372 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It does when they won't be used universally in the game either.  There will be options along the wheel in which no such icons will appear. 

So why have them at all?

so we can be awesomely deadpanned sarcastic

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's offensive, but I'd just as soon not have it.  I've already tried to explain elsewhere that it feels like kindergarten flash cards, but that puts people's nozzles in a twist because you interpret it to mean I'm calling you dumb.  And, even if I took the trouble to explain, it's like it will change anything anyway.

Why? The writers need some way to convey how a line will be delivered; otherwise we wind up with the DA:O system where we think we're saying something one way and the game pretends it was delivered another way. Then our only option is to assume NPCs are stupid (when you're one of the most silver-tongued , charismatic people alive the only comprehensible reason for someone to consistently misunderstand you is a mental defficiency) or we're saying things wrong.

[HopHazzard]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It does when they won't be used universally in the game either.  There will be options along the wheel in which no such icons will appear. 

So why have them at all?

I believe the lack of an icon will indicate a neutral tone.

[upsettingshorts]

scyphozoa wrote...
Oh I want to answer this. Yes, based on the footage/screenshots I've seen of the dialog icon (I've seen the fist) I think it looks tacky and overt.

I can understand aesthetic arguments.  Where I take issue is with the idea that their presence is insulting to the user's intelligence.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's offensive, but I'd just as soon not have it.  I've already tried to explain elsewhere that it feels like kindergarten flash cards, but that puts people's nozzles in a twist because you interpret it to mean I'm calling you dumb.  And, even if I took the trouble to explain, it's like it will change anything anyway.

Why? The writers need some way to convey how a line will be delivered; otherwise we wind up with the DA:O system where we think we're saying something one way and the game pretends it was delivered another way. Then our only option is to assume NPCs are stupid (when you're one of the most silver-tongued , charismatic people alive the only comprehensible reason for someone to consistently misunderstand you is a mental defficiency) or we're saying things wrong.

When you exaggerate the supposed problems with DAO's system- I suspect intentionally to try to prove your point- then sure, it sounds like a solution to an actual problem.

If you look at how it actually was to play DAO, however, the only times where NPCs took things differently than I intended could have been chalked up to the sort of misunderstandings that happen in everyday life.  The sort of misunderstandings I assume are still possible in the new system, since as we've heard in this thread, the icons are not an indicator of how the NPC will react.

The only problem is the one created by having the voiced protagonist at all, which means you need to paraphrase, which means you need to compensate somehow for having to truncate the dialogue choices.  I would just prefer to have stuck to the old system which worked fine as far as I'm concerned.  But, I would also prefer to be independently wealthy and live in a fabulous chalet in the mountains.

[unspoken_demise]

scyphozoa wrote...

Oh I want to answer this. Yes, based on the footage/screenshots I've seen of the dialog icon (I've seen the fist) I think it looks tacky and overt. I also have asked for toggles for UI. I am a minimalist by nature and I want to be able to clear my screen of layers and icons I deem needless. I don't want to look out on an epic vista of blightlands and have my screen cluttered with UIs (something I really dislike about many games, ME and DAO included) and I don't want to have my dialog interaction and cinematics cluttered with what I consider tacky and juvenile looking icons.

Its a matter of opinion, but to answer your question, yes, based on what I've seen, I consider the icons offensive and a detriment to my experience. /toggle off

This is a perfectly reasonable opinion...

[fchopin]

unspoken_demise wrote...

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game,.

I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

[unspoken_demise]

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game,.

I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

What was your implication with the 2-year old comment?

[Apollo Starflare]

I think that at this point there is literally nothing that hasn't been complained about to some degree.



I really just don't care about the icons. They are there, small and mostly out of the way on the dialogue wheel (and the dialogue area has always been an eyesore in terms of minimalism) and they do their job for players less experienced with the system or who knows for moments in the game where it isn't clear - we don't know if it'll be exactly like ME's style throughout considering DA doesn't have a paragon/renegade system. Sure a toggle would be nice for those who are that pedantic about it, but I'm kind of amazed it bothers anyone that much.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

When you exaggerate the supposed problems with DAO's system- I suspect intentionally to try to prove your point- then sure, it sounds like a solution to an actual problem.

I don't think it's any more of an agenda-driven exaggeration than calling the tone icons kindergarten flash cards.  Snark aside, I've noticed a lot of this - people who had an uneven experience with Mass Effect's paraphrase system will call it broken and nonsensical, but when pressed will come up with a few examples of where the dialogue wheel failed them in their expectations entirely.  Then, those who noticed inconsistencies with the intent or tone of a selected line of dialogue in Dragon Age: Origin won't really do much better or worse than their opposite numbers in the example above. 

So some exaggerations are probably intentional.  I'd say most though are just honest impressions based on what they can remember - the failures - as opposed to what they've forgotten - most of it.

Addai67 wrote...

If you look at how it actually was to play DAO, however, the only times where NPCs took things differently than I intended could have been chalked up to the sort of misunderstandings that happen in everyday life.  The sort of misunderstandings I assume are still possible in the new system, since as we've heard in this thread, the icons are not an indicator of how the NPC will react.

The sort that, in everyday life, you could immediately correct.  DA:O doesn't allow this, therefore the system is flawed. Well, to players who care more about the intended consequence of their choice being reflected in the game that is.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

When you exaggerate the supposed problems with DAO's system- I suspect intentionally to try to prove your point- then sure, it sounds like a solution to an actual problem.

Except I don't exaggerate the problem at all. Yes, you might not have had major problems with silent VO, but I did. However the game assumed that the line was supposed to be said, it was just not commesurate with how I would assume it was delivered, i.e. generally snarky or otherwise sarcastic. This was particularly the case with things that could be said aggresively, which I tend to say in a snarky manner but in the game are always aggresive.

If you look at how it actually was to play DAO, however, the only times where NPCs took things differently than I intended could have been chalked up to the sort of misunderstandings that happen in everyday life.  

No, they can't be. For one, in real life we can actually correct these misunderstandings. Also, my character is a brilliant silver-tongued charmer. I can quite literally sell an umbrella on a sunny day. To be misunderstood so often is just incommesurate with the character concept.

But like I said: the problem with the "misunderstanding" reply is that the game does not ever acknowledge a misunderstanding. If I say something I think is a joke to Alistair and he plays it straight, there is no "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way" option.

The sort of misunderstandings I assume are still possible in the new system, since as we've heard in this thread, the icons are not an indicator of how the NPC will react.

I don't think NPCs misunderstand you. You might not get the desired reaction, but that's not the same thing as them acting as if you had said something entirely different from what you intended, which is what a misunderstanding is.

The only problem is the one created by having the voiced protagonist at all, which means you need to paraphrase, which means you need to compensate somehow for having to truncate the dialogue choices.  I would just prefer to have stuck to the old system which worked fine as far as I'm concerned.  But, I would also prefer to be independently wealthy and live in a fabulous chalet in the mountains.

This is where we get into the problem. The paraphrase is not the issue; the inability to predict outcomes is the issue. This isn't any more or less of a problem with a paraphrase, but I tend to have an easier time of it with the dialogue wheel because the wheel itself generally lets you know the broad effect your dialogue choice will have.

[Mary Kirby]

fchopin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So when you read books, do you first go through with a magic marker and obscure any descriptions of how a character said something as insults to your intelligence?

Because you know, the icons are the same damn thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm explaining this concept as if I am talking to two-year olds.  There is no difference between an "anger icon" and the words "he angrily demanded" or some other phrase.

I don't need a silly icon to tell me that by selecting option one it would be a romance option, if i can not tell from the text then the developers have made a mistake.

This is why, in ME2, you have flirt lines with paraphrases like, "I want you, Thane." Even though what Shepard says does not in any way sound that ridiculously blatant. Because the 30 characters of paraphrase have to convey without a doubt that you are going to initiate a romance. Frankly, I would rather have a little flirt icon and a paraphrase that says, "I'm here for you." Closer to what I'm actually going to say, and it doesn't make me cringe to select it. I don't think that's dumbed down, I think that's just plain better. But your mileage may vary.

[HopHazzard]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I think that at this point there is literally nothing that hasn't been complained about to some degree.

And if they didn't have the intent icons, we'd just have a different set of people complaining about the inadequacies of the paraphrase system in signalling intent. In fact, more than one person would probably have suggested the inclusion of intent icons and toggles for people who don't like the idea.

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

When you exaggerate the supposed problems with DAO's system- I suspect intentionally to try to prove your point- then sure, it sounds like a solution to an actual problem.

If you look at how it actually was to play DAO, however, the only times where NPCs took things differently than I intended could have been chalked up to the sort of misunderstandings that happen in everyday life.  The sort of misunderstandings I assume are still possible in the new system, since as we've heard in this thread, the icons are not an indicator of how the NPC will react.

The only problem is the one created by having the voiced protagonist at all, which means you need to paraphrase, which means you need to compensate somehow for having to truncate the dialogue choices.  I would just prefer to have stuck to the old system which worked fine as far as I'm concerned.  But, I would also prefer to be independently wealthy and live in a fabulous chalet in the mountains.

I think you are not fully understanding his point.  He, like myself, choice a few dialogue options thinking they would be sarcastic.  They were not.  You might not have thought they would be delivered in a sarcastic manner, but that is not the issue.  The issue is that sarcasm was done poorly, and without icons or indicators to tone, dialogue is limited, sarcasm being the most obvious limitation.  Indicators solves this issue

[Addai]

Piecake wrote...

I think you are not fully understanding his point.  He, like myself, choice a few dialogue options thinking they would be sarcastic.  They were not.  You might not have thought they would be delivered in a sarcastic manner, but that is not the issue.  The issue is that sarcasm was done poorly, and without icons or indicators to tone, dialogue is limited, sarcasm being the most obvious limitation.  Indicators solves this issue

No they don't.  You'll still have mismatches.  It's the nature of the beast.  Only now you'll have them not only in how the NPCs receive your words, but also in how the VA delivers them.

I would sacrifice a few kittens to get a toggle for protagonist VO...

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...

I think you are not fully understanding his point.  He, like myself, choice a few dialogue options thinking they would be sarcastic.  They were not.  You might not have thought they would be delivered in a sarcastic manner, but that is not the issue.  The issue is that sarcasm was done poorly, and without icons or indicators to tone, dialogue is limited, sarcasm being the most obvious limitation.  Indicators solves this issue

The thing is, I have the same problem on the forums. When I say something like, Alpha Protocol is a buggy mess and about as fun as a root cannal, I'm being 100% facetious. Except none of the stuff that would normally indicate I'm exaggerating carries over on the forum, so it always turns out that one person takes me literally and I have a three page debate on how Alpha Protocol is somewhat more buggy than DA:O based on what we can reasonably infer from general reception.

It's maddening to be a sarcastic person with silent VO, because most people just do not say things the same way.

[fchopin]

unspoken_demise wrote...

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game,.

I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

What was your implication with the 2-year old comment?

It signifies to me that either Bioware thinks that i am stupid and can not understand what the text says so i may choose a wrong selection and not like the result or that Bioware does not make the text self explanatory so icons are used to clarify what is missing in the text.
 
The reference for the 2 year old was for the first explanation.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Only now you'll have them not only in how the NPCs receive your words

Except in the case of an actual voice actor for the protagonist, we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he or she was misunderstood and be confident of that being the writer's intent.  With a silent protagonist, we must assume they were, despite the fact the game gives no feedback of the sort.

Addai67 wrote...

but also in how the VA delivers them.

As in, "He wasn't angry enough?" or "I didn't expect him to be that sarcastic?"  I'm not sure I follow in this case, though I would if we were talking about Mass Effect.

Addai67 wrote...

I would sacrifice a few kittens to get a toggle for protagonist VO...

You mean to make the protagonist silent?  Well, I think that's a 1st vs. 3rd person narrative preference thing when it boils down to it.

fchopin wrote...

It signifies to me that either Bioware thinks that i am stupid.

Maybe they're on to something.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Apollo Starflare]

HopHazzard wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I think that at this point there is literally nothing that hasn't been complained about to some degree.

And if they didn't have the intent icons, we'd just have a different set of people complaining about the inadequacies of the paraphrase system in signalling intent. In fact, more than one person would probably have suggested the inclusion of intent icons and toggles for people who don't like the idea.

Bullseye. In fact we have had those complaints, ever since ME was released and the dialogue wheel appeared. The DA team tries something new? They are now insulting the inteligence of their playerbase. Even though the playerbase hasn't actually had a chance to try the new system and see if the icons have an effect on the paraphrase system, making it possible to have better paraphrases for instance (or in other words: What Mary said).

[AlanC9]

But you don't consider that dumbing down, fchopin?

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:33 .

[upsettingshorts]

AlanC9 wrote...

But you don't consider that dumbing down?

To what are you referring?

[Brockololly]

Or BioWare could take a cue from Deus Ex: Human Revolution and yes, include the full text response when you highlight the paraphrase! Those that want quick paraphrases are happy and those that want to read the whole context of the responses are happy!

[fchopin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

fchopin wrote...

It signifies to me that either Bioware thinks that i am stupid.

Maybe they're on to something.

Thank you for the compliment, i have to say i am not surprised.

[unspoken_demise]

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game,.

I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

What was your implication with the 2-year old comment?

It signifies to me that either Bioware thinks that i am stupid and can not understand what the text says so i may choose a wrong selection and not like the result or that Bioware does not make the text self explanatory so icons are used to clarify what is missing in the text.
 
The reference for the 2 year old was for the first explanation.

Of course, there will be *some* issues that everyone's going to have with the dialogue system for different reasons, in different cases.

Nevertheless, it's a fact that intelligent people, even after reading through the text, made mistakes about how the character allegedly delivered the message. Of course in a non-protagonist VO game, we're judging that necessarily based on how an NPC reacted, so not *all* of it can reasonably be attributed to the PC.

With the self-explanatory text issue, there are conceivably cases in which writers are creating something unnecessarily convoluted to ensure a self-explanatory nature. As (I think) UpsettingShorts stated, we're looking at a similar idea, conceptually, to how books manage it. "Alistair stated sheepishly..."

In effect, Bioware is marrying message with intent, which is a step forward.