120 réponses à ce sujet

[Bourne Endeavor]

Such is probably one of the more heavily criticized portions of the game, wherein we have our exceptionally brief exchange with the VS and little therefore. Nonetheless, it is frequently cited as horrid for a variety of reasons or such is what I have observed on practically every forum I have visited. Thus, I am curious if anyone liked Horizon or at least accepted the reaction behind our prior love interest's hostility or perhaps I remain amongst the minority.

Personally, I derived a sense of realism in Ash/Kaidan's reaction, under the present circumstances. If we were to view from their perspective, Shepard was killed and they were left to mourn his/her passing and subsequently move on with their lives. Speculation based upon the email would insinuate they mourned for a lengthily period. They catch a glimpse of someone they swore had been him/her, it was not. Perhaps they awoke to momentarily considered everything a horrible dream only to relive the cruelty of reality. In the end, Shepard was dead and nothing would change this certainty. Until two years later...

Fast forward to Mass Effect 2. The only known information they are provided is rumors Shepard is alive, and working for Cerberus. The immediate response would be denial. Such was the sick joke of a twisted person or someone merely using Shepard's name for promotional purposes. In spite of this logical assumption the gradual widespread mention would lead to curiosity. If Shepard was alive, how? With no direct information in regards to the Lazarus Project. All they could conclude was Shepard had faked his/her own death, as remarkably implausible as this may seem; no less so than being resurrected. With this misguided belief, they would further be horrified to learn Shepard is siding with Cerberus, a known terrorist organization who held no qualms experimenting on everything, including humans. Let alone intentionally allowing people to be exposed to Thresher Maws and impaled on Geth spikes. Together, you spent time killing their operatives.

When you combine this alongside the actual meeting, wherein any skepticism of the rumors is removed. It serves an excellent justification for a emotional outburst, one where listening to reason is not possible. Ash is arguably worse. Her family is blacklisted due to her grandfather's actions. This is something Shepard is well aware of and any request of his to have her join Cerberus may as well spit on her family's name.

I suppose one could argue I am attempting to provide depth to a scene where it may have been lacking. It is nonetheless my take on encounter and such was my opinion when I read a discussion about it not too long ago. Thus, I was curious if anyone felt the same or what their reasoning may be to dislike how it was handled.

[Lunatic LK47]

Uh, Shepard did not have access to a computer for two years and wasn't even conscious to do that. BioWare really botched Shepard's set of responses in the writing department and should have had more dialogue trees to convince Ash/Kaidan that it is really Shepard or something like "I had no ****ing choice here. What were the Alliance or the Council doing while I was dead?"

[cdtrk65]

I think alot of it was Shepard's reaction not the VS's..



I dont know...



I have only played a character that was tired of Alliance/Council do nothing attitude toward the reapers. So Shepard's reaction was fine for me.

[rma2110]

No, I agree completely. Kaiden or Ashley simply throwing themselves into Shepard's arm would have been unrealistic and not quite believable. They have been mourning a lost love for two years and struggling to move on, and suddenly BAM! Out of the blue comes Shepard who is working for the former enemy and hasn't bothered to contact them.



I can just imagine Ash or Kaidan saying "of course those rumors of Shepard being alive are untrue, don't you think Id know about if if they were?" Ooops.



Can't say I liked Horizon. It was painful, but that just means it was well written. Now, it's all about the reunion,

[Luigitornado]

I think VS' reactions were fairly reasonable. It makes you wonder what the fans would have changed if they could have handled the scene. I imagine most of them would want some emotional scene of Shepard and VS' embracing (if the VS was your love interest).

Personally I would think that would be too much.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 06 décembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[AdmiralCheez]

I didn't mind that they both raged at me and stormed off; it's an understandable reaction given the circumstances. My only problem was that there wasn't enough individuality in their comments. They pretty much said exactly the same thing. Last time I checked, Ash and Kaidan weren't the exact same person.

[Manic Sheep]

I agree with everything you actually and that’s what I got from it when I went thu horizon.

I'm actually glad they didn't simply except that you’re with Cerberus and jumped into your arms. It would have pissed me off if they had. It ending on a bad note is an opportunity to make the relationship much more dynamic further down the road.

I never really had a problem with the horizon scene. Just because you were in love with someone doesn’t mean you’re going to blindly follow them. Tho they did seem to believe you when you said you had died and been rebuilt if I was the VS I would probably think Cerberus had screwed with your head while they rebuilt you or that you weren’t thinking straight and Cerberus was manipulating you. It doesn’t change the fact that you came out of nowhere after 2 years and are now working with the big bad Cerberus. Shepards reactions were a bit poor and annoyed me but it wasn’t too bad, certainly not the worst in the game.

The only issue I have is that the VS (and many other characters) form ME1 seemed to get shafted and replaced. However I am expecting that the VS will have a much larger role in ME3 and that you will have more interaction and more relationship development with them then. If they get shafted in ME3 as well then I will be pissed off but at the moment I'm only mildly disappointed that there was so little to do with them.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Luigitornado]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, Shepard did not have access to a computer for two years and wasn't even conscious to do that. BioWare really botched Shepard's set of responses in the writing department and should have had more dialogue trees to convince Ash/Kaidan that it is really Shepard or something like "I had no ****ing choice here. What were the Alliance or the Council doing while I was dead?"

I'd rather it not have gone that way. It was an awkard scene, and I'm glad it was.  Ending the meeting on a bad note, gives the writers the power of solving the relationship with the VS at a later point.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Actually, your sentences express my thoughts into the subject, but the obligatory "**** you Shepard" is annoying. Were it optional, as if you didn't use the correct sentences or a paragon/renegade variable, it would be better. Although it could be hard making a renegade answer at that point make Ashley/Kaidan go back lol. Anyway, I guess it was just cutting expenses and a design decision more than anything. I just think myself about this or other stuff like how the "choices didn't matter" as "hell, Bioware doesn't have unlimited time or money...yet".

[Daewan]

I felt the Horizon meeting was a good idea, poorly executed. As others have commented, there was too much interchangeability between Kaidan and Ashley, which was very odd after all of ME1 working so hard to give them individual personalities. Like Ashley calling Shepard a god - that really, in the context of her character from ME1, really made no sense. The event had to happen, and of course your former Alliance crewmember should have been royally pissed to see Shepard with Cerberus, but the dialogue was just weak.

[rma2110]

Seriously, what would have your response had someone told you that Shepard would be working for Cerberus back when you had just finished playing ME1 and ME2 had nit been released?



The similar dialogue does bug me. That was just lazy. At least the the e-mails were different. Seems like Kaiden was doing a better job of moving on before Shepard reappearance threw him for a loop. Poor Ashley just threw herself into her job.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

I don't like it, because I'm forced to go there. Same reason why I don't like the Collector Ship, but at least a can get a new weapon or new weapon training at the ship.

[AntiChri5]

Worst writing of the game.



BioWare knew many of us didn't want to work with Cerberus, and didn't want to be railroaded into it. So what do they so? Make sure Shepards boyfriend/girlfriend yells at Shepard and breaks up with him/her for it as well.

[Lunatic LK47]

Luigitornado wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, Shepard did not have access to a computer for two years and wasn't even conscious to do that. BioWare really botched Shepard's set of responses in the writing department and should have had more dialogue trees to convince Ash/Kaidan that it is really Shepard or something like "I had no ****ing choice here. What were the Alliance or the Council doing while I was dead?"

I'd rather it not have gone that way. It was an awkard scene, and I'm glad it was.  Ending the meeting on a bad note, gives the writers the power of solving the relationship with the VS at a later point.

Except BioWare made Shepard an idiot just because they wrote it that way. I wish they actually went with extra dialogue from the data import (i.e. Tali reunion on Freedom's Progress) just to at least prove Shepard's the real deal and say something like, "Ash/Kaidan, I didn't forget about Cerberus's bad deeds, but I wouldn't be talking to you if it wasn't for them. We'll take them out when the Collectors are gone. Last time I checked, we committed treason just to stop Saren" would have been fine for me.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 06 décembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[Lunatic LK47]

rma2110 wrote...

Seriously, what would have your response had someone told you that Shepard would be working for Cerberus back when you had just finished playing ME1 and ME2 had nit been released?

I had very low expectations, and this is coming from someone who was following up every single news item for ME2 since announcement. Last time I recalled, only Tali was confirmed as a squad member during the preview, and no one knew Garrus was even coming back as a squadmate until a month or two before release.

[NanQuan]

Daewan wrote...

I felt the Horizon meeting was a good idea, poorly executed. As others have commented, there was too much interchangeability between Kaidan and Ashley, which was very odd after all of ME1 working so hard to give them individual personalities. Like Ashley calling Shepard a god - that really, in the context of her character from ME1, really made no sense. The event had to happen, and of course your former Alliance crewmember should have been royally pissed to see Shepard with Cerberus, but the dialogue was just weak.

^Agree. I wasn't an emotional wreck after the scene or anything, but I was a little miffed that Kaidan/Ashley seemed to not have any distinct personality.

On top of that, I was pissed that it felt like all my options to explain myself were gone. If we have to have our crewmates turned against us that's fine, but at least let us argue or have some kind of conflict instead of having Shepard look like a kicked puppy. I'd rather have a shouting match that goes horribly awry then just having to listen to Ash/Kaidan light into you.

[Lunatic LK47]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Worst writing of the game.

BioWare knew many of us didn't want to work with Cerberus, and didn't want to be railroaded into it. So what do they so? Make sure Shepards boyfriend/girlfriend yells at Shepard and breaks up with him/her for it as well.

This. Worst writing of the game, and it made 24 look like Shakespeare.

[ReiSilver]

main problem is the same problem I have whenever someone calls Shep out on working with cerberus and that is my Shep is sole survivor and hates TiM with the burning passion of a thousand suns and does not want to be anywhere near anything to do with cerberus unless she's blowing up another of their botched experiments. As far as role playing went my Shepard wanted the man she loved to be by her side watching her back to make sure none of the cerberus people decided to go mad scientist in the middle of the night or stab her in the back, or explode a chip they left in her brain.

Basically though justified the VS abandoned this Shepard in her biggest hour of need and I had no way for my Shepard to properly react to that.

On the other hand it made dumping Kaidan make a whole lot of sense.

Except they don't let you break up, you can't respond to the email, and then tell you any relationship you pursue will be cheating.... not giving us choices Bioware...

hopefully ME3 will have better writing and will be nicely dramatic.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I didn’t like how they where auto angry it would’ve been better if they where surprised but even their angry state was unclear you say, “Hi” and they say, “ That’s it!” At least with Tali I could tell she was confused Ash/Kaiden’s VA didn’t do so well on that note. Even if they where going to leave you in a huff and stomping their feet they should’ve given you more dialogue choices. Maybe it’s because I romanced Kaiden for one of my sheps but I thought I was starting to get through and then he started to stone wall me which was fine but I should’ve been given the option to say to several people through out the game that I wasn’t with them by choice and that I was sorry for being dead make them feel guilty for assuming they know my motives on the subject.

Ash was stonewall central not even trying to listen and thought that could be seen as a natural response not one point I was given made an impact on giving her a doubt I was a traitor also no response to that line? If you’re going to call me a traitor I want to have say against that but nothing the script was bad, the dialogue choices where bad and not enough time was given to pace the scene properly its sad but I’ve seen better pacing and script writing for soap operas then that. If the writing and acting where done better it could’ve been a memorable scene but as it stands its memorable for all the wrong reasons just like Liara’s in game meeting fiasco. I like that SB was made to soften that blow but I’d rather have a gradual mending from Ash/Kaiden happen in 3 as it progresses not a simple DLC where look we fixed it.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 06 décembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Malanek]

My only issue with it is that Shepard is too cold at the start. He should be delighted that Ash/Kaidan survived and wasn't taken by the collectors and just generally be really glad to see them again. Everything else was OK, their shock and anger at seeing shepard working with cerberus was fine. As was shepards response saying he/she would only do it for the right reasons.

[Bourne Endeavor]

To be fair, while the dialogue certainly could be written better. We are provided an option to claim we are not working for Cerberus and it is merely a begrudged alliance. Ash/Kaidan immediately disregard this saying, "Do you really believe that" and subsequent float the notion of being manipulated. My interpretation of that was as I said. They refused to listen to any rational explanation, as in their mind nothing about what they had witnessed or heard was rational.

That said, I am in complete agreement with Bioware essentially rehashing Kaidan into Ash. The reason I say the aforementioned is because the game vaguely suggests Ash was the default survive. This is apparent is a few scenes and especially aboard the Normandy where Kaidan has on her armor. In actuality, it happened in Mass Effect. Kaidan screaming "You bastard. You're selling us out" is completely removed of his calm demeanor, whereas Ash would certainly crew Udina out. It is indeed lazy and should be rectified in Mass Effect 3.

Daewan wrote...

I felt the Horizon meeting was a good idea, poorly executed. As others have commented, there was too much interchangeability between Kaidan and Ashley, which was very odd after all of ME1 working so hard to give them individual personalities. Like Ashley calling Shepard a god - that really, in the context of her character from ME1, really made no sense. The event had to happen, and of course your former Alliance crewmember should have been royally pissed to see Shepard with Cerberus, but the dialogue was just weak.

If I were to theorize. This could have to do with her religious beliefs. Shepard has both saved the galaxy and transcended death itself. The latter alone could make him comparable to a God to certain extents at least in the Christian religious. Of course this is my little hypothesis, and attempt to play around with Bioware's word choice. Do not hold me to it.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Worst writing of the game.

BioWare knew many of us didn't want to work with Cerberus, and didn't want to be railroaded into it. So what do they so? Make sure Shepards boyfriend/girlfriend yells at Shepard and breaks up with him/her for it as well.

Technically, they could not have known as it was never an option nor were even minor insinuations of it being possible apparent. While they certainly could have gone into greater depth, Shepard working with Cerberus is legitimately explained. From a design perspective, they could not create content that would radically alter the game world due to restrains of being the second act. Can you imagine the nightmare if Mass Effect 2 allowed us to completely refuse to assist Cerberus? They would have to account for possibly half a new game in addition to what is already available. It is a tall order to believe squadmates will return in active form and one we may never see. A whole different arc would be astronomical.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 06 décembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Mallissin]

Horizon had pretty vistas, but a big bug problem.

[MisterDyslexo]

I didn't necessarily mind their reactions so much, even though they were pretty much the same. They sorta set themselves apart in the letter you receive after Horizon. What I hated so much was the terrible, terrible dialogue for Shepard. After dying and meeting the person who you last loved, your first reaction shouldn't be "How you doing Ash? Its been to long." I was literally SCREAMING at my screen for saying that. And then there was the pitiful explanation of what you were doing the past two years. This is how it should have went:

Ash/Kaidan: "Why didn't you say anything? Why didn't you call?"

Shepard: "Because I got frickin' spaced, Cerberus did a Jesus on me, and I woke up a week ago to stop the colony attacks that have taken millions of people! And for all I know, Cerberus put a damn chip in me that if I get out of line, poof, off with my head! So tell me where all in that did I sell out the Alliance or have a chance to call you"



That is the correct reaction to Ash/Kaidan, not "because I'm doing it for humanity". Too much "Mary Sue" writing

[morley37]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I didn't necessarily mind their reactions so much, even though they were pretty much the same. They sorta set themselves apart in the letter you receive after Horizon. What I hated so much was the terrible, terrible dialogue for Shepard. After dying and meeting the person who you last loved, your first reaction shouldn't be "How you doing Ash? Its been to long." I was literally SCREAMING at my screen for saying that. And then there was the pitiful explanation of what you were doing the past two years. This is how it should have went:
Ash/Kaidan: "Why didn't you say anything? Why didn't you call?"
Shepard: "Because I got frickin' spaced, Cerberus did a Jesus on me, and I woke up a week ago to stop the colony attacks that have taken millions of people! And for all I know, Cerberus put a damn chip in me that if I get out of line, poof, off with my head! So tell me where all in that did I sell out the Alliance or have a chance to call you"

That is the correct reaction to Ash/Kaidan, not "because I'm doing it for humanity". Too much "Mary Sue" writing

This. The issue is that shep's responses are all crap! The whole thing felt rushed and clipped, especially considering the immediate crisis was past. We couldn't take a minute and either really have it out or have a real conversation?

It is painfully transparent that all they were trying to do was set up another narrative thread later in the piece. And they got lazy, simply did that as quickly as possible, and didn't bother beyond that. Considering the detail that went into the writing elsewhere, I thought it was shocking.