120 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiannawolf]

At first I was like: COOL! Time to go in and extract old ally buddy and kick collector butt.



Reality: WTF??? I HATE CERBY! TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!

[Badpie]

I can chock up the kind of misplaced anger with Shepard and even the doofus dialogue from Shepard to the both of them being unprepared to see each other. (But that's only because I had to rationalize the sh*tty writing)



I mean, neither one really had preparation for an encounter with each other. It was bound to be...less than graceful... from both sides.



This is why I'm so p*ssed about Ash and Kaidan being molded into one freakin' character. Ash, I can definitely SEE having that reaction. She strikes me as the type that when she's confused or feels defensive defaults to some sort of attack or anger or something. Kaidan is just...not that way - he's much more calm and rational. He always thinks before he speaks whereas Ash is much more likely to say something she would regret later, hence the email.



I can also imagine (again because I have to because of the writing) that Shepard was not only not prepared, but also just didn't know how to greet her or speak to her since she's been living a life for two years without him. It's pretty awkward.

[V-rex]

Like others have said, I don't condemn Ashley for not joining Shepard on Horizon, or for that matter being confused that the man she loves just returns out of nowhere now working for Cerberus. That made sense to me, and it's nice to see that not every NPC has to agree with Shepard.



But, I really don't like the lousy dialogue you are given, or the way the scene forces itself down only one path with only the illusion of free choice but most of all I hate how this is all I get. Sure, there is an email sent and yes it was enough to convince Shepard of the truth of the old phrase 'Ash is worth it' but at the same time an Email is small and easily missed or forgotten, filed away with all the other emails of all the other little things I did in the past game.

So while the Liara romance gets a huge DLC and a comic book, I having romanced Ashley get to have that entire subplot just filed away among the horde of other small unimportant choices.



Plus, it doesn't help that the game continues to forget Ashley even exists. The occassional remark from Joker or Kelly aside, it's like she never existed. Kasumi doesn't comment on the relationship, Liara who comments on all the Mass Effect 2 relationships in her DLC doesn't think to drop the line:

"So, how are things between you an Ashley/Kaiden?"



It's like the game itself, has just dropped out of contact, one email and a picture on my counter, that's all I get. I feel seriously under appreciated here.



Then of course, there's the backlash... oh the backlash. People leaping at the opportunity to moan and whine about how Ashley/Kaiden didn't agree with them ONE TIME in all the game, and instead just go ahead and condemn them wholesale for it.... I honestly am getting sick of having to defend Ashley's position here. It's getting kind of annoying, truth be told.

That said, this thread is full of reasoned opinions and implied understanding of the Virmire Survivor's position on things, so it might be getting better.



I guess what I'm saying is, it upset me but I understand why Ashley would respond the way she did in that situation. What I'm mad at is Shepard's crappy responses, the lack of recognition of Ashley for the rest of the game and the fact that the horde of angry trolls continue to get mad about it, seven months later.



If nothing else though, I hold onto hope that things get better... it's about all I can do.

[Badpie]

Well said, V-rex.

[Lunatic LK47]

V-rex wrote...

Like others have said, I don't condemn Ashley for not joining Shepard on Horizon, or for that matter being confused that the man she loves just returns out of nowhere now working for Cerberus. That made sense to me, and it's nice to see that not every NPC has to agree with Shepard.

Problem is Virmire Survivor already went through hell with Shepard for at least months (i.e. I don't know, *AN ENTIRE GAME*) and should know him/her better than this. All I got from them is "You're a traitor because you joined Cerberus for the LULZ."

But, I really don't like the lousy dialogue you are given, or the way the scene forces itself down only one path with only the illusion of free choice but most of all I hate how this is all I get. Sure, there is an email sent and yes it was enough to convince Shepard of the truth of the old phrase 'Ash is worth it' but at the same time an Email is small and easily missed or forgotten, filed away with all the other emails of all the other little things I did in the past game.
So while the Liara romance gets a huge DLC and a comic book, I having romanced Ashley get to have that entire subplot just filed away among the horde of other small unimportant choices.

This, I entirely agree. The Data import should have had more of the Tali Freedom's Progress treatement (i.e. "Ash/Kaidan, you've been on my crew before. You know how I operated, and last time I checked, you helped me commit mutiny to stop Saren while the Council was sitting on their asses.")

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[ruchti5]

amen to what v-rex said. but i do agree that the fact that Shepard's attempts to get virmire survivor to see his/her side is rather lame.

[Dean_the_Young]

Liara only got a DLC nearly a year after the game came out: before that, many fans frothed at her romance as well. If, when, a Virmire Survivor DLC comes out, it can just as well expand upon the VS connection.

[achwas]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Liara only got a DLC nearly a year after the game came out: before that, many fans frothed at her romance as well. If, when, a Virmire Survivor DLC comes out, it can just as well expand upon the VS connection.

But for Liara at least, as the many attempts at dissecting the game's dialogue thoroughly proved, there was "deeper" scene in planning, in the sense of deeper than the "socket" in place in Illium from the beginning.
And even without the DLC she reacted with far more nuance and interest in Shepard  (tehre at least was a reunion kiss... from "shy" and awkward" liara ) than the VS - both in explaining herself, having Shepard explain his/her position and actually bothering to think about the Cerberus angle.

But given the VSs and Liara's individual character treatment in ME-1, I found both that and the Horizon not really surprising. People who actually like Kaiden and Ashley ( am replaying ME-1 atm and even 2 years down the road, Kaiden still grates on my nerves ) might disagree on that.

[Nozybidaj]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Such is probably one of the more heavily criticized portions of the game,

For me it was the singular moment in the game where I felt any connection at all to ME1.  Ash/Kaidan on Horizion is the only time I can point to in the whole game and say "Yep, that's the same character from ME1".  Everyone else is just along for the ride.  Shep/Anderson/Council/Liara/et al are so foreign and removed from their ME1 counterparts that I thought the short Horizion scene was a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale 25 hours.

[Dean_the_Young]

achwas wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Liara only got a DLC nearly a year after the game came out: before that, many fans frothed at her romance as well. If, when, a Virmire Survivor DLC comes out, it can just as well expand upon the VS connection.

But for Liara at least, as the many attempts at dissecting the game's dialogue thoroughly proved, there was "deeper" scene in planning, in the sense of deeper than the "socket" in place in Illium from the beginning.

The only people who suspected it at the time were those who looked at or were aware of the hidden in-game dialgues not visible to the general public (which, come to that, weren't even used) hinting at the Shadow Broker DLC. Those files didn't even have romance in them.

People hoped, but had no basis, for seeing Shadow Broker DLC (which many didn't know about) as the 'oh, it's always been planned as an improvement) until, well, they saw Shadow Broker. Likewise, many are hoping for a Virmire DLC to solve their woes. If it does, or even attempts to, it can just as well qualify for the 'but it was always intended' disclaimer as Shadow Broker gave closure/resumption of the Shepard/Liara fanbase.

And even without the DLC she reacted with far more nuance and interest in Shepard  (tehre at least was a reunion kiss... from "shy" and awkward" liara ) than the VS - both in explaining herself, having Shepard explain his/her position and actually bothering to think about the Cerberus angle.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Both Liara's and the Virmire Survivor's first reunion were anything but overwhelming in touchy-adorableness resumption, and a strong difference is that, too date, the Virmire Survivor hasn't had the privalege of having as much time (or even a second appearance), while Liara was lucky enough to be approachable for a second scene.

Personally, and this is strictly personal mind you, hearing someone claim to do such intense analysis about Liara and then turn around and claim that the Virmire Survivor's positions have little basis is, well, not suggestive of 'analysis' as 'hearing what was wanted/acceptable'.

But given the VSs and Liara's individual character treatment in ME-1, I found both that and the Horizon not really surprising. People who actually like Kaiden and Ashley ( am replaying ME-1 atm and even 2 years down the road, Kaiden still grates on my nerves ) might disagree on that.

Well, I don't find it surprising either, and I like both of them.

[Bourne Endeavor]

I can definitely agree Shepard's dialogue held cringe worthy moments, although if you are meticulous in how you pick your options it can sound somewhat decent at best, tolerable at worst. If I recall there is one that specifically allows you to state you are not working for Cerberus. Unfortunately, it is brushed aside relatively fast, which under the circumstances is entirely logical for Ash/Kaidan. I had wished Shepard would reiterate the point or even have the possibility of being angry him/herself. That was arguably my disappointment with the scene. Shepard was completely apathetic for the majority. Granted, this is true for numerous portions of the game. In the end, the opening "So how have you been?" rose an eye brow from me the same way it did for everyone else. Even a "It is good to see you again Ash/Kaidan. I missed you" would be enough. The line is not so bad as when it is delivered. "How have you been?" is more a follow up query, not the initiation.

One element I believe may have provided some benefit to minimize the dislike is if Ash/Kaidan's email was a fully rendered scene perhaps at the Citadel. Meet on neutral ground and openly discuss it. For me, while I liked the emotion depicted he the email, it felt... disconnecting if that makes sense.As was mentioned, Ash/Kaidan felt forgotten subsequent to Horizon, more so than any other character because you literally can never talk to them again. Hopefully a DLC will remedy this.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Telemachus78]

I personally can see the reaction of Ash at Horizon. If I was in that situation I definatly would have reacted in the same way. I just think that the whole Horizon scene was either a middle finger to Ash/Kaiden fans or a promise of a huge DLC or role in ME3.

[Funkcase]

I like the fact Horizon adds more drama to the VS romance though, cant wait to see what happens next.! I Just hope Shepard has good lines though.

[Milana_Saros]

Funkcase wrote...

I like the fact Horizon adds more drama to the VS romance though, cant wait to see what happens next.! I Just hope Shepard has good lines though.

Indeed. Even if Kaidan especially might not seem the passionate LI in the game, it's always the quiet ones that eventually *explode* with emotions. There's a tension now. Can't wait to finally have a chat with him and then have the awkward reunion suddenly turn into a fiery, steamy....omnomnomnom.

[Arbalest7]

The whole thing could have been handled better but my biggest pet peeve was just watching Kaiden try to individually shoot down all those seekers rather than using his biotics.

[Milana_Saros]

Arbalest7 wrote...

The whole thing could have been handled better but my biggest pet peeve was just watching Kaiden try to individually shoot down all those seekers rather than using his biotics.

Good point. I always wondered why the hell would he do that

"Basically any biotic could do that" when talking about the biotic shield in the last mission but Kaidan starts shooting bugs with a weapon he couldn't even use well in ME1 to begin with.

[Sparda Stonerule]

I liked them mostly because they felt awkward. Shepard knew they would be there, and the VS suspected Shepard would be there. Both of them more than likely had preconceived notions on how the whole thing would go down. Shepard (on the upper right) opens with an awkward but friendly question. The VS probably expecting more over reacts and wonders allowed if that's all they have to say. Shepard's view is skewed since for him time doesn't seem to have advanced much. However the VS spent two years in service to the Alliance, and from what I can tell of the Alliance not many people did much to spare Shepard's name.



So it felt more like reality when talking to someone. Shepard tried a route and it failed and blew back on him. I mean it made perfect sense for Shepard to be a little awkward, besides I was getting tired of him knowing exactly what to say all the time.



I don't know maybe I'm just less picky about this sort of thing. Either that or I don't get pissed off when the writers take a direction I don't like. Who knows.

[Iakus]

shadowhawk233 wrote...

And they do give you the benefit of the doubt once they've calmed down and have a chance to think things over. Ashley and Kaidan are shocked to see that you're still alive on Horizon and react purely emotionally - they aren't actually thinking, and Shepard can call them out on that. Hence the message they send you after Horizon, after they've adjusted to knowing for sure that you're still alive, when they apologize, acknowledge that you must be working with Cerberus for a good reason, trust you to be doing the right thing, and hope that they can work that kink in the relationship out when your job is done.

You only get thast letter if they're the LI from the last game.  Otherwise, you get nothing.

[TheComfyCat]

Like some others have said, I was fine with the VS's (Kaidan's, in my case) emotional reaction on Horizon, but I was annoyed with Shepard's dialogue options. I get that this isn't a role playing game like DA:O, and that we're not really RPing Shepard so much as steering his/ her methods/ actions. But c'mon. Give us something decent to work with.

I understand why the VS is angry, but shouldn't the relationship with the VS still seem fresh to Shepard? It seemed like she hardly cared about seeing Kaidan again. Or at least she didn't care about him as he did her. "OHAI. It's been a while. blah blah blah.. didn't want to re-open old wounds..." Ugh. Others have done some raging over the bad Shepard dialogue, though, and I definitely agree with them. It is possible to make the conversation less painful with the right dialogue choices, but nothing makes it good.

Anyway, I'm hoping the lack of DLC for the VS is because Bioware has big plans for them in ME3.

...hey, I can always hope, right?

Edit: Almost forgot to mention I agree with people's comments on how annoying it is that Kaidan/Ash were pretty much one person in ME2. I figured it was going to be like that the moment Kaidan ran out in Ash's armor during the first sequence, though (pink is not a good look for you, Kai). Hopefully they get better treatment in ME3. Would be nice if FemShep was separate from ManShep while they're at it.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 08 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I would like to quote Garrus here.
"God dammit Williams (or Kaidan), you're so focused on Cerberus you're ignoring the real threat!"
This is very true. What does it matter that they're Cerberus when first of all, Shepard is back; and second, the Reapers are threatening the Galaxy again? Also, the Ash/Kaidan keeps asking why you didn't contact them. It's like you're having a somewhat civilised ruinion and then as soon as the word "Cerberus" is said Ash/Kaidan goes into rage mode. This is even worse for Kaidan because it's nothing like him. I think the whole situation could've been averted if you just didn't mention Cerberus. I would've liked to point out the actions of the Council and Alliance to entire colonies dissapearing (in other words, no action).

I am very thankful that I never liked those two characters. If I had, I would've been so heartbroken. Same with reuniting with Liara (before DLC) to be honest. I'm thankful I wasn't a fan of her either. In fact, all the ones I liked had an awesome return (even Wrex, he's still the same badass with the same personality except now he's a leader. He doesn't have to join the squad to be good.)

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[DPSSOC]

senorfuzzylips wrote...
I understand why the VS is angry, but shouldn't the relationship with the VS still seem fresh to Shepard? It seemed like she hardly cared about seeing Kaidan again. Or at least she didn't care about him as he did her. "OHAI. It's been a while. blah blah blah.. didn't want to re-open old wounds..." Ugh. Others have done some raging over the bad Shepard dialogue, though, and I definitely agree with them. It is possible to make the conversation less painful with the right dialogue choices, but nothing makes it good.

This.  I mean it's not the easiest situation to explain to someone in the heat of the moment but I'm sure we could have done better than that.  Even an "I know how this looks and when the missions over I swear I'll explain." option would have been nice.

Especially if the VS was a romance I'd hope for a more heartfelt greeting (just as an option) than "Hey long time no see" or "You don't seem happy to see me."

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...
What does it matter that they're Cerberus when first of all, Shepard is back; and second, the Reapers are threatening the Galaxy again?

You have to accept that "I was brought back from the dead." isn't exactly the easiest thing to believe.  To them it looks like you hid for two years so you could run around with Cerberus doing who knows what.  Particularly if the VS was a romance they've had to deal with two years of your name being dragged through the muck, unable to say anything or do anything because it means the same for them, and the loss of any chance to honour Shepard in their own way, and they find out that when they needed you most you were having fun with "the enemy".  This makes Shepard seem like a coward at best and a traitor at worst.

[PauseforEffect]

Surely the VS knew Shepard had died, if not by witnessing it then by Joker's account who was the last person to see what happened. It just irks that especially if Shepard explains Cerberus brought him/her back from the dead, the VS isn't particularily affected by it. How is it they accept that it is Shepard brought back from the dead but not the why?