120 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Kurt]

Surely the VS aren't sure what they really know about anything. Seriously people, you trust too easily if you think Shepards story is at all believable for those left behind. But I agree that the writing wasn't top notch.

[Phaelducan]

Agreed that Shepard's responses were unrealistic, even if the VS wasn't your love interest and you couldn't care less about them. No option to tell the VS, and by proxy, the Alliance to kiss your Cerberus employed backside and get out of your face.



Just as important to cover that angle as the sappy stuff. Yeah, quiet Emo-Shep fails pretty big in that scene.

[RiouHotaru]

 ...Wow, Shepard's dialogue wasn't that bad, as long as you didn't stick exclusively to top-right or bottom-right choices.  And for the most part all the lines make sense.  Why?

Because really, is there ANY good way to break the ice after being dead for two years which went by in a flash in Shepard's eyes?  One minute you're on the Normandy being chucked into a space, and the next you're waking up in the Cerberus lab.  Really, the awkwardness of Shepard's first dialog options for greeting the VS are weird for a reason:  It's an awkward first meeting.

After that, it really depends.  Obviously the "I wasn't even conscious" line is a logical answer to the VS's "WHY DIDNT YOU CALL DAMMNT" upset-state.  But there's no way to avoid bringing up Cerberus, since the VS already had a tip from Alliance Command about the fact you were with Cerberus.  Even if the dialog allowed you to avoid mentioning them directly, they'd just call you on it anyway.

The best line for that confrontation comes from Shepard: "You know me Ash/Kaidan.  You know I would only do this for the right reasons."  This, for me, immediately brought back memories of those decisions made in the original ME, but nope, the VS won't be dissuaded from WMGing that you're a Cerberus Puppet of some kind.  And Garrus' line says it best:

"You're so focused on Cerberus you're missing the real threat!"

QFT, my turian bro.

Basically, I don't have any problem with the dialog itself, but the behavior of the VS is largely schizo.  They go from missing you, deeply if they're an LI, to being pissed you didn't call, then angry as heck and declaring you either a brainwashed puppet or a traitor.  I understand that they're upset and tensions are high, but at NO point do they take anything else into account.  It's a "Cerberus-or-Nothing" railroad that ends in a crash.

Honestly, I take no issue with Shepard's dialog because really, there's no smooth or diplomatic way about saying 'Hi' to someone after being clinically dead for part of two years, and then being completely comatose for the other part of those same two years.

I just feel the VS was unnaturally hostile.  I can understand upset and angry, but implying brainwashing or treason?  Uh, no.

[Phaelducan]

@Riou what you are talking about with the VS is a classic "all or nothing" thinking error. People do crap like that all the time when they are stressed out and not thinking rationally.



As to Shep's dialog, I felt that it was really missing a true renegade option there. Sure there was some residual loyalty (at least in theory) from the VS from ME1, but after they get in your face and jump your crap about this and that, it would have been realistic for there to be an option for renegade Shepard's to tell them to cram it in their cram hole.



Even more with Williams... as it is entirely possible that a Shep might not have liked her from the start (she wasn't on your ship, you were forced to bring her along, you can berate her from the start right after Eden Prime, and you certainly don't have to romance her). If she is the VS and your Shep literally can't stand her, why should you care at all about what she has to say about you or Cerberus?



That's just one example I know, but the options in that scene are pretty limited.

[RiouHotaru]

@Phaelducan: This is true, but sadly the writers/programmers/whoever put in the dialog had to choose a broader set of options, taking into account that not everyone played the first ME.



But I get what you're saying. And yeah, the Cerberus-focused fixation is what people like to refer to as a "False Dichotomy." Presenting someone with two mutually exclusive choices where a third is/should be present.

[Phaelducan]

That is one of the challenges of a cinematic role playing game like ME2. Bioware strives to be ultra-realistic in so many ways, that at times I'd catch myself saying "BS, no way does that go down like that."



It's hard to have partially scripted scenes like that and not have the occassional hole or missing dialog option. For what it's worth though, I got over it immediately and didn't think the game suffered for it. It was just definitely noticeable.

[RiouHotaru]

I noticed the fact that Ash's eyes went incredibly wonky when she talked about the "Alliance tip" and she did a full-blown nosedive into the uncanny valley with that herp-durp face for a second. It was incredibly jarring, disturbing, and hilarious. Thank god it only happens there.

[Commander Kurt]

RiouHotaru wrote...
I just feel the VS was unnaturally hostile.  I can understand upset and angry, but implying brainwashing or treason?  Uh, no.

Why are those alternatives harder to believe than resurrection?

I'm not saying it's impossible, I could probably get away with a thing like that, but I doubt Shep is that good in the sack..

[RiouHotaru]

Because you were vented into space last they knew? The only thing they didn't find was a body and there was no way in heck you were rescued that quickly.



Besides, an anonymous billionaire pumps over four billion credits [and that's OVERBUDGET] into the finest in cutting edge manpower and tech to put you back together. In a setting like ME that's not entirely disbelieveable.



Also, the treason implication is especially heinous because it implies free will on Shepard's part. That you actively, knowingly, malciously left to spite the Alliance and do their interests harm

[Commander Kurt]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Because you were vented into space last they knew? The only thing they didn't find was a body and there was no way in heck you were rescued that quickly.

Besides, an anonymous billionaire pumps over four billion credits [and that's OVERBUDGET] into the finest in cutting edge manpower and tech to put you back together. In a setting like ME that's not entirely disbelieveable.

Also, the treason implication is especially heinous because it implies free will on Shepard's part. That you actively, knowingly, malciously left to spite the Alliance and do their interests harm

Yeah, people survive against impossible odds. They fake their own death. They aren't resurrected though. It doesn't happen.

And, of course, here it does. I bet it's still less reoccuring than amazing survival stories and faked deaths in the ME universe, and thus harder to believe.

Same thing about treason. It exists. It's sad, but people do stuff like that. They even lie about it and pretend to be good guys. I'm serious, if you ever find yourself in a situation where the only possible explanation is that a loved one has either betrayed you or has been resurrected from the dead, it's time to start yelling (and walking).

[Iakus]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Yeah, people survive against impossible odds. They fake their own death. They aren't resurrected though. It doesn't happen.

And, of course, here it does. I bet it's still less reoccuring than amazing survival stories and faked deaths in the ME universe, and thus harder to believe.

Same thing about treason. It exists. It's sad, but people do stuff like that. They even lie about it and pretend to be good guys. I'm serious, if you ever find yourself in a situation where the only possible explanation is that a loved one has either betrayed you or has been resurrected from the dead, it's time to start yelling (and walking).

Whether Shepard was rescued or ressurected, there's bound to be a story behind it, given what happened to the Normandy.  Now, after proving to be not-dead in a dramatic rescue of a colony from mysterious aliens and confirming the rumors of your existence, wouldn't the appropriate question be "How are you alive?" rather than "Why haven't you called?"

As for treason:  like I said, barring some very disturbing reports concerning his activities with Cerberus, the VS should find that very hard to believe.  In ME 1 Shepard may have led his squad against several Cerberus bases, killing dozens of agents, disrupting several experiments.  To find Shep suddenly working side-by-side with them, again, "Why?" is the Big Question.  Like if Shepard were to find Tali working with the geth.  Wouldn't you want to know how that came around?

[RiouHotaru]

Iakus is right. Even assuming they suspected you were alive due to TIM dropping hints, you'd still think it'd be more of a shock.

[Darth_Ultima]

I did not have any problem with Horizon. It felt totally natural to me. I told Ashley that I was dead and that Cerberus had brought me back. I had a perfectly good explanation for working with Cerberus and I had Garrus with me too. If a Turian is willing to work with human supremacists then you had better believe that it is for a good reason. But alas Ashley acted like a wench and gave me all the reason I needed to bang Miranda. Screw the Alliance and the council anyway for calling me crazy and misguided.

[Zulu_DFA]

The main problem with the VS cameo is that it's there just for the sake of cameo. VS could have been left out of ME2 altogether and nothing would've changed. Damn fan service.

That said, I don't think it was bad at all, although some harsher options than "I see you ain't gonna listen to reason" from Shepard's side would've been welcome.

But VS has a backbone and a life of their own, unlike Garrus and Tali. So yeah... I love to hate Ashley now.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Iakus]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

I did not have any problem with Horizon. It felt totally natural to me. I told Ashley that I was dead and that Cerberus had brought me back. I had a perfectly good explanation for working with Cerberus and I had Garrus with me too. If a Turian is willing to work with human supremacists then you had better believe that it is for a good reason. But alas Ashley acted like a wench and gave me all the reason I needed to bang Miranda. Screw the Alliance and the council anyway for calling me crazy and misguided.

And thus we have what I suspect was  the real reason the writers made the VS so irrationally hostile

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The main problem with the VS cameo is that it's there just for the sake of cameo. VS could have been left out of ME2 altogether and nothing would've changed. Damn fan service.

Having a character appear just so they could (figuratively) spit in Shepard's eye may be a useless cameo, but I wouldn't call it "fan service".  Just sayin.

[DPSSOC]

iakus wrote...
Whether Shepard was rescued or ressurected, there's bound to be a story behind it, given what happened to the Normandy.  Now, after proving to be not-dead in a dramatic rescue of a colony from mysterious aliens and confirming the rumors of your existence, wouldn't the appropriate question be "How are you alive?" rather than "Why haven't you called?"

Someone you know well disappears for two years and then shows up out of the blue.  The foremost question for most people is going to be, "Where the !@#$ have you been?"  The question of how you're alive is largely irrellevant next to the question of where the hell you've been for the past two years.  How you're alive is easy to answer (from the VS point of view) you obviously never died, meaning you faked your death, meaning you've been hiding for two years, with Cerberus, TRAITOR!  What really bothers me is that everyone but the VS take your return in stride.  I'm sorry if you disappear for two years I don't care how happy people are to have you back they're going to have question.  Nobody, not Anderson, Garrus, Tali, Wrex the Council, etc. ever questions you on your return they just shrug and move on.

Am I the only one who thinks it's telling of the idiocy of the people we're dealing with (IU) that Aria is more skeptical about your identity than Anderson or the Council who, without any questions or scans or tests, will reinstate you as a Spectre.

iakus wrote...
As for treason:  like I said, barring some very disturbing reports concerning his activities with Cerberus, the VS should find that very hard to believe.

Alliance intel has received information suggesting Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus, Shepard shows up, alive, and working with Cerberus.  Observation confirms hypothesis.  It's similar to being found holding a bloody knife while standing over the victim of a stabbing; unless you've got one hell of an attorney you're going to jail.

iakus wrote...
In ME 1 Shepard may have led his squad against several Cerberus bases, killing dozens of agents, disrupting several experiments.  To find Shep suddenly working side-by-side with them, again, "Why?" is the Big Question.  Like if Shepard were to find Tali working with the geth.  Wouldn't you want to know how that came around?

Again the question is irrellevant (to them).  You are working for Cerberus, Cerberus is an enemy of the Council and the Alliance, you are working for the enemy, you are a traitor.  Any reason you may give as to why is nothing more than you trying to justify your betrayal (again to them).

[TheComfyCat]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The main problem with the VS cameo is that it's there just for the sake of cameo. VS could have been left out of ME2 altogether and nothing would've changed. Damn fan service.

That said, I don't think it was bad at all, although some harsher options than "I see you ain't gonna listen to reason" from Shepard's side would've been welcome.

But VS has a backbone and a life of their own, unlike Garrus and Tali. So yeah... I love to hate Ashley now.

Well, I don't think it's really a cameo for the sake of a cameo. The VS conceivably played a big role in ME1, and it wouldn't have made much sense for them not to show up at all (especially if they were romanced). ME is a trilogy, and leaving the VS out of ME2 entirely wouldn't have made sense when looking at the story as a whole.

DPSSOC wrote...

Alliance intel has received information suggesting Shepard is alive and
working with Cerberus, Shepard shows up, alive, and working with
Cerberus.  Observation confirms hypothesis.  It's similar to being found
holding a bloody knife while standing over the victim of a stabbing;
unless you've got one hell of an attorney you're going to jail.

I agree with DPSSOC. It seems like the VS was kept in the dark about Shepard as much as Shepard was about them. They were emotional, and it's understandable that they jumped to conclusions when seeing Shepard again. As for the fact that they didn't ask why you're with Cerberus, especially after the "you know I'd only do this for the right reasons" line... well, in Kaidan's email, after he's had some time to calm down and think about things, he does seem to realize that Shepard probably is doing the right thing.

Perhaps their reaction can't be justified quite as well if they weren't romanced, though. Ash's maybe, but it's much harder to get Kaidan that upset. Of course, I don't imagine there's many people that would see Kaidan on Horizon if they didn't romance him... guys seem much more likely to save Ash even if they don't romance her.

[Iakus]

DPSSOC wrote...

Someone you know well disappears for two years and then shows up out of the blue.  The foremost question for most people is going to be, "Where the !@#$ have you been?"  The question of how you're alive is largely irrellevant next to the question of where the hell you've been for the past two years.  How you're alive is easy to answer (from the VS point of view) you obviously never died, meaning you faked your death, meaning you've been hiding for two years, with Cerberus, TRAITOR!  What really bothers me is that everyone but the VS take your return in stride.  I'm sorry if you disappear for two years I don't care how happy people are to have you back they're going to have question.  Nobody, not Anderson, Garrus, Tali, Wrex the Council, etc. ever questions you on your return they just shrug and move on.

My response would be "How'd you get off the Normandy?  I saw it destroyed, Joker said he saw you get spaced!"  Given teh circumstances around the destruction of teh Normandy, which the VS personally witnessed, Sheps' survival was unlikely at best. 

Next question would be "Where have you been for two years?" Because, as you said, Shepard being there means that Shep somehow survived.  When faced with the (apparantly) impossible, the more likely question seems to be "How" more than "Why" 

You ask the magician how the rabbit got into the hat, rather than why he's been walking around with a rabbit in his hat.

And yes, it took LOTSB to finally get someone to ask my Shep how he's handling things.  It's one example of how insular this game is.  Nothing that happens really impacts on anything else.  The game is wide, but not deep.

Am I the only one who thinks it's telling of the idiocy of the people we're dealing with (IU) that Aria is more skeptical about your identity than Anderson or the Council who, without any questions or scans or tests, will reinstate you as a Spectre.

It's one example of it, yes.  I can name many others, but that's for other threads.

iakus wrote...
Alliance intel has received information suggesting Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus, Shepard shows up, alive, and working with Cerberus.  Observation confirms hypothesis.  It's similar to being found holding a bloody knife while standing over the victim of a stabbing; unless you've got one hell of an attorney you're going to jail.

Shepard must have one heck of an attorney, because he's already a confirmed mutineer.  So is the VS.  That didn't make him a traitor though. That made him the Savior of the Citadel.  It never occurs to the VS, however, that this might be a similar circumstance?

A man gets hit on the head with a hammer.  Is it comedy or horror?  Three Stooges or Stephen King?  Context matters.  Ash/Kaiden should know that given they followed Shep every step of teh way from Eden Prime on.

Again the question is irrellevant (to them).  You are working for Cerberus, Cerberus is an enemy of the Council and the Alliance, you are working for the enemy, you are a traitor.  Any reason you may give as to why is nothing more than you trying to justify your betrayal (again to them).

Actually, it should be relevant.  What could change someone from actively fighting against an organization to cooperating with them?  Barring extraordinary circumstances.  Being threatened, deep undercover, indoctrinated, or, as Shepard (and to a lesser extent, Garrus) say, there's an even bigger threat out there that we were fighting against two years ago. 

Modifié par iakus, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Am I the only one who thinks it's telling of the idiocy of the people we're dealing with (IU) that Aria is more skeptical about your identity than Anderson or the Council who, without any questions or scans or tests, will reinstate you as a Spectre.

Bailey scans you when you step onto the Citadel and tells the Council.



As for Horizon, my resounding feelings of "meh" towards both Virmire Survivors meant that I didn't care a whole lot either way. It's unfortunate that I can't get their help, but... well, it's their own loss.

[Lunatic LK47]

iakus wrote
Shepard must have one heck of an attorney, because he's already a confirmed mutineer.  So is the VS.  That didn't make him a traitor though. That made him the Savior of the Citadel.  It never occurs to the VS, however, that this might be a similar circumstance?

A man gets hit on the head with a hammer.  Is it comedy or horror?  Three Stooges or Stephen King?  Context matters.  Ash/Kaiden should know that given they followed Shep every step of teh way from Eden Prime on.

Bolded for emphasis.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 12 décembre 2010 - 01:10 .