPC responds the same way regardless of what interface the player has. It's always a fixed response that triggers based on what the writers set out to show.

While in Origins, you might still have the same NPC reaction, but you avoid that disconnect with your PC going rogue and saying something or saying something in a way you didn't intend- especially with not knowing the full extent of the other dialogue choices.

The PC goes rogue insofar as the game things the PC said something different than wanted I said. If I try to be sarcastic and the game tells me I was serious, that is a problem. It doesn't matter whether the game visually shows the breakdown, it doesn't change the fact the breakdown was there.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 décembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...

clearly my awesome, deadpanned delivery zoomed right over your head.  *feels superior about himself*

Guess that proves the superiority of literal content over tone?

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...

clearly my awesome, deadpanned delivery zoomed right over your head.  *feels superior about himself*

Guess that proves the superiority of literal content over tone?

Was just messing around.  I look at the tone indicators as Susan exclaimed in suprise, Bill remarked scathingly, etc in books.  And I do agree with you, sarcastic/snarky/cocky comments in DAO were done poorly and caused a few mix-ups for me.  With the new he said sarcastically indicators it will hopefully fix this problems somewhat.  Though I do hope there are momments where you deliver your sarcastic comment in a deadpanned manner at it flies over the head of the person you are talking to.  I'd be amused.

Modifié par Piecake, 05 décembre 2010 - 09:41 .

[Snoteye]

scyphozoa wrote...

The english language is complex enough to allow for anything to be clearly articulated.

The English language is so complex it needs to borrow from half a dozen other languages to even function right.

[Ziggeh]

scyphozoa wrote...

No, it doesn't. The english language is complex enough to allow for anything to be clearly articulated.

The english language is complex enough to be consistently ambigious. It's both its strength and weakness.

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...
Was just messing around.

I figured. Did want to hammer home the point, though.

I look at the tone indicators as Susan exclaimed in suprise, Bill remarked scathingly, etc in books.  And I do agree with you, sarcastic/snarky/cocky comments in DAO were done poorly and caused a few mix-ups for me.

I have always been a fan of tone indicators, independent from VO. I think even full-text silent PC games should have [Sacarcasm], [Supportive] etc. tags.

With the new he said sarcastically indicators it will hopefully fix this problems somewhat.  Though I do hope there are momments where you deliver your sarcastic comment in a deadpanned manner at it flies over the head of the person you are talking to.  I'd be amused.

I can only hope that people absolutely miss the joke at a few junctures. It's what makes sarcasm worthwhile. It's just important IMO for the game to acknowledge it.

[Piecake]

scyphozoa wrote...

Nerivant wrote...
This directly contradicts itself.

No, it doesn't. The english language is complex enough to allow for anything to be clearly articulated.

Of course, but DA2 isnt an essay/thesis/dissertation, its dialogue.  That's a massive difference

[fchopin]

Mary Kirby wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

I feel like the english language is plenty complex enough to make textual cues clear. Why do we need icons? And can we toggle them off if we are literate?

Quit murdering kittens. Jerk.

I would also like the option to turn them off, i don't like to be treated like a 2 year old.

[upsettingshorts]

So when you read books, do you first go through with a magic marker and obscure any descriptions of how a character said something as insults to your intelligence?

Because you know, the icons are the same damn thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm explaining this concept as if I am talking to two-year olds.  There is no difference between an "anger icon" and the words "he angrily demanded" or some other phrase.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:16 .