AlanC9 wrote...
That's extremely silly. Hawke isn't looking at icons in the first place.
And in all those cases, Alistair answers "Maker's breath" and we go on as before. You could fill in how you thought the line should have been delivered. There's no cognitive dissonance at all. I understand completely what you're saying, but this isn't a very good example.In Exile wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Well, I'm confused. If NPCs misunderstand, how do you know your line wasn't essentially sarcastic and they just missed it?
Because the game doesn't acknowldge it. You could be barking like a dog and Alistiar might just be insane and think you're expressing sympathy at Duncan for all the difference it makes in-game.
You know your line wasn't sarcastic because people consistently act in a way that takes it hostile.
There's a difference between:
Alistair, put on the damn crown. <_<
And
Alistair, put on the damn crown.
I didn't use a hostile emoticon because we don't have one. But you can see how you can totally change the meaning of a sentence just by changing the emotional context around it.
For fun, this one has a different meaning too:
Alistair, put on the damn crown.
You still won't be able to. That's what Mary Kirby is confirming earlier in the thread, that the little icons will not predict how an NPC will react.Expression is irreelvant except insofar as it makes other people act the way I want. If I can't predict how my dialogue choice will make people act, then the system fails.
AlanC9 wrote...
That's extremely silly. Hawke isn't looking at icons in the first place.
Modifié par fchopin, 06 décembre 2010 - 02:07 .
fchopin wrote...
Morroian wrote...
No because communication is inexact. What may be obvious to 1 person may not be obvious to another. As ME proved.fchopin wrote...
If as you say the text will not be self explanatory and we will need a silly icon to know what direction the conversation will follow then we are really playing a guessing game in regards to text as we will have no idea what our character will say or in what way unless we check what kind of icon is showing and go by that.
Don't you think that is being treated like a child?
We are not talking about ME we are talking about DA which is an rpg with options.
unspoken_demise wrote...
Unless you share my own intended play style in which the Hawke I'm playing, prior to each response, envisions a Rorschach test in which each ink pattern appears to be female genitalia.
Just kidding...
Maria Caliban wrote...
unspoken_demise wrote...
Unless you share my own intended play style in which the Hawke I'm playing, prior to each response, envisions a Rorschach test in which each ink pattern appears to be female genitalia.
Just kidding...
How crude. My Hawke will constantly imagine Georgia O'Keefe paintings.
Maria Caliban wrote...
And there are times in the beginning where you can talk about disliking the Wardens. You can play the role of a reluctant hero.
But later in the game, you accept the Wardens and your role in them. No option. How you go about being a Warden can vary, whether you mix your past and your Warden business can vary, but the PC considers themselves a Warden.
Likewise, in ME, you want to be a SPECTRE. Why is up to you, but it's something the PC wants.
If you desire an RPG where the developers won't hamper your ideal for the character, you need something a bit more open-ended like The Elder Scrolls, Diablo, or Fallout series.
In story-based RPGs, which is all that BioWare makes, there are limits to what PCs can express.
Morroian wrote...
fchopin wrote...
Morroian wrote...
No because communication is inexact. What may be obvious to 1 person may not be obvious to another. As ME proved.fchopin wrote...
If as you say the text will not be self explanatory and we will need a silly icon to know what direction the conversation will follow then we are really playing a guessing game in regards to text as we will have no idea what our character will say or in what way unless we check what kind of icon is showing and go by that.
Don't you think that is being treated like a child?
We are not talking about ME we are talking about DA which is an rpg with options.
But so is ME and the dialogue system is similar.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 décembre 2010 - 02:22 .
It's the same in the way that's revelant to his point.fchopin wrote...
Similar is not the same.
jackkel dragon wrote...
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
There's a credible argument to be made that "story-based" and "RPG" are contradictory.
Doesn't BioWare constantly say they strive to make the best story-based games?
Addai67 wrote...
This has nothing to do with the dialogue delivery system. It is a function of having limited dialogue choices. Nothing about that is going to change in DA2.
fchopin wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
That's extremely silly. Hawke isn't looking at icons in the first place.
We are playing a role playing game so we are supposed to become Hawk while playing the game, whatever disturbs the player breaks immersion with the game character.
In Exile wrote...
No other explanation is reasonable.
Upsettingshorts wrote...
I thought mine was. Still, you might be right.
Very.Maria Caliban wrote...
*Tries to remember the last undefined protagonist RPG that had tactical combat*
Wizardry 8? Maybe the original BG? Wow, modern RPGs must be very frustrating to you.
I've heard of it now. Thank you.You've probably already heard about it, but maybe Age of Decadence?
That's far more likely if you're trying to convey intent rather than just expressing that particular sentence. With intent, you have a specific intent, and if you want to have the PC's words and actions match that you're working with a very narrow set of acceptable outcomes.Dodge-Venom wrote...
What you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense though. To suggest choosing whether an intent or a fully formed response allows you to more completely carry out your character agency is flawed. Either is still restrictive, a finite choice. Someone else is giving you your responses, that is immediately restricting your ability to freely design your character. What if according to the logic you have created for your character none of the responses are appropriate?
I reject your premise. I deny that my character will have one of BioWare's pre-determined intents if the game doesn't make that explcit with something like DA2's iconsystem. In DAO, my character can have literally any intent I can imagine. And there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.Even if you accept that within the scope of such a game you a working within these pre-defined limitations what you are saying still doesn't make much sense. Bioware doesn't know your intent, they don't need to know
it. They care, that’s why they give you a choice. Yet they're giving you an intent. Your character WILL have one of a selection of intents. There is no free agency in that. Your experience is the culmination of multiple pre-defined choices, all of which are wholly created by Bioware. If you can't accept that and enjoy the experience for what it
is, then why are you here?
Yes, they do. They also claim that their games are RPGs.jackkel dragon wrote...
Doesn't BioWare constantly say they strive to make the best story-based games?
Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:47 .
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
In DAO, my character can have literally any intent I can imagine. And there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yes, they do. They also claim that their games are RPGs.
As such, we can't necessarily trust their labelling criteria.
(Kill him)" as an option.
Communicating isn't a thing, so it doesn't make sense to describe someone as being good or bad at it. It doesn't exist.AlanC9 wrote...
Though this can sometimes mean that either your character is terrible at communicating
While that's always possibly true, it would be unreasonable to conclude that the NPC is obtuse. That said, my characters are not always reasonable.or the NPCs are incredibly obtuse.
Zlarm wrote...
Ouch....
As for BioWare making the best story driven games, that used to be the case but they're last two games (DA:O and ME2) had rather subpar main storylines. Maybe they should change their motto to "we strive to make the most streamlined and intense games", those seem to be their favourite buzzwords these days.
But more on topic, I would say the icons are a bit of a step up from Mass Effect (I would still prefer knowing exactly what they're going to say though). I'm wondering how many there are? 3? Sarcastic, Diplomatic, Jerk? Maybe romance/flirt one? Maybe one more for I'm about to stab/punch you (take physical action)?
Modifié par Piecake, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:18 .
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Communicating isn't a thing, so it doesn't make sense to describe someone as being good or bad at it. It doesn't exist.AlanC9 wrote...
Though this can sometimes mean that either your character is terrible at communicating
What do your characters think when an NPC completely misinterprets what the PC said?What I think of the NPC's response doesn't matter at all. All that matters is what my character thinks of the NPC's response.
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