372 réponses à ce sujet

[Apollo Starflare]

Brockololly wrote...

Or BioWare could take a cue from Deus Ex: Human Revolution and yes, include the full text response when you highlight the paraphrase! Those that want quick paraphrases are happy and those that want to read the whole context of the responses are happy!

I think that sounds like a great idea, looking forward to seeing it in action. I also think the icon system has potential however, I'm hardly going to write it off if it could mean we don't get awful paraphrases like the one Mary mentioned above.

[upsettingshorts]

Brockololly wrote...

Or BioWare could take a cue from Deus Ex: Human Revolution and yes, include the full text response when you highlight the paraphrase! Those that want quick paraphrases are happy and those that want to read the whole context of the responses are happy!

I'm on the fence on that, conceptually.  I have to see it working.  Will I be able to ignore the full line?  Will I want to?  I'm not sure if I'll like it.  There's a very good chance I'll play that game, so maybe it will change my mind, maybe it won't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:33 .

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

Piecake wrote...

I think you are not fully understanding his point.  He, like myself, choice a few dialogue options thinking they would be sarcastic.  They were not.  You might not have thought they would be delivered in a sarcastic manner, but that is not the issue.  The issue is that sarcasm was done poorly, and without icons or indicators to tone, dialogue is limited, sarcasm being the most obvious limitation.  Indicators solves this issue

No they don't.  You'll still have mismatches.  It's the nature of the beast.  Only now you'll have them not only in how the NPCs receive your words, but also in how the VA delivers them.

I would sacrifice a few kittens to get a toggle for protagonist VO...

I am perectcly fine with NPCs misunderstanding my sarcasm.  In fact, I hope they do since I will find comfort and superiority in the knowledge that my sarcasm was so awesome to escape detection.  What I have a problem with is wanting to say something sarcastic and then that phrase essentially not being sarcastic due to the npcs reaction since there was no indicator of tone or VA.  I'm a bit confused on your VA delivery point.

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But you don't consider that dumbing down?

To what are you referring?

See edit. That's what I get for reading two threads at once.

[fchopin]

unspoken_demise wrote...

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

fchopin wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

@fchopin, I'm curious what specifically constitutes a dumbing down of the game,.

I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

What was your implication with the 2-year old comment?

It signifies to me that either Bioware thinks that i am stupid and can not understand what the text says so i may choose a wrong selection and not like the result or that Bioware does not make the text self explanatory so icons are used to clarify what is missing in the text.
 
The reference for the 2 year old was for the first explanation.

Of course, there will be *some* issues that everyone's going to have with the dialogue system for different reasons, in different cases.

Nevertheless, it's a fact that intelligent people, even after reading through the text, made mistakes about how the character allegedly delivered the message. Of course in a non-protagonist VO game, we're judging that necessarily based on how an NPC reacted, so not *all* of it can reasonably be attributed to the PC.

With the self-explanatory text issue, there are conceivably cases in which writers are creating something unnecessarily convoluted to ensure a self-explanatory nature. As (I think) UpsettingShorts stated, we're looking at a similar idea, conceptually, to how books manage it. "Alistair stated sheepishly..."

In effect, Bioware is marrying message with intent, which is a step forward.

And what is wrong with having the option to turn off icons? It does not change the game for anyone who likes to use them.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Only now you'll have them not only in how the NPCs receive your words

Except in the case of an actual voice actor for the protagonist, we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he or she was misunderstood and be confident of that being the writer's intent.  With a silent protagonist, we must assume they were, despite the fact the game gives no feedback of the sort.

Addai67 wrote...

but also in how the VA delivers them.

As in, "He wasn't angry enough?" or "I didn't expect him to be that sarcastic?"  I'm not sure I follow in this case, though I would if we were talking about Mass Effect.

I mean I would rather conclude that an NPC is a moron than have a VO delivering lines in a manner that doesn't sound like I want my character to sound.  The former never bothered me in DAO- because I never encountered it and have to take your word that it happened to you and others- but the latter ruined Mass Effect for me and made me speed through Leliana's Song with a permanent grimace on my face.

[Dave of Canada]

I find reading the whole line, selecting it and then hearing it exactly the same a little redundant. Then you're just sitting there wondering why even have a voiced protagonist if the game is going to play exactly like it was without it.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Or BioWare could take a cue from Deus Ex: Human Revolution and yes, include the full text response when you highlight the paraphrase! Those that want quick paraphrases are happy and those that want to read the whole context of the responses are happy!

But it does nothing to help with intent. Yes, this solves the problem for those who need the full text, but when you have a subset of people complaining about how useless full text is, it doesn't really do much to help them.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I mean I would rather conclude that an NPC is a moron than have a VO delivering lines in a manner that doesn't sound like I want my character to sound.  The former never bothered me in DAO- because I never encountered it and have to take your word that it happened to you and others- but the latter ruined Mass Effect for me and made me speed through Leliana's Song with a permanent grimace on my face.

This breaks down right into personal preference. It breaks my experience to assume my entire party is mentally deficient, and essentially makes my first two playthroughs a test-run so I can at least understand how some of the options actually play out so I can RP them effectively.  Mass Effect had some pretty crazy on-rail moments too with the SHEP ANGRY!! moments, but intent is designed to avoid this.

[Addai]

Piecake wrote...
I am perectcly fine with NPCs misunderstanding my sarcasm.  In fact, I hope they do since I will find comfort and superiority in the knowledge that my sarcasm was so awesome to escape detection.  What I have a problem with is wanting to say something sarcastic and then that phrase essentially not being sarcastic due to the npcs reaction since there was no indicator of tone or VA.  I'm a bit confused on your VA delivery point.

Well, I'm confused.  If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?

In the new system, you will still have mismatches.  There's no way to convey any nuance in the paraphrase, so you won't know if he's going to deliver the line as lighthearted sarcastic or bitterly sarcastic (for instance).  So you can end up with a case where not only do the NPCs react differently than you expected, your PC is not acting as you'd want him to, either.  No system is perfect- it's in the nature of the thing.

[fchopin]

Mary Kirby wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So when you read books, do you first go through with a magic marker and obscure any descriptions of how a character said something as insults to your intelligence?

Because you know, the icons are the same damn thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm explaining this concept as if I am talking to two-year olds.  There is no difference between an "anger icon" and the words "he angrily demanded" or some other phrase.

I don't need a silly icon to tell me that by selecting option one it would be a romance option, if i can not tell from the text then the developers have made a mistake.

This is why, in ME2, you have flirt lines with paraphrases like, "I want you, Thane." Even though what Shepard says does not in any way sound that ridiculously blatant. Because the 30 characters of paraphrase have to convey without a doubt that you are going to initiate a romance. Frankly, I would rather have a little flirt icon and a paraphrase that says, "I'm here for you." Closer to what I'm actually going to say, and it doesn't make me cringe to select it. I don't think that's dumbed down, I think that's just plain better. But your mileage may vary.

I have no problem with people who wish to use the icons but what is wrong with having an option for people that do not need any guidance?
 
I have said nothing about dumping down the game.

[Brockololly]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
I think that sounds like a great idea, looking forward to seeing it in action. I also think the icon system has potential however, I'm hardly going to write it off if it could mean we don't get awful paraphrases like the one Mary mentioned above.

Oh, I'll be interested to see how the icons and paraphrases work. Its just that even in one of the bootleg videos (the one with the custom face morph Hawke I think), they had a paraphrase with the sarcastic icon and I genuinely have no idea how Hawke might deliver the response in the context of the scene.- I could envision it playing out several different ways.

No system will be perfect, but so long as DA2 is supposed to be a first person narrative as opposed to ME's third person narrative where you're just directing Shepard, I think full text at least gives you more confidence and a better sense of agency with the PC, even if it might hurt one's precious cinematic presentation. Then again, BioWare hasn't really mentioned what sort of narrative they consider DA2 yet, have they?

Upsettingshorts wrote..
I'm on the
fence on that, conceptually.  I have to see it working.  Will I be able
to ignore the full line?  Will I want to?  I'm not sure if I'll like
it.  There's a very good chance I'll play that game, so maybe it will
change my mind, maybe it won't.

Look here. Skip ahead to about the 7:40 mark to see it. This is the console version, so considering they've said they're making a separate PC UI , I don't know if it'll look the same there.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

This breaks down right into personal preference. It breaks my experience to assume my entire party is mentally deficient, and essentially makes my first two playthroughs a test-run so I can at least understand how some of the options actually play out so I can RP them effectively.  Mass Effect had some pretty crazy on-rail moments too with the SHEP ANGRY!! moments, but intent is designed to avoid this.

You'll still have to test run.  Or do you really think there can be a system so perfect that it will always run just as you'd like to roleplay?

Mass Effect was ruined for me because I couldn't stand either butch/ dull femShep or flat/ dull mShep.  I didn't even get to the point where Shepard was running off the dialogue rails.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Well, I'm confused.  If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?

Because the game doesn't acknowldge it. You could be barking like a dog and Alistiar might just be insane and think you're expressing sympathy at Duncan for all the difference it makes in-game.

You know your line wasn't sarcastic because people consistently act in a way that takes it hostile.

There's a difference between:

Alistair, put on the damn crown. <_<

And

Alistair, put on the damn crown.

I didn't use a hostile emoticon because we don't have one. But you can see how you can totally change the meaning of a sentence just by changing the emotional context around it.

For fun, this one has a different meaning too:

Alistair, put on the damn crown.

In the new system, you will still have mismatches.  There's no way to convey any nuance in the paraphrase, so you won't know if he's going to deliver the line as lighthearted sarcastic or bitterly sarcastic (for instance).

But you will know whether the line will be delivered sarcastically. This is enough for me. One thing that needs to be appreciated is that as groups, we value the precise expression differently. To me, the exact way a character says something is not as important as the general way the character says it.

So you can end up with a case where not only do the NPCs react differently than you expected, your PC is not acting as you'd want him to, either.  No system is perfect- it's in the nature of the thing.

But it depends on what it means for you for the PC to act how you expect. This is where part of our problem comes up. To me, what matters is having my PC act in such a way that s/he influences the world how I want them to. Expression is irreelvant except insofar as it makes other people act the way I want. If I can't predict how my dialogue choice will make people act, then the system fails.

AP is a good example of this. It absolutely fails as an RPG, but it can handle the purpose of dialogue wheel because it's trivially obvious how you're going to deliver something and, based on your knowledge of the other characters and the context.

[bsbcaer]

Mary Kirby wrote...

This is why, in ME2, you have flirt lines with paraphrases like, "I want you, Thane." Even though what Shepard says does not in any way sound that ridiculously blatant. Because the 30 characters of paraphrase have to convey without a doubt that you are going to initiate a romance. Frankly, I would rather have a little flirt icon and a paraphrase that says, "I'm here for you." Closer to what I'm actually going to say, and it doesn't make me cringe to select it. I don't think that's dumbed down, I think that's just plain better. But your mileage may vary.

So, does this mean that you writers are essentially "tweeting" the paraphrases?  You only have less than (lets say) 100 characters per paraphrase?  Or do you get some leeway with it?

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
You'll still have to test run.  Or do you really think there can be a system so perfect that it will always run just as you'd like to roleplay?

It's about it being good enough. Mass Effect was really easy to predict, except for the Council/Saren scenes were Bioware just decided SHEPARD ANGRY! and made every line and reaction identical. That's just crappy writing, though.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I'm confused.  If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?

Because it wasn't.  If the game doesn't reflect a choice, the choice didn't exist.  Therefore, the line was never sarcastic, we only thought it was.  

Addai67 wrote...

You'll still have to test run.  Or do you
really think there can be a system so perfect that it will always run
just as you'd like to roleplay?

cRPGs have never allowed me to "roleplay" in the sense it is used in this context.  I've always simply chosen from lines I viewed as consistent with a general idea.  That's all the genre is capable of delivering for me.  It's why I use the choose-your-own adventure book metaphor for my approach to these games.  The choices and their consequences are already written, I can't invent either simply because they are not explicitly contradicted.  Well, I could but that wouldn't be fun at all for me, and I'd just as soon quit playing a scripted game and go write a story if that's the kind of experience I want.  

As long as I can predict the intent and consequences of my protagonist's actions, that is more than enough for me.  The specific wording or nuance of the protagonist's dialogue was never in my hands anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You'll still have to test run.  Or do you really think there can be a system so perfect that it will always run just as you'd like to roleplay?

It's about it being good enough. Mass Effect was really easy to predict, except for the Council/Saren scenes were Bioware just decided SHEPARD ANGRY! and made every line and reaction identical. That's just crappy writing, though.

The DA writers are great, I never had problems in DAO.  So it's a mystery why there was this conclusion that the dialogue system was "broken" and hence we're now being forced to play Dragon Effect.

*pours UpsettingShorts a whiskey and one for myself*

[Aermas]

[Sarcastic Remark] Well we could be going down the line where we all start speaking like Elcor

[Ziggeh]

fchopin wrote...

I have no problem with people who wish to use the icons but what is wrong with having an option for people that do not need any guidance?

You're asking for an option that substantially increases the potential for miscommunication?

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 05 décembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

[Sarcastic Remark] Well we could be going down the line where we all start speaking like Elcor

hah, that was sort of the joke they were making.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Therefore, the line was never sarcastic, we only thought it was.  

And how did you come to this conclusion?  How do you know it wasn't just a misunderstanding?  Misunderstandings do happen in the real world, yes.

[Stinkface27]

Mary Kirby wrote...

This is why, in ME2, you have flirt lines with paraphrases like, "I want you, Thane." Even though what Shepard says does not in any way sound that ridiculously blatant. Because the 30 characters of paraphrase have to convey without a doubt that you are going to initiate a romance. Frankly, I would rather have a little flirt icon and a paraphrase that says, "I'm here for you." Closer to what I'm actually going to say, and it doesn't make me cringe to select it. I don't think that's dumbed down, I think that's just plain better. But your mileage may vary.

Perfect! That is really such a relief to hear. I love the balance between "exactly what I'm going to say" and "something so far out that you couldn't possibly be confused". And I actually DID cringe when I saw that dialoge option for Thane, lol.

[Dave of Canada]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I'm confused.  If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?

Because the game reads it in one way.

If you say "I hate you so much right now" as a joke and the person takes it badly, how can you react in real life? You can tell him it's okay, you were joking or you can push the point that you hate him or stuff like that. Ingame, if you thought that line was a joke, you're given three choices afterwards:
Character: What? WHAT DID I EVER DO TO YOU?
Choice 1 - You're in my way.
Choice 2 - You're a moron.
Choice 3 - You're stupid.

None of these lines afterwards read like if you saying it jokingly, it's impossible for the writers to dig into the person's mind and pretend to know everything about how people will read a line. At least when you've got tone involved, you know EXACTLY how the line will play out. If I pick sarcastic, I know it'll be sarcastic and that's a hell of a lot better than creating an imaginary tone in my head that will be ignored.

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I'm confused.  If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?

In the new system, you will still have mismatches.  There's no way to convey any nuance in the paraphrase, so you won't know if he's going to deliver the line as lighthearted sarcastic or bitterly sarcastic (for instance).  So you can end up with a case where not only do the NPCs react differently than you expected, your PC is not acting as you'd want him to, either.  No system is perfect- it's in the nature of the thing.

Thats just not the way my mind works.  Sure, I could pretend that I was being sarcastic and the npcs are all just idiots, but I think a more reasonable explanation is that I simply wasnt being sarcastic, and my mind just gravitates to what I think is the more reasonable explanation. 

Who knows, maybe they will have icons that differentiate the different degrees of sarcasm(I agree that that is unlikely).  Even if it doesnt, It will still be an improvement, and hopefully the paraphrase will give clues to whether its light-hearted or biting. 

I agree, no system is perfect, and its impossible to have the PC to say exactly what you want to say and the way you want to say it, but indicating tone/sarcasm is a huge improvement for people who can't pretend that the NPCs are all idiots or simply disregard the npc's reaction