48 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

Disclaimer: I’m more than aware that the following is (almost) certainly not what the writers intended. It is, of course, just an interpretation... but rather fun one that I think casts the game in a whole new light.

If Cailan is your loveable fool... look away now.

We all know that there is evidence to suggest that King Cailan Theirin of Ferelden plotted to divorce Anora and marry Empress Celene I of Orlais. But what if his deceit went even deeper than that? If we accept that uniting the crowns of Ferelden and Orlais was, indeed, Cailan's plan, just how far was he willing to go to assure such a union?

Surely even a Theirin’s grip on the throne would be tenuous at best if he suggested joining Orlais to the lords and ladies of the Landsmeet.

Allow me to suggest that:

• Cailan was only ever playing the fool (“he would have made a fine addition to a troupe of players” - Anora). No-one suspects the fool.
• Cailan saw the Blight as an opportunity and intended to cripple Ferelden’s military at Ostagar, allowing Orlais to ride in not only as allies but as desperately needed “saviours” in the wake of what would have been Loghain’s catastrophic failure
• Cailan’s presence on the front lines would, he (incorrectly) believed, guarantee Loghain’s intervention in a battle he knew the more experienced Teyrn would identify as hopeless.  Once Loghain joined the fray, however, Cailan intended to flee to safety and leave the Teyrn to die. Thus  eliminating the father of the wife he planned to divorce and the strongest opponent to any merger with Orlais. (LOL irony)
• And, wait for it....Cailan was behind Arl Howe’s attack on the  popular House of Cousland, the strongest claimants to the throne outside the Theirin line, (“many wanted [Bryce Cousland] to be king, instead of Cailan” – Darrien) and a potential rally point for those who would want him deposed in the face of an Orlesian merger. Fergus was supposed to die in the wilds and his "promise" to the surviving Cousland heir – a Grey Warden recruit and thus no longer a threat to the crown – was utterly empty, as Howe would provide Cailan with their pre-arranged “proof” of Cousland  treachery.

[*]He he he.

I’ll be blunt: I find Cailan's "simplicity" very, very difficult to swallow. It was alright when he was a “very young man” and “a child” (twenty, tops) but he’s now established as a King of around 27-29 (by The Calling and RtO). As such, I will seize any opportunity to make him more “complex” with both hands... even if that makes him into a vicious, duplicitous agent of Orlais. Though, of course, getting into bed with Orlais isn't exactly unfoolish.

I think I recall someone else suggesting that Cailan was something of an “I, Claudius” type character and only playing the fool, so this idea isn’t entirely original... but I failed to find the thread. Anyway, thoughts? Any further suggestions? Is there some way we can tie this into why he waiting so long before he married Anora? (Promised at birth and married in their early twenties? How does that make sense?) Any rebuttals? Must we see Cailan as a heroic fool who died too soon? If so, why?

And, again: HE HE HE!

[*]EDIT: gah. lists.

Modifié par Ulicus, 06 décembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[testing123]

An interesting theory.  However, if we are to believe that he is only pretending to be a fool, then he made one monumental error in logic risking his entire plan on the chivalry of a man that wears a permanent scowl on his face.  'One should never risk one's whole fortune unless supported by one's entire forces.'  Seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

I actually really enjoy a more conventional characterization of Cailan; a spoiled aristocrat growing up under the enormous shadow of his legendary (and arguably absentee) father.  I think Cailan is a good person, with a strong sense of right and wrong, but unfortunately his incredibly privileged upbringing lent itself to a naivete and idealism that didn't really hold up in an imperfect world.

I think it is debatable the actual extent of his naivete versus the massive pressure he felt to live up to his father's heroics.  I'm not certain if he is cognizant of the incredible danger he continually puts himself and does it anyway because he feels a responsibility to outshine his father's star or if he truly believes the fairy tales he was told as a child.  It's a question that keeps Cailan a compelling character for me.   

[Ulicus]

jvee wrote...

An interesting theory.  However, if we are to believe that he is only pretending to be a fool, then he made one monumental error in logic risking his entire plan on the chivalry of a man that wears a permanent scowl on his face.  'One should never risk one's whole fortune unless supported by one's entire forces.'  Seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

Alternatively: "If you want to win, you have to be willing to die".

I would agree that even on this interpretation Cailan made errors and was somewhat reckless in his scheming (could he trust any arrangement with Celene once he'd weakened his country?)... but if Loghain had been there for him all his life, no matter what, then leaving his life in his hands wasn't unjustified. Permanent scowl or no.

[Wulfram]

If Cailan wanted to cripple Ferelden's army and pave the way for an orlesian invasion, he'd have been commanding the flanking force while Loghain is left to die at Ostagar.



Though I don't see much evidence of Cailan's supposed foolishness. From what we know, the decision to fight at Ostagar was reasonable.

[Addai]

Ulicus wrote...

 

• Cailan was only ever playing the fool (“he would have made a fine addition to a troupe of players” - Anora). No-one suspects the fool.
• Cailan saw the Blight as an opportunity and intended to cripple Ferelden’s military at Ostagar, allowing Orlais to ride in not only as allies but as desperately needed “saviours” in the wake of what would have been Loghain’s catastrophic failure
  
• Cailan’s presence on the front lines would, he (incorrectly) believed, guarantee Loghain’s intervention in a battle he knew the more experienced Teyrn would identify as hopeless.  Once Loghain joined the fray, however, Cailan intended to flee to safety and leave the Teyrn to die. Thus  eliminating the father of the wife he planned to divorce and the strongest opponent to any merger with Orlais. (LOL irony)
• And, wait for it....Cailan was behind Arl Howe’s attack on the  popular House of Cousland, the strongest claimants to the throne outside the Theirin line, (“many wanted [Bryce Cousland] to be king, instead of Cailan” – Darrien) and a potential rally point for those who would want him deposed in the face of an Orlesian merger. Fergus was supposed to die in the wilds and his "promise" to the surviving Cousland heir – a Grey Warden recruit and thus no longer a threat to the crown – was utterly empty, as Howe would provide Cailan with their pre-arranged “proof” of Cousland  treachery.

[*] EDIT: gah. lists.

[*](husband posting)
[*]This Cailan still ends up being a fool just a different kind of fool.    He basically ends up putting whole lot (presumably) in secret agreements with Celene when he has no guarantee of her living up to them.
[*] He doesnot take into account how likely things do not "go according to plan".   Not to mention the adage "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush".
[*]His plan is Stuntman level risky, and for a person that has never been a stuntman that's just plain dumb.

[CalJones]

I am more in accordance with jvee's line of thinking - Cailan as the flamboyant young man desperate to escape his father's shadow.

[Ulicus]

Wulfram wrote...

If Cailan wanted to cripple Ferelden's army and pave the way for an orlesian invasion, he'd have been commanding the flanking force while Loghain is left to die at Ostagar.

Except then there would have been no massacre.

Recall that there was absolutely no need for either Cailan or Loghain to be on the front lines. Even if Cailan ordered Loghain to go stand at the front while he waited in the wings to flank, Loghain -- thinking the battle was an entirely stupid idea -- would not have signalled the beacon for the charge. He would, instead, have retreated long before it was necessary.

No, the only way Cailan could "guarantee" (obviously, he was wrong) Loghain would get involved was by putting himself -- the son of Maric and Rowan -- in harm's way. He was the bait. And maybe he genuinely underestimated the threat to some extent, as well.

Risky though it may be, it's a more sensible rationale than "glorious!"

Addai67 wrote...



[*]
[*](husband posting)
[*]This Cailan still ends up
being a fool just a different kind of fool.    He basically ends up
putting whole lot (presumably) in secret agreements with Celene when he
has no guarantee of her living up to them.
[*] He doesnot take
into account how likely things do not "go according to plan".   Not to
mention the adage "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush".
[*]His plan is Stuntman level risky, and for a person that has never been a stuntman that's just plain dumb.

Cailan's arrangements with Celene, and his putting a considerable amount of faith in them, occur independently of any interpretation. That's simply a fact of the character. Certainly, what he does is risky... but I'm more interested in him as a character who understands that his country would not have just let him divorce the Hero of River Dane's daughter, marry Celene and unite the nations. If he's a guy who was banging on about fairy tales and glory while taking steps to eliminate those who would oppose him, however? Fun. Dancing with death? Sure. But the priiiiize?

CalJones wrote...

I am more in accordance with jvee's line
of thinking - Cailan as the flamboyant young man desperate to escape
his father's shadow.

A flamboyant man, desperate to escape his father's shadow. He's in his late twenties. Maric and Loghain were young men in TST. Cailan is not a young man in Origins. Though you could argue that's one of the factors that makes him reckless. Heh, that would be interesting in itself: Cailan constantly insisting that he was a "very young man", with Loghain's use of the phrase at Ostagar being ironic.... Mmm. I quite like that.

Modifié par Ulicus, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Addai]

(Husband)

Can you really seperate a character from the motivation that is driving them?   I kind of have my doubts.  Certainly joining forces or merging kingdoms of what was previously "enemy #1" is a big leap. 

the way it plays out in game, doesn't seem that bad from a modern players perspective.  It about like getting a few divisions from another country to fight a Korean War, Afghanistan, Iraq sort of police action.   But deliberately throwning a fight... it takes a lot to make that work with "the suspension of disbelief".

Modifié par Addai67, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[CalJones]

Cut me some slack. I'm 43 - anyone under 30 is young as far as I'm concerned. But in any case, my understanding of the timeline is that Cailan is around 25, with Anora being slightly older and Alistair being around 21.

As for Loghain, Cailan is half his age so of course he sees him as young. It's true that Loghain and Maric were destroying Orlesians at an even younger age but both had lost their mothers under horrific circumstances and had had to grow up fast. Cailan's upbringing was a lot less stressful, despite the death of his own mother at a young age. He's had his head filled with tales of Maric's exploits from a young age and doubtless feels a lot of pressure to fill his very large shoes, especially as he is now (in Origins) older than Maric was when he kicked the Orlesians out of Fereldan. He's trying to create his own legend, and the Blight seems like an ideal opportunity. However, he doesn't appear to take it as seriously as he should (perhaps because the initial battles were won so easily) which becomes his downfall.

I don't think he was a complete fool, for all his bluster - but I don't think he was all that smart either. Had the Celene-Cailan marriage happened, I have little doubt that she would have run rings around him and reduced Fereldan to a vassal state.

[Maria13]

Dude 'I, Claudius' that was me about a year ago: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/629837/3

Modifié par Maria13, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think Cailan's problem was measuring up to Maric. It's about measuring himself up to Loghain. Loghain and Anora have been undermining him for his entire reign, but he's finally trying to break free. To do that, he needs to prove himself. Which is perhaps one reason why Loghain ensures that he fails.



Celene might have run rings round Cailan, but she'd soon have learnt how little that matters with the Bannorn and Landsmeet still there to preserve Ferelden's independence.

[CalJones]

I don't know that Loghain and Anora have been undermining Cailan - I don't see any evidence of that in game. What I get from the game is that Cailan is a preening fop who would rather booze it up with the wardens than discuss battle strategy, who viewed himself as some sort of storybook hero and who was screwing around on his wife. If Loghain wanted Cailan to fail it was because he was making overtures towards the Orlesians, not out of any sense of rivalry.

[Ulicus]

CalJones wrote...

Cut me some slack. I'm 43 - anyone under 30 is young as far as I'm concerned. But in any case, my understanding of the timeline is that Cailan is around 25, with Anora being slightly older and Alistair being around 21.

Oh, yeah, I'd generally refer to anyone under thirty as young, too... but not in the context of a medieval fantasy setting. Though that does depend on the setting. I guess. And, looking back on The Calling -- if we can take the times given at face value -- Cailan may actually be around twenty-six.

Though this makes Alistair -- if he IS Fiona's son -- sixteen/seventeen, which hammers home how young a "very young man" would be in the setting. Dawson's Casting FTW?

CalJones wrote...
As for Loghain, Cailan is half his age so of course he sees him as young. It's true that Loghain and Maric were destroying Orlesians at an even younger age but both had lost their mothers under horrific circumstances and had had to grow up fast. Cailan's upbringing was a lot less stressful, despite the death of his own mother at a young age. He's had his head filled with tales of Maric's exploits from a young age and doubtless feels a lot of pressure to fill his very large shoes, especially as he is now (in Origins) older than Maric was when he kicked the Orlesians out of Fereldan. He's trying to create his own legend, and the Blight seems like an ideal opportunity. However, he doesn't appear to take it as seriously as he should (perhaps because the initial battles were won so easily) which becomes his downfall.

I don't think he was a complete fool, for all his bluster - but I don't think he was all that smart either. Had the Celene-Cailan marriage happened, I have little doubt that she would have run rings around him and reduced Fereldan to a vassal state.

I think thats a perfectly sensible interpretation.  I would certainly agree that what I suggest in the OP is "out there" but, at the same time, I'm just offering it as a take. It certainly isn't without its flaws.

I have to admit, though, a part of me is just super-enamored with the idea that he'd order the murder of House Cousland and then lie about it right in front of a surviving son/daughter. It makes me cackle. As would the irony of Cailan plotting to betray Loghain, only to completely misjudge how far the Teyrn was willing to go for him, and dying because of it.

It isn't in keeping with the little boy we see at the end of The Stolen Throne... but even Darth Vader was a kid, once.

And I've been reading too much G.R.R.Martin, and now naturally assume good looking blond guys in shining gold armour are terrible people.

Maria13 wrote...

Dude 'I, Claudius' that was me about a year ago: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/629837/3

Awesome. Well it stuck with me.

Modifié par Ulicus, 06 décembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

I don't know that Loghain and Anora have been undermining Cailan - I don't see any evidence of that in game.

Loghain's willingness to express his contempt for Cailan widely is fairly obvious - he basically calls him an idiot to someone who he's only just met.
Anora probably wouldn't have seen it that way, but she clearly took a great deal of satisfaction from being the intelligent one who took the important decisions her endearingly foolish husband couldn't.
Both of the Mac Tirs seem to have been determined that it not be Cailan who actually rules.

What I get from the game is that Cailan is a preening fop who would rather booze it up with the wardens than discuss battle strategy, who viewed himself as some sort of storybook hero and who was screwing around on his wife. If Loghain wanted Cailan to fail it was because he was making overtures towards the Orlesians, not out of any sense of rivalry.

I'm not suggesting Loghain felt a sense of rivalry.  He was simply unwilling to allow Cailan to rule, and follow policies of his own devising.  Given that after Ostagar he was also unwilling to allow Anora to exercise any power - and indeed allowed her to be locked up as soon as she showed any evidence of backbone - I don't think he was willing for anyone except Maric to truly be King.

[nos_astra]

Ulicus wrote...
Recall that there was absolutely no need for either Cailan or Loghain to be on the front lines.

Other than tradition, remember that Ferelden is based on the barbarian Alamarri. Their nobility is based on a tradition of warlords (called bann, arl and teyrn based on their importance and strength).

Ulicus wrote...
Though this makes Alistair -- if he IS Fiona's
son -- sixteen/seventeen, which hammers home how young a "very young
man" would be in the setting. Dawson's Casting FTW?

Cailan is younger than Anora by two or three years and Anora is approaching thirty. Alistair is 5-6 years younger than Cailan (if he's Fiona's son).

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[CalJones]

@OP - yes it's definitely a fun idea. I'm also thinking of Janny Wurts' Light and Shadow books where the young blond king is a good guy on the surface but actually a real bastard, whilst his dark-haired nemesis turns out to be the hero.

[Sarah1281]

Celene might have run rings round Cailan, but she'd soon have learnt how little that matters with the Bannorn and Landsmeet still there to preserve Ferelden's independence.

The Bannorn/Landsmeet might throw a wrench in the marriage plans but once that's done then I don't see how they're supposed to stop Celene and her huge Orlesian army and legitimate marriage to the legitimate monarch from running things.

Loghain's willingness to express his contempt for Cailan widely is fairly obvious - he basically calls him an idiot to someone who he's only just met.
Anora probably wouldn't have seen it that way, but she clearly took a great deal of satisfaction from being the intelligent one who took the important decisions her endearingly foolish husband couldn't.
Both of the Mac Tirs seem to have been determined that it not be Cailan who actually rules.

Anora officially didn't have any power, though, just being the consort of the dead king and she didn't have an army since Cailan's was wiped out. Cailan DID have an army so it's not like Loghain could use his to force Cailan to act in his way. Cailan's behavior also indicates that he's not in the habit of Loghain forcing him to do anything. From Anora, we find out that when Loghain thought Cailan was acting stupid he wouldn't rest until he had convinced Cailan otherwise, but Cailan was still the one who allowed himself to be persuaded. You could argue that if Cailan hadn't, something might have befallen him before Ostagar but that's really speculation. Besides, Cailan really didn't seem all that interested in the day-to-day aspects of ruling which is why he left Anora in charge. It's one thing to be prevented from ruling and to have your rule undermined and it's quite another to voluntarily leave your far-more-capable spouse in charge while you go out seeking glory and adventure.

Edit: I think this is the thread you were looking for, OP. Be careful, though. Getting even slightly off-topic will get you yelled at.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 06 décembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

A very interesting and fascinating theory, one that would be fun to speculate on.



Except that in accepting such a theory, by default, you would be giving Cailan credit for an abundance of intelligence and cunning that he simply lacks.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Interesting theory. That just makes Cailan a fool of another kind. I kind of prefer his candid stupidity.

[Giggles_Manically]

Required Calian post:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

^^^ That pretty much sums up Cailan in one pciture, one word.

[Addai]

(wife posting)

I love your theory, OP.  I do love plots within plots. I'll just suggest that Cailan could simply have been banking on a big win at Ostagar to get the support he needed for an Orlesian alliance. Some of the nobles would have gone along with him, although not without heartburn.  If he was Cailan the Savior, though, he could get enough of them to do it.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 décembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[atunnei]

I agree with addai. If Cailan becomes Cailan the savior then he will have the clout to get things done. Look at the Warden. We gain enough support to overthrow Loghain through some semi-trivial actions and words. Imagine if Cailan destryoed the Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

(wife posting)

I love your theory, OP.  I do love plots within plots. I'll just suggest that Cailan could simply have been banking on a big win at Ostagar to get the support he needed for an Orlesian alliance. Some of the nobles would have gone along with him, although not without heartburn.  If he was Cailan the Savior, though, he could get enough of them to do it.

A more intelligent plan would have been to let the Orlesians, under his so called command, save Ferelden. Then the marriage would have been more legitimate.

Being a savior is not enough in Ferelden. Had Maric decided to marry the Orlesian empress, I don't think anyone would have been happy about it.