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[SSV Enterprise]

JediMB wrote...

Atheism is not a belief. It's rejection of belief in gods, and related concepts.

Usually due to insufficient or nonexistent verifiable evidence.

Nope.  While not structured like the popular conception of religion, atheism requires beliefs that cannot be or have not been proved empirically.  Most notably, one must have faith that life formed randomly.  Nowhere in recorded history has such an process been observed.  As an extension, one must have faith that a series of random mutations somehow built up to what we are today, despite the fact that there has not been any random mutation ever observed that provides new, beneficial traits to the organism.  Also, the belief that matter just emerged randomly from nothing cannot be proven either.

The very definition of "faith" is belief in something without empirical evidence.  Atheism requires such belief, therefore it is a faith.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 08 décembre 2010 - 07:55 .

[JediMB]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Atheism is not a belief. It's rejection of belief in gods, and related concepts.

Usually due to insufficient or nonexistent verifiable evidence.

Nope.  While not structured like the popular conception of religion, atheism requires beliefs that cannot be or have not been proved empirically.  Most notably, one must have faith that life formed randomly.  Nowhere in recorded history has such an process been observed.  As an extension, one must have faith that a series of random mutations somehow built up to what we are today, despite the fact that there has not been any random mutation ever observed that provides new, beneficial traits to the organism.  Also, the belief that matter just emerged randomly from nothing cannot be proven either.

The very definition of "faith" is belief in something without empirical evidence.  Atheism requires such belief, therefore it is a faith.

Sorry, but atheism and the theory of evolution are separate things, and neither requires faith.

Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not cover how life originally emerged. An atheist can, however, simply say that "I do not know how life on Earth originally formed, and I choose not to believe anything on the matter." Neither evolution nor atheism requires you to have any belief regarding the origin of the universe either.

A well-documented, beneficial random mutation is the yellow banana tree. That variation of the tree has become quite dominant because of the fruit's appeal to humans.

[Katamariguy]

aeetos21 wrote...


still others literally couldn't cope with the new existence of alien species at all and their heads literally exploded and those religions went the way of the dinosaur.

Such as those preachers who believe that the very idea that aliens exist is the work of the devil.

[Aigyl]

The Christianity of the Mass Effect universe would be different from today's I'd imagine, any human-centric teachings would have probably gone out the window (eg. any beliefs that only humans have souls or can achieve salvation, unless you believe aliens don't have souls but humans do...), or only carry on through people that have rejected reality.

I actually kinda like Ashley not stating if she belongs to any particular religion though - I guess the real reason is that Bioware wants to dodge controversy, same reason why no-one asks Shepard what happens when you die, but hey you don't need to believe in a religion to believe in God after all, different paths to the same end and all that.

Ashley's belief seems to stem from wonder and amazement at the universe and how this cannot possibly exist due to mere chance rather than any religious teaching, more an emotional belief than something based on logic, though this is just my take on what little dialogue she has on the subject.

/end rambling post

[Sinapus]

Aigyl wrote...
I actually kinda like Ashley not stating if she belongs to any particular religion though - I guess the real reason is that Bioware wants to dodge controversy, same reason why no-one asks Shepard what happens when you die, but hey you don't need to believe in a religion to believe in God after all, different paths to the same end and all that.

Elvis made Shepard promise not to tell, so he/she can't really answer that question.

[Aigyl]

Sinapus wrote...

Aigyl wrote...
I actually kinda like Ashley not stating if she belongs to any particular religion though - I guess the real reason is that Bioware wants to dodge controversy, same reason why no-one asks Shepard what happens when you die, but hey you don't need to believe in a religion to believe in God after all, different paths to the same end and all that.

Elvis made Shepard promise not to tell, so he/she can't really answer that question.

Of course! It all makes sense now! *ticks off plot inconsistency*

[Urazz]

From what I remember of Ash's discusssion about religion in ME1. I was under the impression that most of humanity is either agnostic or athiests at that point in time due to the discovery of the prothean site on mars damaging established religions.

[sentient Aegis]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

SSV Enterprise wrote...
EDIT: @Sinapus:  Nice reference. What I especially like about that quote is that it implies that atheism is itself a belief, rather than simply being the absence of belief.  To say there is no God requires just as much faith as saying that there is a God.

And to say there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster requires just as much faith as saying that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

May pasta sauce be upon him......

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's no real conclusive evidence that humanity is mostly atheist or agnostic in the 22nd century, only that Ashley has met a lot people who were. Which technically is something that could happen today.

I suppose you could infer from that statement that religion is mostly gone but I think that would be a big leap. I don't think it nesscarily follows from the other things we know in Mass Effect.

I don't see why the discovery of alien relics on Mars would have that effect on religion as a whole on Earth. I also don't know why the knowledge of aliens would only cause humans to abandon religion and not the other species in the galaxy like the asari or drell.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[SSV Enterprise]

JediMB wrote...

Sorry, but atheism and the theory of evolution are separate things, and neither requires faith.

Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not cover how life originally emerged. An atheist can, however, simply say that "I do not know how life on Earth originally formed, and I choose not to believe anything on the matter." Neither evolution nor atheism requires you to have any belief regarding the origin of the universe either.

Did I say anything specific about evolution?  No. 

You seem to be confusing agnosticism and atheism.  The agnostic is the one who says "I don't know, so I do not believe anything on the matter".  The atheist says "I believe that there is no God".  That belief, in order to be rational, requires belief in methods for life to develop randomly -- whether or not that method is evolution.

A well-documented, beneficial random mutation is the yellow banana tree. That variation of the tree has become quite dominant because of the fruit's appeal to humans.

A color change.  A color change.

What, are black people mutants now?

(Ok, that's quite a bit extreme.  But my point is, that doesn't seem like much of a mutation to me at all)

[CroGamer002]

Earth still has many religions.

[JediMB]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Did I say anything specific about evolution?  No. 

"As an extension, one must have faith that a series of random mutations
somehow built up to what we are today, despite the fact that there has
not been any random mutation ever observed that provides new, beneficial
traits to the organism."

SSV Enterprise wrote...

You seem to be confusing agnosticism and atheism.  The agnostic is the one who says "I don't know, so I do not believe anything on the matter".  The atheist says "I believe that there is no God".  That belief, in order to be rational, requires belief in methods for life to develop randomly -- whether or not that method is evolution.

An agnostic might say "no human could possibly know whether or not there are gods or other deities."

An atheist might say "I do not believe there are gods, because there is no evidence to support such a claim".

Atheism stems from a lack of belief in what he or she considers an irrational idea. It does not require that person to subscribe to any specific theories, nor is he or she irrational for admitting that there are things we do not know for certain.

Finally, a lesson from the dictionary:

"theism" : Belief in the existence of one or more deities.
"a-" : Forming words denoting absence or lack

Hence, atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of one or more deities.

SSV Enterprise wrote...

A color change.  A color change.

What, are black people mutants now?

(Ok, that's quite a bit extreme.  But my point is, that doesn't seem like much of a mutation to me at all)

*sighs*

The wild (red and green) bananas are vastly different from the domesticated yellow kind, and are cooked before they're eaten. They also have a very different shape, closer to more traditional fruit.

A banana tree bearing the yellow fruit we know and love was a random mutation of the trees bearing the less edible kinds, and all domesticated banana trees in existence are the ancestors (propagated asexually from offshoots) of that tree.

EDIT: And, for the record, all forms of humans are, strictly speaking, mutants. People in different parts of the world have undergone (and, most importantly, passed on to their offspring) different mutations, many of which have been beneficial in the environments they populate. However, black people are an awful example to use mostly because it is the lighter skin that deviated from the previous dark-skinned norm. :EDIT

This is as much as I'll say on the matter. There are better places to seek knowledge on these subjects, if you honestly want to have a proper understanding of them, and I'd rather not continue keeping this thread off its original topic.

Modifié par JediMB, 08 décembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Bogsnot1]

Grand Admiral Wong wrote...
(snip)
then again, as mentioned in the Codex, some Turians have even embraced some Earth religions such as Zen Buddhism. (snip)

Buddhism is not a religion, it is a philosophy. It has become a religion due to ignorance from other religions not recognising it for what it is.
A person can be an atheist and a buddhist. Try and claim that with any other "religion".

[GodWood]

Buddhism incorporates a number of supernatural beliefs into its teachings, one being karma; the belief that the effects of a person's actions determine their destiny and their next incarnation.
The text book definition of religion is: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Its a religion.

Modifié par GodWood, 10 décembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Bogsnot1]

Sorry to disagree, but;



Buddhism

Origins

Buddhism is based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, who came to be called the Buddha or “enlightened one”. Gautama was born into a wealthy family near the border of modern India and Nepal in 563 BC. Confronted by the reality of ageing, sickness and death, he left his rich home at 29, and spent seven years travelling India as an ascetic. Substituting meditation for physical self-punishment, he was sitting under a fig-tree (boddhi tree) when he had his first three enlightened revelations.



Gautama did not envisage himself as establishing a religion. Buddhists have no belief in higher deities, but propose a path towards freedom from suffering, or individual enlightenment, through deep reflection on the nature of existence. This focus on self-redemption makes it qualitatively quite different from other belief systems which base themselves around concepts of divine mercy or grace.

[Sina84]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

EDIT: @Sinapus:  Nice reference. What I especially like about that quote is that it implies that atheism is itself a belief, rather than simply being the absence of belief.  To say there is no God requires just as much faith as saying that there is a God.

I take it you're a Christian, meaning you don't believe in Allah, Buddah, Zeus, Thor or any of the other millions of gods and goddesses people have believed in over the ages, but you don't call your indifference to all those other dieties a belief, now do you? Think about how much weight you give some 5000 year old African Lion spirit people used to worship back in the day. That is how people of no belief feel about your particular god, so you should be able to sympathize with the idea.

There's a gigantic pink unicorn living in the sun, and believing there isn't a gigantic pink unicorn living in the sun takes just as much faith as believing there is? Just to give you an idea of what you sound like.

And just to get this straight and see where you're coming from, do you not believe evolution is real? Is the universe 6000-10000 years old?

[Katamariguy]

Oh great, this has become a religion debate. Here comes Pacifien.

[JediMB]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Grand Admiral Wong wrote...
(snip)
then again, as mentioned in the Codex, some Turians have even embraced some Earth religions such as Zen Buddhism. (snip)

Buddhism is not a religion, it is a philosophy. It has become a religion due to ignorance from other religions not recognising it for what it is.
A person can be an atheist and a buddhist. Try and claim that with any other "religion".

Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, going by the dictionary definition of the word. ("religion") Or, well, is supposed to be, although some buddhists do see Buddha as a deity, despite that they really shouldn't.

Yes, you can be atheist and buddhist at the same time, since belief in buddhism (or at least its spiritual worth) doesn't require belief in any god, just like you can simultaneously hold belief in buddhism and any theist religion that doesn't contradict the buddhist philosophies and truths.

But, anyway... I find the idea of turian buddhists amusing, as they tend to be known more as people of action and duty than spirituality. But then again, maybe that's exactly why the religion appealed to them.

[Blze001]

A few Andraste followers mixed in? Edin Prime in ME1, the doctor says "Thank the maker".



Yes. I know, ME1 came out before DA, but I played DA first.

[GodWood]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
Sorry to disagree, but;

~ snip~

Yes, yes I know all that very well (I've studied Buddhism before), the thing is thats all irrelevent because, like I stated before, the textbook definition of a relgion is:
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.
Karma is such a power, thus despite not having any deity or deities (although that really depends on the school/sect) buddhism is still a relgion

[Faerlyte]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Sorry, but atheism and the theory of evolution are separate things, and neither requires faith.

Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not cover how life originally emerged. An atheist can, however, simply say that "I do not know how life on Earth originally formed, and I choose not to believe anything on the matter." Neither evolution nor atheism requires you to have any belief regarding the origin of the universe either.

Did I say anything specific about evolution?  No. 

You seem to be confusing agnosticism and atheism.  The agnostic is the one who says "I don't know, so I do not believe anything on the matter".  The atheist says "I believe that there is no God".  That belief, in order to be rational, requires belief in methods for life to develop randomly -- whether or not that method is evolution.

I know you you can't help grabbing an opportunity to fire a salvo at the atheists of the world, but that's not what this topic is about. So why don't you find a board somewhere to debate agnosiam what will always be a point of contention until the Earth finally disintegrates and no one is left to talk about it.

WHY this is even open for discussion escapes me. Humans aren't one faith. They're neve going to be one faith. Moving on.

Modifié par Faerlyte, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[BTG_01]

In the Shadow Broker's dossier on Cerberus, it mentions that they assassinated the Pope in 2171.

[SJK93]

I think the original question has been answered: Humans have no single religion in Mass Effect. Just like the real world.

Modifié par SJK93, 14 décembre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Meshakhad2]

I think Ashley's comments more implied that atheism is the norm among spacers, not humans in general. Remember, most humans still live on Earth.



The discovery of the Prothean cache on Mars would probably have split human religions into three categories:

Inspired: New religions or sects created in the aftermath of the discovery.

Adapted: The larger mainstream religions simply modified their teachings to incorporate aliens. Genesis is mostly viewed as metaphorical. Aliens have souls, and can be redeemed. The Catholic Church was probably included among these.

Rejectionist: This is what happened to the crazy holdouts - they simply denounced anything of alien origin (including biotics) to be demonic. None of these guys ever left Earth. Nobody likes them.