417 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

I remember NG+. We complained a lot for it, and Bioware eventually had this thread on why we wanted NG+ and what it meant to us etc. and eventually it led to it being implemented because the cost was deemed to be worth it re: fan satisfaction.

But, but THEY ARE BEING UNREASONABLE!  Take whatever Bioware GIVES you!  It's GAMING PERFECTION!  You are GOD DAMNED lucky to be graced by whatever Bioware puts out!

Yes, this is retarded.  Yes, this is exactly how some of you treat detractors here (but in the opposite direction), and it's as nonsensical as that prior statement was.  The **** needs to stop.  Yes, some people are going to ask for unreasonable things, it happens all of the time.  But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...


But, but THEY ARE BEING UNREASONABLE!  Take whatever Bioware GIVES you!  It's GAMING PERFECTION!  You are GOD DAMNED lucky to be graced by whatever Bioware puts out!

This thread is still useless. Bioware rushing the game or not is impossible for us to determine until maybe when we have the game in our hands. It would be better to start a campaign for (for example) a free-roam camera is instead of the character locked camera we are getting, i.e. a feature instead of some confusing broad criticism.

 

Yes, this is retarded.  Yes, this is exactly how some of you treat detractors here (but in the opposite direction), and it's as nonsensical as that prior statement was.  The **** needs to stop.  Yes, some people are going to ask for unreasonable things, it happens all of the time.  But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about.

[Ziggeh]

Harid wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I remember NG+. We complained a lot for it, and Bioware eventually had this thread on why we wanted NG+ and what it meant to us etc. and eventually it led to it being implemented because the cost was deemed to be worth it re: fan satisfaction.

But, but THEY ARE BEING UNREASONABLE!  Take whatever Bioware GIVES you!  It's GAMING PERFECTION!  You are GOD DAMNED lucky to be graced by whatever Bioware puts out!

Yes, this is retarded.  Yes, this is exactly how some of you treat detractors here (but in the opposite direction), and it's as nonsensical as that prior statement was.  The **** needs to stop.  Yes, some people are going to ask for unreasonable things, it happens all of the time.  But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

Criticism of criticism leads to better critcism. Shouting "it's unreasonable" at people who are being reasonable would be unreasonable.

People complaining certainly can lead to positive things, but if those complaints can't hold up to scrutiny, they're probably unjustified.

edit: I should qualify, reasonable scrutiny.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Atakuma]

Harid wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I remember NG+. We complained a lot for it, and Bioware eventually had this thread on why we wanted NG+ and what it meant to us etc. and eventually it led to it being implemented because the cost was deemed to be worth it re: fan satisfaction.

But, but THEY ARE BEING UNREASONABLE!  Take whatever Bioware GIVES you!  It's GAMING PERFECTION!  You are GOD DAMNED lucky to be graced by whatever Bioware puts out!

Yes, this is retarded.  Yes, this is exactly how some of you treat detractors here (but in the opposite direction), and it's as nonsensical as that prior statement was.  The **** needs to stop.  Yes, some people are going to ask for unreasonable things, it happens all of the time.  But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

No one is saying you shouldn't complain. They are saying you shouldn't be an ass about it.

[Harid]

Atakuma wrote...

Harid wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I remember NG+. We complained a lot for it, and Bioware eventually had this thread on why we wanted NG+ and what it meant to us etc. and eventually it led to it being implemented because the cost was deemed to be worth it re: fan satisfaction.

But, but THEY ARE BEING UNREASONABLE!  Take whatever Bioware GIVES you!  It's GAMING PERFECTION!  You are GOD DAMNED lucky to be graced by whatever Bioware puts out!

Yes, this is retarded.  Yes, this is exactly how some of you treat detractors here (but in the opposite direction), and it's as nonsensical as that prior statement was.  The **** needs to stop.  Yes, some people are going to ask for unreasonable things, it happens all of the time.  But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

No one is saying you shouldn't complain. They are saying you shouldn't be an ass about it.

Yes, some of you guys say that now, after moving goal posts like you did earlier in this thread, when some of you stated all complaints were unreasonable.  I expect to be now called a hypocrite and the cycle can continue.

Think I am done with this thread, it will change nothing.  I expect the next complaint thread to evolve into ****, like every single complaint thread inevitably does.

Modifié par Harid, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Ziggeh]

Harid wrote...

Yes, some of you guys say that now, after moving goal posts like you did earlier in this thread, when some of you stated all complaints were unreasonable.  I expect to be now called a hypocrite and the cycle can continue.

I'm not sure anyone did state that all complaints were unreasonable, and I already pointed to a piece in which you were hypocritical, so we're ahead of schedule at least.

[crimzontearz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

If there is no criticism there is no improvement.

Quoted for truth.

That includes self-criticism and internal (as in, among Bioware developers) criticism, though.  If you're going to claim that only external criticism drives improvement... well, that's just not true. 

but they are not making them game for themselves, they are making it for a public, the criticism they should pay the most attention to is the one coming from their target not from themselves. Hell Silicon Knights believed Too Human was going to be AWESOME even tho people who played the demos told them it sucked immensely.

And sometimes even Bioware devs end up falling to their own hubris (remember the whole "we are not going to allow you to give yourself an option we KNOW will diminish your experience" comment in regard to a toggle that allowed you to see ahead of time what each Dialog Wheel reply was going to be in its entirety?)

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

If there is no criticism there is no improvement.

Quoted for truth.

That includes self-criticism and internal (as in, among Bioware developers) criticism, though.  If you're going to claim that only external criticism drives improvement... well, that's just not true. 

You just couldn't resist. Any creative person knows outside input is invaluable. Spend enough time with a project, and you don't know what to fix.

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

[In Exile]

crimzontearz wrote...

but they are not making them game for themselves, they are making it for a public, the criticism they should pay the most attention to is the one coming from their target not from themselves. Hell Silicon Knights believed Too Human was going to be AWESOME even tho people who played the demos told them it sucked immensely.

And sometimes even Bioware devs end up falling to their own hubris (remember the whole "we are not going to allow you to give yourself an option we KNOW will diminish your experience" comment in regard to a toggle that allowed you to see ahead of time what each Dialog Wheel reply was going to be in its entirety?)

The problem is who to listen to. If Bioware listens to me, they're making an unplayable game for Sylvius the Mad. If they listen to him, they're making an unplayable game for me. The problem with external criticism is that it is very fraught with idiosyncracy.

Look at NG+. It was about a specific feature, it was clear what implementation would cost/warrant, there was a general campaign from the entire forum community, and eventually Bioware was brought around.

If we complained as a group about one thing we could all agree on, I'm sure it could make an impact if Bioware has not locked down a feature. Hell, it might still have an impact in a future release. But it has to be more than just some dude and his preference. And we rarely have this in DA:O.

Most of the criticism is ''Oh noes! Hack & Slash!'' or ''Oh noes! Silent PC was better than VO!''. One is inaccurate (or so says Bioware) while the other is a central feature of the game they aren't going to change.

We need focused, coherent and clearly implementable criticsm to make an impact.

[In Exile]

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

This is what I'm talking about. I really like the design. I think it improves on the disciple design they piloted in Awakening, which is already a better design than flesh-rotting zombies. Obviously, other people will disagree. But who does Bioware listen to?

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

You just couldn't resist.

Resist correcting misleading absolute statements that demand more nuance?  Never.

slimgrin wrote...

Any creative person knows outside input is invaluable. Spend enough time with a project, and you don't know what to fix.

I agree.   That being said, Bioware is a big place not some mom-and-pop with a handful of people doing every job.  They can get outside perspective from people whose opinions they deem valuable enough to send monthly paychecks for their services, as opposed to the hit or miss (at best) commentary of forum users.

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

Says you.  Maybe even says me.  That's a pretty bad example, considering it's a purely visual change and subject to individual aesthetic preferences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:30 .

[crimzontearz]

In Exile wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

but they are not making them game for themselves, they are making it for a public, the criticism they should pay the most attention to is the one coming from their target not from themselves. Hell Silicon Knights believed Too Human was going to be AWESOME even tho people who played the demos told them it sucked immensely.

And sometimes even Bioware devs end up falling to their own hubris (remember the whole "we are not going to allow you to give yourself an option we KNOW will diminish your experience" comment in regard to a toggle that allowed you to see ahead of time what each Dialog Wheel reply was going to be in its entirety?)

The problem is who to listen to. If Bioware listens to me, they're making an unplayable game for Sylvius the Mad. If they listen to him, they're making an unplayable game for me. The problem with external criticism is that it is very fraught with idiosyncracy.

Look at NG+. It was about a specific feature, it was clear what implementation would cost/warrant, there was a general campaign from the entire forum community, and eventually Bioware was brought around.

If we complained as a group about one thing we could all agree on, I'm sure it could make an impact if Bioware has not locked down a feature. Hell, it might still have an impact in a future release. But it has to be more than just some dude and his preference. And we rarely have this in DA:O.

Most of the criticism is ''Oh noes! Hack & Slash!'' or ''Oh noes! Silent PC was better than VO!''. One is inaccurate (or so says Bioware) while the other is a central feature of the game they aren't going to change.

We need focused, coherent and clearly implementable criticsm to make an impact.

correct.....which brings me back to that GI article

[Bryy_Miller]

Harid wrote...
But people complaining obviously, can lead to positive change.  Bioware is smart enough to use the good ideas posted here if it fits into their dev schedule, and that's what most reasonable people want.

*peeks into thread*

You do realize Stanley Woo replied to this very topic, right?

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

Says you.  Maybe even says me.  That's a pretty bad example, considering it's a purely visual change and subject to individual aesthetic preferences.

True, but make something visually goofy enough and regardless of the subjective nature of the visual change, it can be clear if a good chunk of people don't care for something- exhibit A being the condom mage hats in Origins. I'm guessing somebody liked them enough to put them in the game, and probably some people liked them in Origins, but I'm guessing not many.

[slimgrin]

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

This is what I'm talking about. I really like the design. I think it improves on the disciple design they piloted in Awakening, which is already a better design than flesh-rotting zombies. Obviously, other people will disagree. But who does Bioware listen to?

They should to listen to themselves first and foremost, not arguing that. But they also need input from industry experts not associated with the project. They don't need input from us, because we're just here to voice concerns, adoration, and such. Most forum goers have little or no experience making games. Were not professionals.

We all like to put our 2 cents in anyways, but it's the experts they should listen to.

[Maria Caliban]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Harid wrote...

I said people do it.  Heck, you are doing it right now.

What I'm doing is calling you out on your logical fallacy. You say I'm wrong. Then I'm suggesting otherwise and you cannot confirm. Do you or do you not? And if you want to throw the unreasonable KFC customers in the mix, let me put it this way: Do you share their lack of common sense or do you not?

I complained about the Double Down when I heard about it. I really love the commercials about it being a 'manly' burger. Apparently 'manly' is a secret code for 'dead at 63 from coronary disease.'

Seriously, how can pot be illegal when they sell crap like this for human consumption?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Harid]

slimgrin wrote...

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

This is what I'm talking about. I really like the design. I think it improves on the disciple design they piloted in Awakening, which is already a better design than flesh-rotting zombies. Obviously, other people will disagree. But who does Bioware listen to?

They should to listen to themselves first and foremost, not arguing that. But they also need input from industry experts not associated with the project. They don't need input from us, because we're just here to voice concerns, adoration, and such. Most forum goers have little or no experience making games. Were not professionals.

We all like to put our 2 cents in anyways, but it's the experts they should listen to.

If you don't listen to your customers, you die like Blockbuster Video.

Bioware isn't Nintendo big, where they could essentially, tell their fans to bugger off if they chose to, and be ok financially.

[In Exile]

crimzontearz wrote...
correct.....which brings me back to that GI article

I'm sorry? I don't understand what you mean.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Harid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Harid wrote...

I said people do it.  Heck, you are doing it right now.

What I'm doing is calling you out on your logical fallacy. You say I'm wrong. Then I'm suggesting otherwise and you cannot confirm. Do you or do you not? And if you want to throw the unreasonable KFC customers in the mix, let me put it this way: Do you share their lack of common sense or do you not?

I complained about the Double Down when I heard about it. I really love the commercials about it being a 'manly' burger. Apparently 'manly' is a secret code for 'dead at 63 from coronary disease.'

Seriously, how can pot be illegal when they sell crap like this for human consumption?

It's really no worse than 2 slices of pizza, if not better, and most people can down 2 slices of pizza.

I think a lot of people complain about fast food when the root of the problem is their lack of discipline.

But I digress.  Not even gonna get started on pot.

[In Exile]

I'm just going to point out I am constantly perplexed by the fact people willingly consume bacon. That is all.

[Bryy_Miller]

Harid wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Exhibit A: Darkspawn design. Clearly needed more outside input.

This is what I'm talking about. I really like the design. I think it improves on the disciple design they piloted in Awakening, which is already a better design than flesh-rotting zombies. Obviously, other people will disagree. But who does Bioware listen to?

They should to listen to themselves first and foremost, not arguing that. But they also need input from industry experts not associated with the project. They don't need input from us, because we're just here to voice concerns, adoration, and such. Most forum goers have little or no experience making games. Were not professionals.

We all like to put our 2 cents in anyways, but it's the experts they should listen to.

If you don't listen to your customers, you die like Blockbuster Video.

Blockbuster is actually doing okay now that they have Blockbuster Express. Everyone loves a comeback.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...

I'm just going to point out I am constantly perplexed by the fact people willingly consume bacon. That is all.

[addiction21]

In Exile wrote...

I'm just going to point out I am constantly perplexed by the fact people willingly consume bacon. That is all.

It is a very healthy and nutritious food. Not sure how you can not like it.

[Maugrim]

When DAII comes out it will have been in development for a minimum of 2 and probably closer to 2 1/2- 3 years if you figure that as there jobs wrapped up some people undoubtedly went into sequel planning mode. Remember DAO was pushed back for polishing for six months and the game was basically finished for the PC in Feb of 2009. And as much as I liked Awakening and the various DLC there were all relative rush jobs that amount to very, very polished mods that had financial backing. That's half the development time of DA:O without having to do any of the heavy lifting of world, engine or story creation.

/thread

ETA: Yeah I didn't read the whole thread but even if it was mentioned earlier and the thread is (rightfully) headed of the rails it deserves mentioning again.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 07 décembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Brockololly]

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 07 décembre 2010 - 06:34 .