372 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Illborne wrote...

Is the presence of an icon somehow offensive?

I've been asking for this to be explained for about a page now, I'm expecting the question will be dodged again.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[KhorinShizucor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Illborne wrote...

Is the presence of an icon somehow offensive?

I've been asking for this to be explained for about a page now, I'm expecting the question will be dodged again.

Well, someone has already mentioned that it's dumbing down the dialog. Although, I don't see what 2 year olds have to do with the icons. Are 2 year olds capable of making relationships between an image and words yet?

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've been asking for this to be explained for about a page now, I'm expecting the question will be dodged again.

Were it an objection like Sylvius's, I would understand. He believes that determinate states in games are bad, so he would say we shouldn't have tone indicators so we can pretend the dialogue was delivered in an infinite number of different ways. That's a coherent and defensible position.

I do not understand how the tone indicator could possibly insult someone's intelligence, though.

[fchopin]

Have fun guys, i am not here for a discussion i am making a request to Bioware, if Bioware does not wish to implement my suggestions that is fine.

[NvVanity]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Illborne wrote...

Is the presence of an icon somehow offensive?

I've been asking for this to be explained for about a page now, I'm expecting the question will be dodged again.

Well like maybe someone has a fear of "red fist" icons or something. Or somehow it ruins immersion because you know it totally takes away from being in a game world far more then reading text and having a menu to put stuff on your guy.

[KhorinShizucor]

fchopin wrote...

Have fun guys, i am not here for a discussion i am making a request to Bioware, if Bioware does not wish to implement my suggestions that is fine.

So you'd still play the game?

[Dave of Canada]

Funny thing about this forum, toggles can do everything including solve world hunger. It's also very simple too!

[upsettingshorts]

scyphozoa wrote...

That would be terrible, so likening graphical cues to a linguistic cue does not draw a parallel.

It does when they won't be used universally in the game either.  There will be options along the wheel in which no such icons will appear.  The intent is the same.  Given that there is no Paragon/Renegade divide in Dragon Age 2 I doubt simply assigning a certain quadrant to a some binary distinction between mean and nice would work.  In that sense, the tone icons are more dynamic, though of course they still aren't on the same descriptive level of the written word.

But that wasn't the point.  The point is the intent is the same, to convey the tone of the delivered line.

fchopin wrote...

Have fun guys, i am not here for a discussion i am making a request to Bioware, if Bioware does not wish to implement my suggestions that is fine.

If you can't elaborate on your request by even explaining your position, let alone why anyone should care, why should they?  What a strange position.

In Exile wrote...

Were it an objection like Sylvius's, I would understand. He believes that determinate states in games are bad, so he would say we shouldn't have tone indicators so we can pretend the dialogue was delivered in an infinite number of different ways. That's a coherent and defensible position.

I do not understand how the tone indicator could possibly insult someone's intelligence, though.

Oh I would get Sylvius' position.  I don't tend to attack his arguments in quite the same way, however.

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Well, someone has already mentioned that it's dumbing down the dialog.

No it isn't.  It's basically a move from an implicitly first or third person narrative to an explicitly third person narrative.  There's nothing inherently "dumb" about the latter.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Piecake]

I think his main issue is that he seems to think that a word is inherently superior to representing ideas/concepts than an icon, which is pretty foolish since the value of the word is not in how it looks, but the ideas/concept, etc that it represents. An icon can do that just as well.

[Atakuma]

fchopin wrote...

Have fun guys, i am not here for a discussion i am making a request to Bioware, if Bioware does not wish to implement my suggestions that is fine.

Have a nice day.

[ErichHartmann]

I thought the blue and red text in Mass Effect for Paragon and Renegade was unnecessary. I had no real issues figuring out intent/tone or whatever you want to call it. I don't really care either way but toggles should be a part of RPGs to allow wider "playstyle" options. /rambling

[fchopin]

KhorinShizucor wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Have fun guys, i am not here for a discussion i am making a request to Bioware, if Bioware does not wish to implement my suggestions that is fine.

So you'd still play the game?

That is up to me, have not decided yet.

[Dave of Canada]

scyphozoa wrote...

The ME dialog wheel rubric is pretty straight forward, up is good, down is bad. I was never surprised to hear an aggressive response from Shep when I chose a down option, or a compassionate response when I chose an up option.

My problem with this is that it essentially locks down Shepard to be four personalities, compassionate / ruthless / that-middle-guy and schizo. At least with this system, you can still be aggressive / compassionate / the-middle-guy and such but you have a personality behind it. Hawke is who you make him (or her) out to be, instead of labeling one of the above on your character.

[HopHazzard]

scyphozoa wrote...

I find the icon to be an overcorrection. The paraphrasing in ME1 and ME2 was not such a significant flaw that it required the use of graphical cues. I personally have never been confused or frustrated by the paraphrase system in ME1 or 2. The ME dialog wheel rubric is pretty straight forward, up is good, down is bad. I was never surprised to hear an aggressive response from Shep when I chose a down option, or a compassionate response when I chose an up option.

Simply put, I think there was a small problem with the paraphrasing, but I think it could and should have been fixed on the level of text, spoken word and cinematics. Those should be subtle cues that indicate the tone of the context. I am afraid these icons are going to be overt and tacky.

Lastly, unlike the meticulously crafted "he said/she said" clauses that writers will tailor to every sentence, the graphical icons will be static. This is a great example of how much more the written and spoken word can convey than graphical cues. I would never read a book where the same "He said/she said" clause was the same 4-5 clauses for the whole book. That would be terrible, so likening graphical cues to a linguistic cue does not draw a parallel.

I think they're trying to make it more complex than up is good, down is bad.  And even with that system in ME, you couldn't always be sure what you'd get from the paraphrase. Sometimes down was snarky, sometimes it was plain rude, and sometimes it was psycho aggressive, while the up option was pretty consistently polite. In this case they seem to be attempting to add complexity and increase clarity at the same time. For my part, I think I'll actually have to play it before I decide how I feel about it.

[upsettingshorts]

HopHazzard wrote...
 And even with that system in ME, you couldn't always be sure what you'd get from the paraphrase. Sometimes down was snarky, sometimes it was plain rude, and sometimes it was psycho aggressive, while the up option was pretty consistently polite.

I'd argue that this is due to the fact Mass Effect 1-2's writers haven't figured out who Renegade Shepard is even supposed to be.  And if he's supposed to be a variety of people, then we shouldn't be more or less locked in to playing schizophrenic Shepard if we want to unlock Renegade options down the road, and ME2 demands we do this.  Not really a problem with the paraphrase or wheel system itself.

But that's for a different forum.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Illborne wrote...

Is the presence of an icon somehow offensive?

I've been asking for this to be explained for about a page now, I'm expecting the question will be dodged again.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's offensive, but I'd just as soon not have it.  I've already tried to explain elsewhere that it feels like kindergarten flash cards, but that puts people's nozzles in a twist because you interpret it to mean I'm calling you dumb.  And, even if I took the trouble to explain, it's like it will change anything anyway.

I had wondered, also, if we were still going to have NPCs reacting in unpredictable ways.  I'm glad to see that the intent for that is there.

[In Exile]

scyphozoa wrote...

I find the icon to be an overcorrection. The paraphrasing in ME1 and ME2 was not such a significant flaw that it required the use of graphical cues. I personally have never been confused or frustrated by the paraphrase system in ME1 or 2. The ME dialog wheel rubric is pretty straight forward, up is good, down is bad. I was never surprised to hear an aggressive response from Shep when I chose a down option, or a compassionate response when I chose an up option.

That's because in ME, paragon/renegade were our personality subtypes. If you picked the paragon option, you could expect how Shepard would behave, so you could customize your response that way. DA2 has no comparable system, so we need some other cue about what Hawke will do.

Simply put, I think there was a small problem with the paraphrasing, but I think it could and should have been fixed on the level of text, spoken word and cinematics. Those should be subtle cues that indicate the tone of the context. I am afraid these icons are going to be overt and tacky.

Which subtle cues? It's easy to say these things ought to tip off the player, but how would that work specifically?

Lastly, unlike the meticulously crafted "he said/she said" clauses that writers will tailor to every sentence, the graphical icons will be static. This is a great example of how much more the written and spoken word can convey than graphical cues. I would never read a book where the same "He said/she said" clause was the same 4-5 clauses for the whole book. That would be terrible, so likening graphical cues to a linguistic cue does not draw a parallel.

But the "he said/she said" clause contains the same information. The author varies it stylistic reasons, generally not because there is extra information in some other paraphrase.

When you or I speak, we know how we're going to say something. A game doesn't have the same luxury, so there needs to be a shorthand what of knowing what the player will do.

[HopHazzard]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I thought the blue and red text in Mass Effect for Paragon and Renegade was unnecessary. I had no real issues figuring out intent/tone or whatever you want to call it. I don't really care either way but toggles should be a part of RPGs to allow wider "playstyle" options. /rambling

They weren't colored to signal intent. They colored so you would know you'd sufficiently built your character to point where those extra options became available.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's offensive, but I'd just as soon not have it.  I've already tried to explain elsewhere that it feels like kindergarten flash cards, but that puts people's nozzles in a twist because you interpret it to mean I'm calling you dumb.  And, even if I took the trouble to explain, it's like it will change anything anyway.

I had wondered, also, if we were still going to have NPCs reacting in unpredictable ways.  I'm glad to see that the intent for that is there.

I feel the same way. I just don' like it aesthetically at all. I rather it be in wording than a picture.

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

I had wondered, also, if we were still going to have NPCs reacting in unpredictable ways.  I'm glad to see that the intent for that is there.

Mary Kirby wrote...

This. Yes. The icon tells you what tone you are selecting.
They are, "I am going to say something psychotic," or "I am going to be
a smartarse." Not, "This is the option the NPC will like." NPCs are
just as likely to hate your jokes or your interpret your attempts to be
nice as butt-kissing.

that should answer your question

[unspoken_demise]

shepard_lives wrote...

fchopin wrote...

But having the option to turn icons off does not change your game.

Gaider should do it any second now... there, /kitten.

Anyhow, of course that wouldn't disturb me. It's your thought that these icons indisputably make the game dumber that disturbs me.

Even so, though the simple act of giving it a toggle isn't objectionable in itself, the rationale behind any call for the developers to do so is not premised on anything concrete or possess a sound argument.

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game, and *how* that is necessarily so. If anything, I tend to view it in the opposite direction. The developers are equipping me with more information about vocal tone which allows me to make a better decision based on how I want my character to react. And, at least to me, giving me more *tools* in order to allow me to more accurately reach a decision is not an insult.

"I need a toggle because the icons are horrifying! They make me sick!"
<3 "Man, I really like these icons. They're a huge benefit to the game and my well-being! Hail the Gaider!"
"I'm woefully indifferent to this. Let's talk about romances."
"I just cannot believe they would insult my intelligence in this fashion."

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It does when they won't be used universally in the game either.  There will be options along the wheel in which no such icons will appear. 

So why have them at all?

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's offensive, but I'd just as soon not have it.  I've already tried to explain elsewhere that it feels like kindergarten flash cards, but that puts people's nozzles in a twist because you interpret it to mean I'm calling you dumb.  And, even if I took the trouble to explain, it's like it will change anything anyway.

I don't see that argument as calling me dumb, but that pictures are inherently "dumber" than equally easy to understand words.  They're both just symbols.  Would [Angrily] after the paraphrase be less irritating than [red fist icon]?  I honestly can't see how there's a difference.

That being said, I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but it would be nice to understand where some folk are coming from.

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It does when they won't be used universally in the game either.  There will be options along the wheel in which no such icons will appear. 

So why have them at all?

For the options where the icons would be appropriate?  I thought that'd be the understood implication.  I was responding to the idea that they can't cover every nuance of the spoken word they way written linguistic cues can.  But that's not really the issue at hand.

Bioware has come up with a few, and supported them to the extent that they are integrated into the game through Hawke's dialogue that the player wouldn't otherwise be able to control. 

Ryzaki wrote...

I feel the same way. I just don' like it aesthetically at all. I rather it be in wording than a picture.

And if that's all there is, I can but shrug and say, "Okay."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 10:58 .