27 réponses à ce sujet

[Krasnoludek666555]

While i really enjoyed the whole "grayness" of the Orzammar quest (lesser evil and such things, good man/bad king vs bad man/good king) the thing that really pissed me off was the black-and-whiteness of the Anvil of the Void quest.

I mean, really? Dwarves are already doomed and the only guy that could save them is like "meh, i dunno. I had bad dreams last time when i did it, so i better kill myself and destroy dwarves' last chance for survival". Yea, the whole golem-making process was rather unpleasent (anyone enjoys being killed by having molten lava and lyrium poured intro your guts and onto your body? ) but there would be a PLENTY of volounteers (Legion of the Dead and some of the casteless) that would submit themselves to that if they knew that they can save Orzammar. 

Think of this : If you made Harrowmont king and gave Anvil of the Void to CARIDIN, who would only accept volonteers (and Harrowmont would only give him volonteers cause aside of being noble and thus looking with contempt at the casteless, he's generally good and honorable dwarf), the Dwarven Empire would be revived and everyone (well, except casteless. But you can't have everything) would be happy.

And even if not this, then i still think that killing himself is such was was cowardly. I think that if Caridin wanted to die, he should throw himself at Darkspawn and kill as many of them as he could before being crushed by some ogre.

And what do YOU think of this?

[IanPolaris]

Harrowmount is the LAST Dwarf King you should hand the Anvil over too. Harrowmount as King with the Anvil leads dwarves to raid surfaces for "golem raw material" which forces the rest of the world against the dwarves sealing them away forever.



If you want to kill off the dwarves, choose Harrowmount as King and save the Anvil.



That said, I think the correct (albeit likely 'evil') Grey Warden decision is to save the Anvil. The Anvil gives Orzammar the best chance to fight off the darkspawn and given the choice between slavery and annihilation, slavery is better every time...and it need not come to that.



In short, I don't think this is black and white at all.



-Polaris

[TheLegendofWade]

I almost agree with all of it.



I really think the Anvil of the Void situation could have been handled better. Yet, this is under ideal conditions that all of this potentially good things could have arisen. I think the main thing to take away from Caridin is that eventually people will get desperate despite their intentions - eventually, the dwarven king would just start forcing people into service once again, and if Caridin refused to comply--another "siege" on the anvil and another repetition of history (Caridin was turned into a golem).



It's about learning from history. I think with specific stipulations, the Anvil could have been used in a "good" way for at least a hundred years or so...but, if things became more desperate or lineages/people change, so may their ideas of what is "good." Then they risk forced servitude, once again.



And, the Epilogue does show us that history repeats itself (I can't speak for Harrowmont + Golem slide...), as Bhelen started forcing subjects and when Branka refuses to assist him (for different reasons that Caridin), Bhelen launches a siege on the Void.



Food for thought, I guess.

[Krasnoludek666555]

@IanPolaris

Hmm. But i was not talking about what HAPPENS in the game. Becouse that what you said actually happens, but it isn't like that, cause it is Harrowmont indeed who REFUSES to give more dwarves to the Anvil and then BRANKA stars to raiding the surface.

I was thinking about how stupid it was from Caridin to just kill himself. If he would maintain the Anvil, he surely wouldn't raid the surface, and thus golems would be only made from volonteers, and there wouldn't even be any slavery.

Modifié par Krasnoludek666555, 06 décembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Sabariel]

After reading "Caradin's Journal" I could no longer save the Anvil. It's just... wow.

[testing123]

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...
I was thinking about how stupid it was from Caridin to just kill himself. If he would maintain the Anvil, he surely wouldn't raid the surface, and thus golems would be only made from volonteers, and there wouldn't even be any slavery.

Well, Caridin didn't want to maintain the Anvil because he considered it too dangerous for mortal hands.  Clearly he has his reasons for believing this; despite his own best efforts the Anvil was abused by those in power, even transforming Caridin himself into a golem.  I imagine going through the process himself changed his perspective quite a bit.

Can anyone truly volunteer for such an experiment?  Becoming a golem isn't just about the excruciating pain of the transformation, but the eternity of servitude.  Can any volunteer really comprehend what an eternity with a permanent lack of autonomy would mean for them?  There is no returning to the stone, the fade, not even nothingness.  Just a permanent existence in slavery.  Even if you wanted to sacrifice yourself for the cause of saving your fellow dwarves in the moment, you would have an eternity to regret the decision and do absolutely nothing about it because you have no free will.  The problem isn't the actual decision to sacrifice yourself, it's the anguished immortality of the 'forever after.'

I assume that after a few hundred years of living that life himself, Caridin decided he wouldn't wish it on anyone, even potential volunteers.  He determined that the Anvil was too dangerous and must be destroyed because mortals are not capable of using it responsibly, if there even is such a thing as using a 'golem-forge' responsibly.

[GodWood]

Hanz54321 wrote...
But sooner or later the Anvil will NOT save Orzamar . . . it will enslave it.

Yes, because dwarven society was much better once they lost the anvil.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

So what about the control rods? Will the new golems be forced to obey or given free will?

If the golems are free, how will volunteers be screened to ensure they won't abuse the massive strength their new forms will give them? Can you imagine a small horde of Shales running amok?

And if they are not free, what's to stop Orzammar eventually selling/gifting golems like they did last time, as though they are property?

[Wulfram]

Branka can make control rods, it seems. She uses one in the battle, if you side against her.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I have little doubt Branka would make control rods. Caridin on the other hand? I doubt it. He tried to destroy them all after he went under the hammer and it's unlikely he'd enslave any more.

[bleetman]

I preserved the anvil for Bhelen, myself. I'd no illusions that he'd eventually use it the same way Valtor did, forcing it upon his enemies. But as far as I was concerned, that just means he's using it well.

Yes, I know, heartless monster and all that. It certainly isn't fair to force such sacrifices upon people against their own will. And yet, a certain surfacer order has been doing just that for hundreds of years, because the alternative is extinction. Y'can't debate ethics if you're all dead.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I' have prefered to save the anvil and give it to the Shaperate in Orzammar rather than Branka using it, but alas, you can't. The Anvil is a very grey area in itself, but I didn't care for the only options being to destroy it or let some mad dwarven cow play with it.

[DPSSOC]

bleetman wrote...
It certainly isn't fair to force such sacrifices upon people against their own will. And yet, a certain surfacer order has been doing just that for hundreds of years, because the alternative is extinction. Y'can't debate ethics if you're all dead.

Slight difference (I assume you're referring to the Wardens) though.  When you join you don't lose your free will to some nutter with a stick, you don't become property, you have the power to choose, to disobey orders if you disagree with them.  A Golem has no such power.

[bleetman]

Do you? You're taken away from your old life, in virtually all cases never to return. Most die from the joining, and those fortunate enough to survive are pressed into a life of fighting darkspawn until they eventually kill, leaving you to rot underground a thousands of miles from home. Being recruited is a death sentance, it just sometimes takes longer to kick in.

But no, they're not exactly the same, of course. My point is more that they do what they have to, because there's no other choice. Dwarves as a race are dying a slow, inevitable death. The anvil isn't a miracle cure for all their darkspawn ailments, but it can sure as hell help. Whoever comes next can decide whether it's justified. At least they'll be around to debate it.

Modifié par bleetman, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:24 .

[Micon2]

The choices you Can make are not fair if you play a dwarf (esp a noble), I mean Bhelen framed you , murdered your father , got you exiled cause he was smarter at dwarven political intrigue and (in the game ) , you cannot win against him. Bioware has wrongly set this so Bhelen gives the dwarves the best outcome, however choosing Harrowmont and getting him to adopt your offspring....as future king is my choice. Its like saving Loghain! or sparing Anora I will not, that is my moral choice.

I often save the anvil but not if I have Shale with me! The dwarves are only going to recreate the anvil and suffer from their inability to do this properly, so why not let them have it working well!.

[Manton-X2]

This was actually the toughest choice in the game for me. Yea, when I played a highly moral character the choice was easy, but when I played a more pragmatic human rogue character, this took a lot of thinking. At the core of who I am personally, saving the anvil isn't an option. It'd be like handing a a stockpile of tactical nukes to some 10th century ruler.

But take the emotional side out of it, the Dwarves are in war of attrition that they can not win and can not withdraw from. Their whole civilization is on the front lines and the Darkspawn are breeding unbelievably faster than the Dwarves. They've already been reduced to one single Thaig and are literally approaching extinction.

The golems are probably their only chance to avoid being wiped out. And once the Dwarves are wiped out, there's not much else to stop the surface from experiencing non-ending Darkspawn incursions and blights.

And even knowing all that, I still want to destroy the anvil, but my rogue saved it and let the decision be judged by history.

Modifié par Manton-X2, 12 décembre 2010 - 07:27 .

[asaiasai]

The dwarves are not a dying race because they lack the anvil they are a dying race because thier culture is a destructive or at least an exclusionary one. The dwarves are a dying race because they choose to disregard the lives of the casteless. Thier slow agonizing death is a deserved one because they themselves do not respect thier existence or only respect a certain groups based entirely on a random mix of genetic code, a genetic lottery so to speak. If you do not respect yourself it can not be a suprise when no one else does either. Thier lives are decided by a genetic lottery, mom is Smith caste and dad is castless, and baby is a boy and considered garbage. It is for that reason i condem the anvil to destruction it is that reason why the dwarves deserve thier fate, it is the main reason i damn them to thier fate by destroying the anvil. Until they respect all of thier children regardless of whether they hit the genetic lottery or not the dwarves deserve to be extinct.

Now as i have established the dwarves have little regard for life it is not a stretch to assume that eventually some douche as was so eloquently pointed out will come along and start forcing the transformation on any who those in power deem sub human. The whole idea of control rods is another reason handing the anvil to a race as incompetent and irresponsible as the dwarves is a very large mistake regardless of the short term gains. As commander Shepard tells TIM in the end of ME2 "we will win this war but i will not sell our souls to do it". My wardens are not blinded by expediency right is right wrong is wrong and most often the correct decision means a more difficult road, but there is some satisfaction to be gained from it.

I have 22 characters and not a single one of them has ever spared the anvil, Caradin gets his release, the anvil gets a smack, and the dwarves are not provided with quick fix to thier troubles. They need to mature as a race, learn to respect thier potential man power pool (as Bhelen will if you put him on the throne) but under no circumstances have the dwarves earned the trust that would be required for any of my wardens to allow them the potential of the anvil.

As the decision is mine i will sacrifice thousands of Human, Dwarven and Dailish lives rather than allow myself or them to be a part of the greatest mistake in Thedas history. Sure the anvil would make the fight easier, but those lives are a cost i am willing to pay, not to be associated with the mass enslavement of a people, you will pay the cost in lives now or later at least by paying up front i avoid the interest. My wardens talk the talk and walk the walk and are always the first up the hill and the last off. Even though my wardens are animate they are still dead so spending lives while as abhorant as that sounds my wardens are all in the expendable pile along with every other soldier on the battlefield.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 12 décembre 2010 - 10:43 .

[Arthur Cousland]

I can only see saving the anvil if my warden was a dwarf and they thought it was the only way to take back the deep roads from the darkspawn. As a human or elf, it is much easier to side with Caridin and destroy the anvil.



The dwarves make progress against the darkspawn with Bhelen as king, even without the golems, though during this point in the story, the warden doesn't know what the future will bring, regarding the anvil and future golems.

[ArawnNox]

Taking meta knowledge out of it for a bit, what do you really know when you get to the anvil.
You know that Branka sacrificed her whole house to recover it.
You know that Behlen, politically, is a radical progressive.
You know that Harrowmont, conversely, is a staunch traditionalist.
You know that the Anvil's power was abused by leaders in the past.
You know that Branka is off her freaking nut.
You've seen, first hand, that Orzammar is collapsing under it's own caste structure.
Not to mention whatever moral compass you're warden feels.

I think it's only black and white in retrospect, because we don't find out about it's consiquences until the epilogue. Taking only what your character knows at that moment, when they have to decide, it's a bit more ambiguous. I destroyed it my first full game because I felt that Branka couldn't be trusted with it.

[Face of Evil]

bleetman wrote...

Dwarves as a race are dying a slow, inevitable death. The anvil isn't a miracle cure for all their darkspawn ailments, but it can sure as hell help.

The problem is that the Anvil of the Void will only hasten the destruction of Orzammar. You've accepted that Bhelen will force unwilling dwarves to become golems, but you haven't taken into account the inevitable power struggle that will result over control of the Anvil. Just as Caridin opposed his king, Branka will come to odds with Bhelen over the use of the Anvil and a war will break out between the two sides, a war that the dwarves cannot afford to fight.

Caridin knows full well the threat that the darkspawn pose to the dwarves, but he recognizes that it is simply too powerful not to be abused.

[bleetman]

The man's been trapped for centuries in the body of a golem, stewing in his own remorse. I got the sense his objections are based less on 'inevitable power struggle' and more 'people have to die horribly and so forth for it to work, the price is too high'.



You're quite right, of course. They do have a power struggle over control of it. But ultimately, if they're too stubborn and foolish to use their own technology without breaking out into civil war, that's their own damn fault. They decided on a food fight, I just set the table, so to speak.

[IanPolaris]

bleetman wrote...

The man's been trapped for centuries in the body of a golem, stewing in his own remorse. I got the sense his objections are based less on 'inevitable power struggle' and more 'people have to die horribly and so forth for it to work, the price is too high'.

Precisely and this is why more and more especially acting as a Grey Warden of the Duncan type, I am inclined to save the Anvil.  I can not tell what will happen in the future, but I do know that the Orzammar and the Grey Wardens are stronger with the Anvil than without it.  As for it requiring horrible deaths, better that some should die (esp if you use volunteers) than everyone die.  While Bhelen might be ruthless, I don't think he'd have a shortage of volunteers to become golems even if everyone were told the price.

It's Harrowmount not Bhelen that messes things up royally with the Anvil because Harrowmount believes dwarves are "too good" to sacrifice to the anvil but won't give up the power.

-Polaris