120 réponses à ce sujet

[LorDC]

I think most of the people are just pissed off because Shepard's talk-no-jutsu didn't work with VS.

[Iakus]

My problems with Horizon, which I consider to be the single worst scene in the entirety of the Mass Effect franchise (no, that's not hyperbole):

1) The VS's reaction should have been surprise, not anger.  Shepard was dead.  For two years.  Now he/she's alive.  And their response is essentially "Why didn't you call?"  That's only the first time I wanted to reach into the monitor and smack Ash/Kaiden.   Something more along the lines of "How is this possible?" or "What are you dong here?" Or even "I need to sit down for a minute"  Think Nassana Dantius when she sees Shepard.  Much more believable.  Like you said, rumors of Shep's survival would likely have been considered ludicrous, if not simply a sick joke.

2) After hearing Shepard was working with Cerberus, the only response seems to be variations of "Traitor!"  Really, Bioware?  This from the person who helped Shepard defy both the Council and Alliance, who helped Shepard commit mutiny two years before?  It never occurs to this individual, who by the way has had his/her life saved by Shepard on a minimum of two occasions (and who's most recent rescue also saved the better part of a colony) that maybe Shepard's doing what he/she's doing for a reason?  That maybe ten minutes of explanation may straighten everything out?  Particularly if Shepard is a) the Sole Survivor or did any of the Cerberus missions in ME 1 or c) acted alien-friendly in ME 1

3) VS has poor obseravional skills.  The Survivor notes if Garrus is there that he's joined Cerberus too.  Umm, Turian.  Human.  Human-centric organization.  Hmm, one of these things is not like the other...Wonder what happens if both Garrus and Mordin are therte?  How would they even know it was Cerberus at all of Shepard didn't open his mouth?

4)  Shepard's responses are complete idiocy.  Granted the VS is being less than helpful.  But Shep's responses made me want  to reach through the screen and smack him too.  I mean, get Joker or Chakwas on the line to explain if you have to, get a Normandy Reunion going!  At that moment, I momentarilly seriously wondered if Miranda lied about putting a chip in Shepard's head.

I'm not saying that the VS needed to swoon at the sight of Shepard, drop everything and join up.  Ash/Kaiden don't even have to approve of working with Cerberus.  But they really need to want to know what the frak is going on.  The Survivor shows remarkably little curiosity given recent events.

Oh, and they really, really need seperate personalities too.

Modifié par iakus, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[kraidy1117]

I liked Horizon, until I met VS, then I hated the mission. It was just poor writing. Ash and Kai, good job, could have been better and more uniqueness, but my problem is with Shepard's lines, more so if you romanced Ash/Kai.

We have crappy lines to choose from and lines that pretty much make Shepard in that scene a drone, and what do we get after that scene? Illuim, lovely....

Modifié par kraidy1117, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[AdmiralCheez]

LorDC wrote...

I think most of the people are just pissed off because Shepard's talk-no-jutsu didn't work with VS.

Actually, it's not that the talk-no-jutsu failed; it's actually fun when Shep can charm or bully someone into doing things his way.  The problems people have with it involve the facts that Kadian and Ashley were fused into the same person and that Shep's lines were rather... lackluster.  There was no "I hate Cerberus" option.

Nevermind.  Just read what iakus wrote.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Iakus]

kraidy1117 wrote...

I liked Horizon, until I met VS, then I hated the mission. It was just poor writing. Ash and Kai, good job, could have been better and more uniqueness, but my problem is with Shepard's lines, more so if you romanced Ash/Kai.

We have crappy lines to choose from and lines that pretty much make Shepard in that scene a drone, and what do we get after that scene? Illuim, lovely....

Fortunately LOTSB did a lot to rehabilitate the Liara character.  If some sort of Virmire Survivor DLC ever does get made, maybe it'll help them too.

[kraidy1117]

iakus wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I liked Horizon, until I met VS, then I hated the mission. It was just poor writing. Ash and Kai, good job, could have been better and more uniqueness, but my problem is with Shepard's lines, more so if you romanced Ash/Kai.

We have crappy lines to choose from and lines that pretty much make Shepard in that scene a drone, and what do we get after that scene? Illuim, lovely....

Fortunately LOTSB did a lot to rehabilitate the Liara character.  If some sort of Virmire Survivor DLC ever does get made, maybe it'll help them too.

Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase Bioware?

I should get the same enjoyment I get out of playing with Fiona Shepard with Bastila and Josh, which I don't.....

[LorDC]

iakus wrote...

My problems with Horizon, which I consider to be the single worst scene in the entirety of the Mass Effect franchise (no, that's not hyperbole):

1) The VS's reaction should have been surprise, not anger.  Shepard was dead.  For two years.  Now he/she's alive.  And their response is essentially "Why didn't you call?"  That's only the first time I wanted to reach into the monitor and smack Ash/Kaiden.   Something more along the lines of "How is this possible?" or "What are you dong here?" Or even "I need to sit down for a minute"  Think Nassana Dantius when she sees Shepard.  Much more believable.  Like you said, rumors of Shep's survival would likely have been considered ludicrous, if not simply a sick joke.

2) After hearing Shepard was working with Cerberus, the only response seems to be variations of "Traitor!"  Really, Bioware?  This from the person who helped Shepard defy both the Council and Alliance, who helped Shepard commit mutiny two years before?  It never occurs to this individual, who by the way has had his/her life saved by Shepard on a minimum of two occasions (and who's most recent rescue also saved the better part of a colony) that maybe Shepard's doing what he/she's doing for a reason?  That maybe ten minutes of explanation may straighten everything out?  Particularly if Shepard is a) the Sole Survivor or did any of the Cerberus missions in ME 1 or c) acted alien-friendly in ME 1

3) VS has poor obseravional skills.  The Survivor notes if Garrus is there that he's joined Cerberus too.  Umm, Turian.  Human.  Human-centric organization.  Hmm, one of these things is not like the other...Wonder what happens if both Garrus and Mordin are therte?  How would they even know it was Cerberus at all of Shepard didn't open his mouth?

4)  Shepard's responses are complete idiocy.  Granted the VS is being less than helpful.  But Shep's responses made me want  to reach through the screen and smack him too.  I mean, get Joker or Chakwas on the line to explain if you have to, get a Normandy Reunion going!  At that moment, I momentarilly seriously wondered if Miranda lied about putting a chip in Shepard's head.

I'm not saying that the VS needed to swoon at the sight of Shepard, drop everything and join up.  Ash/Kaiden don't even have to approve of working with Cerberus.  But they really need to want to know what the frak is going on.  The Survivor shows remarkably little curiosity given recent events.

Oh, and they really, really need seperate personalities too.

While this is true I think that Bioware is preparing DLC(or maybe this gonna happen at the beginning of ME3) involving VS. It will explaing his/her behavior and all things will make sense in retrospect.

[Fiery Phoenix]

iakus wrote...
*snip*

 Nailed it! 

[Selenora]

When i first played ME2 and got to Horizon, i just quited the game for months. Not that i was pissed off with Bioware for giving us THAT scene..noooooooooo

I see the whole scene diferently now, but still......

and shep's lines are priceless

Hi Kai.......how you've been?

I would certainly tell something like that to the person im still in love. Not jump from happiness to see him alive, not hug him and kiss him, nooooo..that would be too .........human for Shep to do....

[AntiChri5]

Technically, they could not have known as it was never an option nor were even minor insinuations of it being possible apparent. While they certainly could have gone into greater depth, Shepard working with Cerberus is legitimately explained. From a design perspective, they could not create content that would radically alter the game world due to restrains of being the second act. Can you imagine the nightmare if Mass Effect 2 allowed us to completely refuse to assist Cerberus? They would have to account for possibly half a new game in addition to what is already available. It is a tall order to believe squadmates will return in active form and one we may never see. A whole different arc would be astronomical.

I acknowledge the need for a set path in an rpg. I dislike this one, but acknowledge the need for it.

The problem is that we have to put up with our characters friend/lover calling them a traitor because of a set path we do not like.

The VS situation on Horizon would be fine in a book or a movie, but not a game.

Not only are they taking away our choice, but they are having our character get insulted and dumped on top of it.

[Praetor Knight]

iakus wrote...

My problems with Horizon, which I consider to be the single worst scene in the entirety of the Mass Effect franchise (no, that's not hyperbole):

*snip*

I agree, and to top off what you said, Shep just finished taking out Harby, some Collectors, husks, annoying Scions surrounded by Husks, and that darned Praetorian.
So Shep must be feeling wow , I'm awesome , nothing can stop me now ,
I just saved a Colony from impending doom!
Then you are treated to that awkward reunion with the VS, where all that is really noticed is Cerberus?
The agony! I felt really sorry for Shep not being able to say the right thing and then to be treated like that.

It was rather anti-climatic, but maybe that was intended.

[RiouHotaru]

I never had an issue with the scene itself, and unlike most people, I liked most of Shepard's responses except for the choice of opening line. It's laughably awkward no matter what you choose, but my pet peeves are:



A) Their complete and jarring lack of faith in Shepard. I mean, iakus said it himself earlier, you did a number of death-defying and authority-defying stunts back in ME1 Why is ME2 treated as completely odd by comparison? Even if you use the logical (and hilariously) neutral responses of "I was kind of unconscious the whole time" and "You know me, I wouldn't do this except for the right reasons" the logic just bounces off of them.



Fixation on Cerberus. Srsly, as soon as the word Cerberus leaves your mouth they are on you and NEVER let go. It's like their brains switched over to some kind of single-track mode, some kind of sleeper programming/brainwashing. It's stupid.



Overall, I felt that the reaction, while plausible, came off as incredibly hostile for no good reason, like they wanted any excuse to say "No, I don't want to go with you." Something a bit more peaceful would've felt better. I also feel like their reaction was written to encourage you to cheat on them for another LI

[hong]

Since I thought all the romances in ME1 were a bit silly, I wasn't particularly fussed about Horizon.

[Dean_the_Young]

What do I think about someone NOT bending over backwards and forgetting all prior morals and loyalties the moment Shepard comes in room and opens his mouth?



What do I think about someone ripping into Shepard for acts that really couldn't avoided, as opposed to him never being truly confronted by anyone important ever?



What do I think about someone saying what many of the anti-Cerberus people would feel if they weren't Shepard?





I approved.

[krimesh]

iakus wrote...

My problems with Horizon, which I consider to be the single worst scene in the entirety of the Mass Effect franchise (no, that's not hyperbole):

1) The VS's reaction should have been surprise, not anger.  Shepard was dead.  For two years.  Now he/she's alive.  And their response is essentially "Why didn't you call?"  That's only the first time I wanted to reach into the monitor and smack Ash/Kaiden.   Something more along the lines of "How is this possible?" or "What are you dong here?" Or even "I need to sit down for a minute"  Think Nassana Dantius when she sees Shepard.  Much more believable.  Like you said, rumors of Shep's survival would likely have been considered ludicrous, if not simply a sick joke.

2) After hearing Shepard was working with Cerberus, the only response seems to be variations of "Traitor!"  Really, Bioware?  This from the person who helped Shepard defy both the Council and Alliance, who helped Shepard commit mutiny two years before?  It never occurs to this individual, who by the way has had his/her life saved by Shepard on a minimum of two occasions (and who's most recent rescue also saved the better part of a colony) that maybe Shepard's doing what he/she's doing for a reason?  That maybe ten minutes of explanation may straighten everything out?  Particularly if Shepard is a) the Sole Survivor or did any of the Cerberus missions in ME 1 or c) acted alien-friendly in ME 1

3) VS has poor obseravional skills.  The Survivor notes if Garrus is there that he's joined Cerberus too.  Umm, Turian.  Human.  Human-centric organization.  Hmm, one of these things is not like the other...Wonder what happens if both Garrus and Mordin are therte?  How would they even know it was Cerberus at all of Shepard didn't open his mouth?

4)  Shepard's responses are complete idiocy.  Granted the VS is being less than helpful.  But Shep's responses made me want  to reach through the screen and smack him too.  I mean, get Joker or Chakwas on the line to explain if you have to, get a Normandy Reunion going!  At that moment, I momentarilly seriously wondered if Miranda lied about putting a chip in Shepard's head.

I'm not saying that the VS needed to swoon at the sight of Shepard, drop everything and join up.  Ash/Kaiden don't even have to approve of working with Cerberus.  But they really need to want to know what the frak is going on.  The Survivor shows remarkably little curiosity given recent events.

Oh, and they really, really need seperate personalities too.

I totally realize that there are many people here who are emotionally involved with the VS, and I am not one of them.
As far as the VS's first reaction is concerned, I have always understood it not to be quite the first reaction. After all the VS had been sent to investigate possible Cerberus involvement with the vanishing of the colonies, and there had been rumors of Shepard working for Cerberus too (thanks to TIM) - those rumors were certainly amplified by Anderson's silence on the matter. Think about it. Shepard is said to be back (after you had thought him/her to be dead for two years) and to be working with Cerberus - the enemy - and you are actually sent to investigate this! The VS *did* spend a lot of time thinking about this, before meeting Shepard. Actually seeing him/her - with or without an actual Cerberus escort - in full health, doing what Shepard has always been doing, but without his trusted VS, exactly where you were supposed to investigate Cerberus activities - well, that'd make me a little sceptical too. Shouldn't Shepard have contacted the VS at SOME point, instead of running into him/her on some colony outside Citadel space (and possibly saying things like "Oh, I am not *really* working for Cerberus. It only seems that way." or "Cerberus are the good guys here, and unlike your damn Alliance they are doing something against the *real* threat! They saved my life too, while you gave up on me, ****!")?
Given this context, which comes to be from stretching the in-game evidence a little - I admit it - the VS's behavior seems quite plausible to me. So the real question is, why didn't Shepard send Kaidan/Ash a message right away, saying "Hey, I'm alive again, just woke up Cerberus has me though, strings attached, blabla, what's your take?" For me the answer is that TIM did everything to discourage that - had to have been more, than is actually in the game. (Not everything is in the game, don't forget that; never saw my Shepard sleep or eat, and if the romance scenes end where the screen goes dark, then there will never be any little blue children -  how sad.)

Finally it is worth to note that in ME personal is not the same as important. Relationships do not turn the universe around. You don't make decision where you decide between mission and LI, for example. For any Shepard Bioware has allowed us to have up till now, the mission goes first (albeit there is no situation where Shepard has to prove it on a dramatic example - possibly because some players might disagree). So the motto of ME2 is, let's figure out the Collectors first, and get along with old friends later, if it is hard work.
In this same spirit Liara was left alone in ME2 (on a personal level - assuming that LotSB is played after SM), so that Shepard would not be distracted from his/her mission. Later Liara got a lot of attention in LotSB and I expect the same for the VS.

Modifié par krimesh, 06 décembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[JedTed]

I completly agree with the OP here. At first i was annoyed that the only thought on Ashley's mind was that Shepard's working for Cerberus. I would've liked to say that something like if i could contact her i would but i was technically DEAD for the past two years, however after i learned to see things from her POV i accepted it.



I just hope they give us more interaction with Ash/Kaiden in ME3, especially if you stayed loyal to them.

[Commander Kurt]

Well, to be fair, I too have a hard time trusting people whose explanation for anything is "I was dead at the time!"

[mineralica]

Of course, as any fan, I'd like the possibility to have Kaidan on Normandy again. But:

1. no one sane med expert will trust to claim that after colliding with planet body can be rebuilt. Keeping memory and personality intact, by the way.

2. there's no way to prove that Shepard hasn't got controlling chip, hidden controlling chip or triggered controlling chip.Summing up with 1., Shepard on Horizon was a complete stranger with familiar face.

3. Normandy appeared on Horizon a bit too quick - it looked like planned attack and "defense"

So I completely approve that Kaidan disagrees with Shepard and walks away. The major problem that bothers me is a wish to say: "Ashley, take off this mask".

[hawat333]

I did actually like it, with the hostility of our (or former in some case)  love interest.
It was a human reaction which helped develop the character further.
It was also a believable human reaction as opposed to some that appears in the game.
It absolutely makes sense, if people care to think about the situation.

If it is criticized in every forum you encountered, that can be because of a shallow view of the situation, as if you take the facts in consideration, it's clear what causes the reaction. Especially if you combine it with human nature.
On the other hand, Shepard's lack of communitacion (oh come on, don't tell me he/she couldn't track is LI down with all the resources in his/her hand) is a poor implementation of character. But as a reaction to this, the LI's behaviour is not only human but more or less (less in fact  ) rightful.

[Il Divo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What do I think about someone NOT bending over backwards and forgetting all prior morals and loyalties the moment Shepard comes in room and opens his mouth?

What do I think about someone ripping into Shepard for acts that really couldn't avoided, as opposed to him never being truly confronted by anyone important ever?

What do I think about someone saying what many of the anti-Cerberus people would feel if they weren't Shepard?


I approved.

This. I find it difficult to understand why so many people expected Shepard-Ashley to pick up right where they left off. It has been two years, during which the VS tells us they spent all that time trying to forget about Shepard. I don't see why the VS is expected to calmly sit down and chat about what's happened in the last two years. 

[Aigyl]

For the most part I liked Horizon (there's Vigil music for crying out loud!) for reasons others have said.

Ash and Kaidan's reactions seemed plausible to me - they're angry, they're not going to respond to logic or rational arguments. I already knew they weren't going to join the team so I wasn't expecting the renunion to end very well. Plus it's always nice when someone doesn't bow down to the Church of Shepard, I would've actually been annoyed if it was all sunshine and rainbows with Ash/Kaidan accepting everything Shepard said.

I did hate Shepard's lines however:

Ash: *walks up and hugs Shepard* I thought you were dead...

Shepard: It's been a long time Ash, whassup?



.....err, I did pick the top right option, right?

Modifié par Aigyl, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:07 .

[Slavka13748]

When it comes to Horizon, I'm on the VS's side. Their reaction was pretty plausible in my eyes. Shepard's, on the other hand...



Wow. Every line that came out of her mouth was just plain stupid. Seriously, it's been two years and the only thing you can think to say is "how've you been"? I'd expect slightly more tact from the hero of the Citadel. And don't even get me started on the whole Cerberus thing - I wasn't happy with that plot decision from day one, and now I can't even say that I don't want to be working with them?



Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there. Basically, I think it was the right decision to have Kaidan / Ashley be angry at Shepard, but I was frustrated by the inability of Shepard to respond like, well, a normal human.

[Lord_Caledore]

^ I agree. The VS's reaction was understandable. Showing up after being believed dead for two years, and then suddenly working with Cerberus, is a rather extraordinary circumstance. I can understand how they'd react with anger and hurt. I'm also glad they didn't bend over backwards just because it's Shepard; I get tired of so many NPCs worshiping at Shep's feet, so it was refreshing to be challenged for once.



In any case, it's Cerberus. Given what the VS saw in ME1, they do some pretty sick experiments. And now they've brought Shepard back to life - and is there really any reason for the VS to believe that Cerberus couldn't have tampered with Shepard in some way. You know, like the control chip that WOULD have been implanted if Miranda had her way? If I were the VS, I wouldn't trust that Shep wasn't being controlled or manipulated in some way.



But Shep's lines were just bad. The "how've you been" line makes me cringe every time, particularly if the VS was romanced. And you just can't really explain your actions very well, so Shep comes off giving these lame excuses rather than a legit reason for working for Cerberus.

[Da_Lion_Man]

I think people just exaggerate, it's not all that bad. Even though it sucks how the VS rejects you, I can't say I was bothered with it.

I was more pissed with the final battles of this level on insanity.

[Funkcase]

The VS were good on Horizon, great voice acting for Ash and Kaidan, and not bending over for Shepard.. The thing I hate about Horizion is Shepard. His damn responses, who's idea was it for that crap?

I hope in ME3 and possibly dlc that Bioware do Ash and Kaidan some justice, although im worried they will mess Ash up as Chris L'Etoile the one who wrote Ashleys character has left Bioware.

Modifié par Funkcase, 06 décembre 2010 - 06:09 .